Frank,
You have made an 'interesting' debut......
What exactly are you trying to prove here? The triumph of scientific logic over human foible?
Kanwar,
Thank you for your post. We are flattered you are with us, guys, Kanwar is a brilliant young EE from India with a superb, creative mind, we have had many long discussions in the past and I welcome him here. I'm proud to say I agree with most of his technical ideas, too.
Ron,
Great to see you here, thanks for the nice post! I'm working on our mutual project today, slowly I'm getting there..... we are in the middle of a week long heatwave over 34C and I'm NOT enjoying it much!
More to follow.....
Hugh
You have made an 'interesting' debut......
What exactly are you trying to prove here? The triumph of scientific logic over human foible?
Kanwar,
Thank you for your post. We are flattered you are with us, guys, Kanwar is a brilliant young EE from India with a superb, creative mind, we have had many long discussions in the past and I welcome him here. I'm proud to say I agree with most of his technical ideas, too.
Ron,
Great to see you here, thanks for the nice post! I'm working on our mutual project today, slowly I'm getting there..... we are in the middle of a week long heatwave over 34C and I'm NOT enjoying it much!
More to follow.....
Hugh
Last edited:
Hugh,
Don’t fret. There’s no need to rush, Rome, similar in size, wasn’t built in one day, under 34C conditions (working in which today would violate a plethora of EU labor laws). If you’re not enjoying the work, put it down, relax, the institute of Noetic Sciences warns us about these things
I’m somewhere between Florida and Turks & Caicos still pondering the question of where to post
Groetjes,
Don’t fret. There’s no need to rush, Rome, similar in size, wasn’t built in one day, under 34C conditions (working in which today would violate a plethora of EU labor laws). If you’re not enjoying the work, put it down, relax, the institute of Noetic Sciences warns us about these things
I’m somewhere between Florida and Turks & Caicos still pondering the question of where to post
Groetjes,
Hello
That remember me that, more than an hundred years ago, the head of an european science academy said that there was no more discovery to do since everything was discovered. Science and measurements have their limit and there is still lot to learn.
In audio, there is guys who think that we can measure everything.
Ten years ago I was certain that the distortions measurements and slew rate say it all about an amps, a but after listening dozen of high-end amps since few years (valve and transistors), doing measurements and having hundred of amps schematics, I know that distortions measurements don't say everything and for two amps with same thd , spectrum, slew rate, etc, you will get one amp with a boring liveless sound and the other one will sound alive and with a 3d sound and colorless.
Bye
Gaetan
Last edited:
Hello Major,
Thanxz for the nice words.
I hope in the future we will be having more of such long discussions too
Kanwar
Not as such, however, you said it yourself; liking the sound of a valve amp doesn't mean that it is objectively better, only that you like the sound. As soon as claims of superiority are made, the discussion moves from personal preference to objective evaluation. Most people are not prepared to admit that their senses are (extremely) fallible and that they engage in self-deception; it is, afterall, a prevailing human trait.
Science has given us what we now have and it is disengenuous of people to claim their senses are superior to the methods of evaluation that are available. Interestingly, when it is pointed out, instead of acceptance, (many) people become defensive and aggressive or resort to gems like this:
Certainly, wax lyrically about things you prefer but please don't claim that you know better than what objective evidence can show otherwise.
I KNOW my perception differs over time and with mood and many other factors. That is why I will put on one CD and not another but I won't make claims that are based solely on what I like at a particular time.
Frank
Hmmm,
Frankly, I think the aggression and defensiveness is all yours, though couched in intellectual terms..... you are saying that people are not seeing it right, that their self-deception urgently needs to be corrected. This is an interesting arrogance; given that no one knows anything about anyone else over the internet, you may be justified intellectually, but not morally.
This approach is far from relativism, it is a form of intellectual fascism. I am the first to realise that SQ is a matter of taste, much like food, or paintings, or music itself; but I cordially condemn any voice which insists that self-awareness or political/engineering correctness is a compulsory feature of all audio assessment.
Furthermore, I'd point out that:
1. Intelligence lies on a bell curve. The very bright owe the very stupid a debt of gratitude; there is a 1:1 mapping which is surely more than coincidence.
2. SQ is subjective, but musical enjoyment is very important, aye, veritably a part of life, to many people. Music is hardly an objective artform, could never be described as engineering. Presuming to draw attention to the audio preferences of others because they are 'objectively' deluded is bound to draw sharp criticism.
Welcome to our nightmare, Frank, but please, do behave......
Cheers,
Hugh
Frankly, I think the aggression and defensiveness is all yours, though couched in intellectual terms..... you are saying that people are not seeing it right, that their self-deception urgently needs to be corrected. This is an interesting arrogance; given that no one knows anything about anyone else over the internet, you may be justified intellectually, but not morally.
This approach is far from relativism, it is a form of intellectual fascism. I am the first to realise that SQ is a matter of taste, much like food, or paintings, or music itself; but I cordially condemn any voice which insists that self-awareness or political/engineering correctness is a compulsory feature of all audio assessment.
Furthermore, I'd point out that:
1. Intelligence lies on a bell curve. The very bright owe the very stupid a debt of gratitude; there is a 1:1 mapping which is surely more than coincidence.
2. SQ is subjective, but musical enjoyment is very important, aye, veritably a part of life, to many people. Music is hardly an objective artform, could never be described as engineering. Presuming to draw attention to the audio preferences of others because they are 'objectively' deluded is bound to draw sharp criticism.
Welcome to our nightmare, Frank, but please, do behave......
Cheers,
Hugh
Then we disagree, while noting the inherent arrogance of your statement.
Spoken as a true relativist.
Implying that I have misbehaved instead of making assertions that you haven't directly challenged. Making a reference to morality is indeed a strange notion; what it has to do with is beyond me.
The last two points, equally, defy my understanding. I understand the bell curve distribution but its use in this discussion and the reference to "more than a coincidence" is something that requires explanation.
Since you have used an ad hominem defence, though couched in passive language, means to me that any further postings are pointless. I understand your commercial imperative but I did expect less "playing the man".
Frank
Hello Frank
If you plan to measure subtle differences in sound quality between power
amps, it takes much more than THD measurements and a spectrum analysing of a static sine wave test signal as this will not reveal the most important property of an amps: Dynamic response to complex signals like a recording of an orchestra with many different musical instruments being played at the same time, producing highly complex harmonics patterns.
Without an engaging and musical sound an amps are just not good enough. Despite all those personal tastes maters a good amp are a good sounding amp and not the one with the best measurements result.
You are welcome to give your opinions but please be polite and respectfull.
Bye
Gaetan
If you plan to measure subtle differences in sound quality between power
amps, it takes much more than THD measurements and a spectrum analysing of a static sine wave test signal as this will not reveal the most important property of an amps: Dynamic response to complex signals like a recording of an orchestra with many different musical instruments being played at the same time, producing highly complex harmonics patterns.
Without an engaging and musical sound an amps are just not good enough. Despite all those personal tastes maters a good amp are a good sounding amp and not the one with the best measurements result.
You are welcome to give your opinions but please be polite and respectfull.
Bye
Gaetan
Let me give this statement the force of a moderators warning
(it is Hugh's forum, any action would require his input)
dave
Well, well, well,
The Milky Bar Kid turns up again.
Would the people who implore me to be "polite and respectful", please point out instances where I have not been. There is a vast difference between not liking what I've said and these claims, unless, of course, arbitrary censoring based soleley on opinions is to become a feature of this forum.
If anything, I've been objective and couched my statements in reasonable language. Where I have responded in slightly intemperate terms, it has been reflective of the language used in prior postings.
I know we live in bizarre politically correct times, but if anyone is "offended" by my choice of words and the opinion I am stating, I suggest the problem is theirs and demands for "respect" and politeness are excessive and border on ridiculous. If these forums don't foster robust discussion, what is the point of them existing?
Frank
The Milky Bar Kid turns up again.
Would the people who implore me to be "polite and respectful", please point out instances where I have not been. There is a vast difference between not liking what I've said and these claims, unless, of course, arbitrary censoring based soleley on opinions is to become a feature of this forum.
If anything, I've been objective and couched my statements in reasonable language. Where I have responded in slightly intemperate terms, it has been reflective of the language used in prior postings.
I know we live in bizarre politically correct times, but if anyone is "offended" by my choice of words and the opinion I am stating, I suggest the problem is theirs and demands for "respect" and politeness are excessive and border on ridiculous. If these forums don't foster robust discussion, what is the point of them existing?
Frank
Hi Hugh,
I hope you don't mind me getting this thread back on track, I'd be interested in any updates you may have with regards to the "New Soraya".
Also, as you've obviously had more listening experience with the LF100, the Old Soraya and the New Soraya, what loudspeakers did you find matched particularly well with your amps (- besides VSonics
)?Needless to say, anyone "out there" with listening experience, I'd be very grateful!
Any new loudspeaker designs on the horizon?
Groetjes, Hugh!
Trouble is you're taking an extreme objectivist view which isn't entirely justified either is it? We have to be objective and subjective. The fallibility lies not only with our senses but with measurements too and moreover how we relate the former to the latter.
Ron,
I never owned the original LF100 but had listened to Hugh’s demonstrator for some time in my system prior to buying the LF100 Mk2 that morphed name-wise into the original Soraya, added Platinum input caps and then ultimately upgraded to the Soraya 09. So I can have a go at answering your question.
I have Vandersteen 3ASigs (no sub) and find they work beautifully with the amp. Not really difficult to drive but certainly not the most efficient speakers around. They are nominally 6 Ohm though go down to 4 and the Soraya drives the load with absolute ease. It somehow just seems to have more power than it’s rated at.
Through the evolution of the amp, the fundamentals have not changed much and the LF100 remains a fine amp IMO. I think the improvements sum up as small progressive refinements in distortion reduction giving increased clarity, detail and drive. Attack and decay are impeccable as are layering and soundstage. This gives the Soraya 09 even more accuracy and a noticeable 'presence'. There is also a small increase in base extension that has made it very punchy and natural down low. So in summary; probably only a few percentage points improvement overall but quite noticeable IMO and I'm wrapt.
Lyn, thanks for the headz up, appreciated.
Ron,
The chief difference between LF100 Mk II (the first Soraya module, in fact, the one you have) and the latest Soraya module is in bass and low midrange. I can explain this in technical terms from an analysis of the input stage, which is very different to conventional amps, including the LF series. There is thus more impact and slam at a visceral level, and a more vivid presentation generally, whatever the heck that means..... (words are so inadequate). The qualities of clarity, resolution and imaging are much the same, and you would have to describe these differences as musical.
There is no difference in FR; they spec almost identically. Distortion at +20dBU (13.1 watts into 8R) is -84dB H2, and -86dB H3, as follows at 1KHz into 8R//2nF:
Harmonic Frequency Fourier Normalized Phase Normalized
Number [Hz] Component Component [degree] Phase [deg]
1 1.000e+03 1.328e+01 1.000e+00 0.04° 0.00°
2 2.000e+03 8.705e-04 6.553e-05 -88.13° -88.17°
3 3.000e+03 6.572e-04 4.948e-05 -174.31° -174.35°
4 4.000e+03 2.292e-04 1.725e-05 94.00° 93.96°
5 5.000e+03 5.230e-04 3.937e-05 -174.13° -174.17°
6 6.000e+03 1.165e-04 8.774e-06 97.54° 97.50°
7 7.000e+03 9.602e-05 7.229e-06 -165.27° -165.31°
8 8.000e+03 7.260e-05 5.465e-06 102.11° 102.07°
9 9.000e+03 6.501e-05 4.894e-06 -5.15° -5.19°
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.009367%
These are simulated with good models in LTSpice, and they sound very close, you never hear anything vaguely resembling grainy sound or broken detail.
All Aspen amps, including the original AKSAs, are stable into electrostatic (cf. highly capacitive) loads, and very carefully compensated with silver mica caps.
Hope this helps, a bit more objective, based on specs!
Hugh
Ron,
The chief difference between LF100 Mk II (the first Soraya module, in fact, the one you have) and the latest Soraya module is in bass and low midrange. I can explain this in technical terms from an analysis of the input stage, which is very different to conventional amps, including the LF series. There is thus more impact and slam at a visceral level, and a more vivid presentation generally, whatever the heck that means..... (words are so inadequate). The qualities of clarity, resolution and imaging are much the same, and you would have to describe these differences as musical.
There is no difference in FR; they spec almost identically. Distortion at +20dBU (13.1 watts into 8R) is -84dB H2, and -86dB H3, as follows at 1KHz into 8R//2nF:
Harmonic Frequency Fourier Normalized Phase Normalized
Number [Hz] Component Component [degree] Phase [deg]
1 1.000e+03 1.328e+01 1.000e+00 0.04° 0.00°
2 2.000e+03 8.705e-04 6.553e-05 -88.13° -88.17°
3 3.000e+03 6.572e-04 4.948e-05 -174.31° -174.35°
4 4.000e+03 2.292e-04 1.725e-05 94.00° 93.96°
5 5.000e+03 5.230e-04 3.937e-05 -174.13° -174.17°
6 6.000e+03 1.165e-04 8.774e-06 97.54° 97.50°
7 7.000e+03 9.602e-05 7.229e-06 -165.27° -165.31°
8 8.000e+03 7.260e-05 5.465e-06 102.11° 102.07°
9 9.000e+03 6.501e-05 4.894e-06 -5.15° -5.19°
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.009367%
These are simulated with good models in LTSpice, and they sound very close, you never hear anything vaguely resembling grainy sound or broken detail.
All Aspen amps, including the original AKSAs, are stable into electrostatic (cf. highly capacitive) loads, and very carefully compensated with silver mica caps.
Hope this helps, a bit more objective, based on specs!
Hugh
SPICE simulations
Good Day Professor,
I've started typing a brief explanation several times, only to add more and more information. Basically what Hugh posted is a SPICE simulation. This simulation is based on the fact that a square wave is an infinite series of sin waves. Each line in Hugh's post represents a different measurement and the subsequent results. The 6 separate columns headings are:
-Harmonic Number
-Frequency (Hz)
-Fourier Component
-Normalized Component
-Phase (deg)
-Normalized Phase (deg)
An explanation of how this simulation works, what it means, and how one gets to, for example, total harmonic distortion (THD) can be found in the below link. It explains it better than I can, brief or less brief. It's interesting reading. The deciphering of the column headings above will ease further "googling".
Introduction : MIXED-FREQUENCY AC SIGNALS
Google Books contains "SPICE for power electronics and electric power By M. H. Rashid", which is much more indepth.
I hope this helps.
Ron
Good Day Professor,
I've started typing a brief explanation several times, only to add more and more information. Basically what Hugh posted is a SPICE simulation. This simulation is based on the fact that a square wave is an infinite series of sin waves. Each line in Hugh's post represents a different measurement and the subsequent results. The 6 separate columns headings are:
-Harmonic Number
-Frequency (Hz)
-Fourier Component
-Normalized Component
-Phase (deg)
-Normalized Phase (deg)
An explanation of how this simulation works, what it means, and how one gets to, for example, total harmonic distortion (THD) can be found in the below link. It explains it better than I can, brief or less brief. It's interesting reading. The deciphering of the column headings above will ease further "googling".
Introduction : MIXED-FREQUENCY AC SIGNALS
Google Books contains "SPICE for power electronics and electric power By M. H. Rashid", which is much more indepth.
I hope this helps.
Ron
Latest.. Greatest... Soraya
Hi Lyn and Hugh!
Great information from you both, thank you! I have a difficult time explaining how something sounds, the words "presence" and "layers" describe my experience with LF100MK2 best I believe.
As for stability, I found late last year that I inadvertently connected a "non-impedance corrected" ESL panel to my amp. This panel approaches 1 ohm at high frequencies. It played happily for some time, at significant levels... that's not a guarantee kids... don't try this at home. It does prove a point though.
That said; both your listening experience as well as measurements give cause for deliberation. Maybe I should put myself in the market for the latest and greatest Soraya... I'll place the ball firmly in Hugh's court.
Groetjes,
Ron
Hi Lyn and Hugh!
Great information from you both, thank you! I have a difficult time explaining how something sounds, the words "presence" and "layers" describe my experience with LF100MK2 best I believe.
As for stability, I found late last year that I inadvertently connected a "non-impedance corrected" ESL panel to my amp. This panel approaches 1 ohm at high frequencies. It played happily for some time, at significant levels... that's not a guarantee kids... don't try this at home. It does prove a point though.
That said; both your listening experience as well as measurements give cause for deliberation. Maybe I should put myself in the market for the latest and greatest Soraya... I'll place the ball firmly in Hugh's court.
Groetjes,
Ron
Prof,
Phase is a complex issue in audio amps. We assume that the fundamental, 1KHz in the example given, is the reference, and has 0 degrees phase shift at the output. The normalised phase of the harmonics is the phase shift of that harmonic with respect to the fundamental.
This figure is important, since it changes the timbre of the distortions by augmenting or decreasing the harmonic addition with respect to the fundamental. However, I've never seen it discussed much in audio circles, and I can't give you detail on HOW it affects the sound. But then, the thd doesn't have much correlation with the sound either, so in many ways it is figures for the sake of figures, a failing of the human animal - the 'psychology of numerical appraisal', a phenomenon partly responsible for the mystique surrounding the V12 automobile engine and indeed anything where the numbers are used to convey the grandness of the design - the weight of the Airbus A380 for example. How can something so exquisitely quantified fail to impress?
Ron,
I see you tripping the keyboard fantastic again!! All at sea too, incredible this internet thang...... Hold five on the Soraya, I will contact you later today!
Cheers,
Hugh
Phase is a complex issue in audio amps. We assume that the fundamental, 1KHz in the example given, is the reference, and has 0 degrees phase shift at the output. The normalised phase of the harmonics is the phase shift of that harmonic with respect to the fundamental.
This figure is important, since it changes the timbre of the distortions by augmenting or decreasing the harmonic addition with respect to the fundamental. However, I've never seen it discussed much in audio circles, and I can't give you detail on HOW it affects the sound. But then, the thd doesn't have much correlation with the sound either, so in many ways it is figures for the sake of figures, a failing of the human animal - the 'psychology of numerical appraisal', a phenomenon partly responsible for the mystique surrounding the V12 automobile engine and indeed anything where the numbers are used to convey the grandness of the design - the weight of the Airbus A380 for example. How can something so exquisitely quantified fail to impress?
Ron,
I see you tripping the keyboard fantastic again!! All at sea too, incredible this internet thang...... Hold five on the Soraya, I will contact you later today!
Cheers,
Hugh
Last edited:
Ron, then you will really appreciate the '09' as this is what it does best so by all means talk to Hugh. The extra speed, slam etc or whatever other words one uses in attempting to describe the improvements could be instantly bypassed in a few minutes of actual listening, it just makes incredibly realistic music.
I'm going to quote from Radical Audio Synthesis This represents one opinion perhaps shared by some and not others as usual with audio.
As in most cases we cant achieve zero normalised phase at every harmonic, perhaps not even close. So it's a question of what the limits of this figure ought to be and on what basis?
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.