Hi Guys
I have a pair of nice Zingali Client Name EVO 1.2. They are 15 years old. It is a 2 way design, with a horn mid and treble, and a 12 inch woofer.
I wanted to upgrade / update the crossover caps and tweak up the sound a bit. I have some Mundorf Silver/Gold Oil Supreme's ordered, some Duelund silver bypass caps and some Mundorf resistors 5W.
I need a bit of advice on how the crossover is configured. See photo.
1. Which caps control the mid/high horn?
2. I wanted to look at adjusting the horn, upping the volume slightly v the bass. I think the 4 parallel 20R 5W resistors do that? Or is that controlling the bass driver / filter slope?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I would love to build the crossover from scratch, but don't have the specs or schematic.
I have a pair of nice Zingali Client Name EVO 1.2. They are 15 years old. It is a 2 way design, with a horn mid and treble, and a 12 inch woofer.
I wanted to upgrade / update the crossover caps and tweak up the sound a bit. I have some Mundorf Silver/Gold Oil Supreme's ordered, some Duelund silver bypass caps and some Mundorf resistors 5W.
I need a bit of advice on how the crossover is configured. See photo.
1. Which caps control the mid/high horn?
2. I wanted to look at adjusting the horn, upping the volume slightly v the bass. I think the 4 parallel 20R 5W resistors do that? Or is that controlling the bass driver / filter slope?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I would love to build the crossover from scratch, but don't have the specs or schematic.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It would be helpful to see the other side of the board, and the labels showing where the wires go.
Are you going to post a pic showing the backside of that network?
Once you do, I'll post one likely network layout.
🙂
Yes I will do that. Do you think it is possible to de-engineer this, so I can build a new one?
I don't hold much hope of getting a schematic or BOM from Zingali.
I can measure resistrors for values, in fact I know everything except the inductor value. No idea how to measure that.
If I disconnect some parts, I can then test the connections and work or the scheme. It is not so complex.
I don't think Mr Zingali did much tuning per speaker models, as I can see this PCB has been used on other models by them, ones that use different sized drivers, and the caps are the same brand, just adjusting the UF. And the resistors are different values.
What I do what to do besides replacing the caps, is retune the gain on the horn, it needs to be upped a bit as the bass driver is taking over a bit.
Thanks for your offer of help!
I don't hold much hope of getting a schematic or BOM from Zingali.
I can measure resistrors for values, in fact I know everything except the inductor value. No idea how to measure that.
If I disconnect some parts, I can then test the connections and work or the scheme. It is not so complex.
I don't think Mr Zingali did much tuning per speaker models, as I can see this PCB has been used on other models by them, ones that use different sized drivers, and the caps are the same brand, just adjusting the UF. And the resistors are different values.
What I do what to do besides replacing the caps, is retune the gain on the horn, it needs to be upped a bit as the bass driver is taking over a bit.
Thanks for your offer of help!
That inductor's value can be measured fairly easily ( after buying + using an inexpensive LCR meter with inductance measuring capability ) .
🙂
PS; check your local Amazon pages and read the reviews.
🙂
PS; check your local Amazon pages and read the reviews.
Last edited:
Indeed, if I can get some advice from audiocircle. You stalking me? I am getting worried now LOL.
How do you know about the drivers? Do you know Zingali?
How do you know about the drivers? Do you know Zingali?
It is the inductor that may be the biggest thing to replicate. If I can measure it, then I have all the values I need. Then copy the tracers, and just hard wire a new cross over. I will definately roll the caps. I am starting high with the Mundorf Silver / Gold Supreme EVOs in Oils, and bypassed with Duelund silver bypass.
Hopefully that will add transparency and speed.
Then I will tweak the gain on the horn, I need about 1-2dB extra I estimate. Some of the older Zingalis had a pot on the horn to adjust the gain. Having big 12 inch woofers can overload smaller rooms a bit so that may be the reason?
Impressive if the 12 inch woofer is indeed 95dB.
Hopefully that will add transparency and speed.
Then I will tweak the gain on the horn, I need about 1-2dB extra I estimate. Some of the older Zingalis had a pot on the horn to adjust the gain. Having big 12 inch woofers can overload smaller rooms a bit so that may be the reason?
Impressive if the 12 inch woofer is indeed 95dB.
Why replace the inductor? It might affect the resistance of the coil. Same with the capacitors. Be sure to measure their ESResistance and add resistors to ensure the listening test is equal.
Hi Guys
Here is my graphical representation of the crossover PCB layout. It is a 2 way 8 ohm, 95db efficient. 12 inch bass, 12 inch horn compression driver. crossover frequency is 1000hz. So the horn does pretty much all the range.
The horn is probably 104dB and the bass driver 95db. I think the 7 ohm resistor and the 10R 2 storey x 2 stack in parallel brings the gain on the horn down to match the 95dB level?
The old caps (18 years old) are probably Mundorf classic, or maybe ICEL as they are Italian and cheap.
I am replacing all those with top Mundorf Silver / Gold in Oil Evo supremes, bypassed with Duelund silver 0.01uF.
Resistors will be replaced with Mundorfs. I would like a bit more gain on the horn v the bass output, so was thinking of dropping the 10R stack to 8R stack, which would give 1 ohm difference I think? Maybe 1dB extra volume. Totally guessing here.
I have made a new board out of MDF and hardwired it with teflon insulated solid silver single core wire about 14 AWG.
I would like to replace the single Inductor but don't know the value yet as my meter doesn't read uF.
Any insight and thoughts on this would be great guys. I am shooting from the him, and have little crossover knowledge so...
It is a 12th octave 2 way crossover I believe.
So my crude drawing shows the banana inputs under the board, and the 2 pads at the bottom connect to the horn or bass drivers.
Here is my graphical representation of the crossover PCB layout. It is a 2 way 8 ohm, 95db efficient. 12 inch bass, 12 inch horn compression driver. crossover frequency is 1000hz. So the horn does pretty much all the range.
The horn is probably 104dB and the bass driver 95db. I think the 7 ohm resistor and the 10R 2 storey x 2 stack in parallel brings the gain on the horn down to match the 95dB level?
The old caps (18 years old) are probably Mundorf classic, or maybe ICEL as they are Italian and cheap.
I am replacing all those with top Mundorf Silver / Gold in Oil Evo supremes, bypassed with Duelund silver 0.01uF.
Resistors will be replaced with Mundorfs. I would like a bit more gain on the horn v the bass output, so was thinking of dropping the 10R stack to 8R stack, which would give 1 ohm difference I think? Maybe 1dB extra volume. Totally guessing here.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have made a new board out of MDF and hardwired it with teflon insulated solid silver single core wire about 14 AWG.
I would like to replace the single Inductor but don't know the value yet as my meter doesn't read uF.
Any insight and thoughts on this would be great guys. I am shooting from the him, and have little crossover knowledge so...
It is a 12th octave 2 way crossover I believe.
So my crude drawing shows the banana inputs under the board, and the 2 pads at the bottom connect to the horn or bass drivers.
Last edited:
Thanks !! for the pics Astrostar59.
After studying those pics I concur with your assessment of your networks circuit flow ( as seen below ).
Here's what your circuit looks like after it's been entered into XSim.
( Gray line is the original horn response as given by my Celestion/QSC Horn/Driver standin > which is pushing 110db so it's not a bad starting point )
( Black line is the increased horn response accomplished by choosing larger resistor values> it's @ 2db more )
( Purple line is the horn response from the original resistor values )
- The inductor value ( of L1 ) is simply an arbitrary choice ( that works well enough with the 22uF capacitor with a typical 12" woofers impedance curve ) .
One can see that the 95db sensitivity figure ( as stated by Zingali ) is a nice bit of fiction. 😛
🙂
PS; Thanks to Zilch ( RIP ) for providing the Celestion & Eminence driver frds & zma's ( used in the simms ).
After studying those pics I concur with your assessment of your networks circuit flow ( as seen below ).
Here's what your circuit looks like after it's been entered into XSim.
( Gray line is the original horn response as given by my Celestion/QSC Horn/Driver standin > which is pushing 110db so it's not a bad starting point )
( Black line is the increased horn response accomplished by choosing larger resistor values> it's @ 2db more )
( Purple line is the horn response from the original resistor values )
- The inductor value ( of L1 ) is simply an arbitrary choice ( that works well enough with the 22uF capacitor with a typical 12" woofers impedance curve ) .
One can see that the 95db sensitivity figure ( as stated by Zingali ) is a nice bit of fiction. 😛
🙂
PS; Thanks to Zilch ( RIP ) for providing the Celestion & Eminence driver frds & zma's ( used in the simms ).
Attachments
Wow, thanks for your work on my crossover EarlK, I am super impressed!
I finally fitted it back in the speaker tonight. Seems to play ok of a test amp. I will try properly tomorrow as wake the neighbours up.
You said "Black line is the increased horn response accomplished by choosing larger resistor values> it's @ 2db more"
Did you mean lower values R as wouldn't that increase the volume on the horn? Higher values would increase resistance so less volume?
If I wanted a bit more gain on the horn (more volume v the bass driver) which resistor would you change? I thought the single 7R resistor coming off the horn out minus tab. Maybe try a 6R. What do you think?
It may be ok as is, as I already replaced the 20Rs with 18R, the parallel stack which had 2 x 20R one side of the 1.25uF cap, 2 x 20R the other side of the 1.25uF cap. No idea why it does that? Is there a reason, maybe to tweak the FR curves?
Yes, I bet the Zingali is actually about 92dB, as I can't find a 95dB 12inch bass driver made by the Italian supplier. I will dig out the one I think it is and post a pic / specs.
I finally fitted it back in the speaker tonight. Seems to play ok of a test amp. I will try properly tomorrow as wake the neighbours up.
You said "Black line is the increased horn response accomplished by choosing larger resistor values> it's @ 2db more"
Did you mean lower values R as wouldn't that increase the volume on the horn? Higher values would increase resistance so less volume?
If I wanted a bit more gain on the horn (more volume v the bass driver) which resistor would you change? I thought the single 7R resistor coming off the horn out minus tab. Maybe try a 6R. What do you think?
It may be ok as is, as I already replaced the 20Rs with 18R, the parallel stack which had 2 x 20R one side of the 1.25uF cap, 2 x 20R the other side of the 1.25uF cap. No idea why it does that? Is there a reason, maybe to tweak the FR curves?
Yes, I bet the Zingali is actually about 92dB, as I can't find a 95dB 12inch bass driver made by the Italian supplier. I will dig out the one I think it is and post a pic / specs.
Last edited:
The green single 7R resistor on the HF circuit (left side) I will try lower values in that later, to tweak the gain on the horn v bass driver. I think I need 2dB extra.
An update on my DIY crossovers. I got the parts this week, so got down to it.
I de-engineered the original PCB and expanded it onto a sheet of MDF. Cut slots for the big caps and holes for the hard wiring.
I hard wired the circuit with 14AWG solid core silver with teflon sleeving. And the connections pushing up through for surface mounting the parts.
The wire is very stiff, so the parts don't move about.
I took of the original inductor used for the bass driver, and re-used that. Everything else was replaced. The big cap on the bass circuit is a 22uf so went from a managable poly cap, ICEL brand I think (8 euros) to a huge 60mm x 55mm Mundorf Silver Gold in Oil EVO Supreme cap, rated to 700v. They don't do a lower rating.
The caps on the horn are 1.65uF and 1.25 uF poly caps ICEF. I used Mundorfs Silver Gold in Oil EVO Supreme, but used 1.0uf with a 0.22uF as parallel on it to get 1.22uF, and a 1.5uF for the 2.65uF position. I also added a Duelund 0.01uf Silver bypass cap on the 1.22uf position, as I did that in my DAC kit some years ago and it opened up the treble a bit.
There is a resistor bank of 2 rows of 2 x 20R 5W resistors on the HF circuit which I changed down to 18Rs, so give me about 8.7R not 10R reduction on the horn. I want to get a bit more gain on the horn overall.
Nylon ties and silver solder. It isn't very pretty, but works well so far. I need to burn in the caps so expecting things to improve further in the next 2-3 weeks.
The green single 7R resistor on the HF circuit (left side) I will try lower values in that later, to tweak the gain on the horn v bass driver. I think I need 2dB extra.
An update on my DIY crossovers. I got the parts this week, so got down to it.
I de-engineered the original PCB and expanded it onto a sheet of MDF. Cut slots for the big caps and holes for the hard wiring.
I hard wired the circuit with 14AWG solid core silver with teflon sleeving. And the connections pushing up through for surface mounting the parts.
The wire is very stiff, so the parts don't move about.
I took of the original inductor used for the bass driver, and re-used that. Everything else was replaced. The big cap on the bass circuit is a 22uf so went from a managable poly cap, ICEL brand I think (8 euros) to a huge 60mm x 55mm Mundorf Silver Gold in Oil EVO Supreme cap, rated to 700v. They don't do a lower rating.
The caps on the horn are 1.65uF and 1.25 uF poly caps ICEF. I used Mundorfs Silver Gold in Oil EVO Supreme, but used 1.0uf with a 0.22uF as parallel on it to get 1.22uF, and a 1.5uF for the 2.65uF position. I also added a Duelund 0.01uf Silver bypass cap on the 1.22uf position, as I did that in my DAC kit some years ago and it opened up the treble a bit.
There is a resistor bank of 2 rows of 2 x 20R 5W resistors on the HF circuit which I changed down to 18Rs, so give me about 8.7R not 10R reduction on the horn. I want to get a bit more gain on the horn overall.
Nylon ties and silver solder. It isn't very pretty, but works well so far. I need to burn in the caps so expecting things to improve further in the next 2-3 weeks.
The green single 7R resistor on the HF circuit (left side) I will try lower values in that later, to tweak the gain on the horn v bass driver. I think I need 2dB extra.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I know, it is rough and ready. My second PCB is neater as I knew where to place everything. I put slots below the caps so they didn't move. MDF is quite good for a hard wire. Panzerwood is better or super dense plywood. It vibrates less than a typical resin PCB.
Already I can hear the mid treble has more details v the right speaker which is untouched yet. I want to do a 3 week test before I settle on the gain value for the horn. Plus I wanted to know I have upgraded soundwise over the cheapo poly caps. It seems to be better, so expect more as it breaks in.
My update is probably simpler than an older crossover that has electrolytics, as if you move to film the ESR drops right down. That may do strange things to the FR and slopes?
Already I can hear the mid treble has more details v the right speaker which is untouched yet. I want to do a 3 week test before I settle on the gain value for the horn. Plus I wanted to know I have upgraded soundwise over the cheapo poly caps. It seems to be better, so expect more as it breaks in.
My update is probably simpler than an older crossover that has electrolytics, as if you move to film the ESR drops right down. That may do strange things to the FR and slopes?
Your instincts are a bit backwards here, you need to increase the value of that 7R resistor to get more voltage to flow towards your compression driver.
That 7R resistor "pulls/sinks/shorts-out" the available HF voltage , pulling it down to ground ( essentially denying it from being used by the circuit > the compression driver ).
Try a value that's somewhere between 12 to 20 ohms ( instead of the original 7R ).
12R, will give you the "red" line ( a noticeable increase from the grey line ) as seen below.
🙂
PS; BTW, your instincts are correct regarding the double-stacked 20R resistors; making them smaller in value does allow more voltage to get to the HF driver.
Attachments
Last edited:
Hello EarlK
Many thanks for your advice, I greatly appreciate it. I popped in a 12R to replace the 7R as you suggested. And also dropped the 20Rs x 4 down to 10Rs x 4.
The sound now is about spot on. The horn has come up for sure, more treble and mids. I will leave it like this for 2 weeks, see how the caps burn in and change. If they open uo a LOT I may put 15R x 4 in instead.
It is really close to perfection right now though.
Thanks for your help!!
Many thanks for your advice, I greatly appreciate it. I popped in a 12R to replace the 7R as you suggested. And also dropped the 20Rs x 4 down to 10Rs x 4.
The sound now is about spot on. The horn has come up for sure, more treble and mids. I will leave it like this for 2 weeks, see how the caps burn in and change. If they open uo a LOT I may put 15R x 4 in instead.
It is really close to perfection right now though.
Thanks for your help!!
Hello EarlK
I was thinking. The larger resistor I fitted at the 7R position, to suck more current. Does that still do that, as my crossover is biwired and the circuit between high and low pass are separate?
Sorry, I am not trained in electronic circuit, and trying to understand the theory of it.
Also, there was 2 x 20R before the 1.25uf caps, and another 2 x 20R after it (both pairs as parallel), so give 10R resistance. Are they to reduce the gain on the horn? The 1.65uF cap is before that.
Last question, the curve and FR is controlled by the cap value? Or by the resistors? Or both in combination?
Many thanks for your help
Julian
I was thinking. The larger resistor I fitted at the 7R position, to suck more current. Does that still do that, as my crossover is biwired and the circuit between high and low pass are separate?
Sorry, I am not trained in electronic circuit, and trying to understand the theory of it.
Also, there was 2 x 20R before the 1.25uf caps, and another 2 x 20R after it (both pairs as parallel), so give 10R resistance. Are they to reduce the gain on the horn? The 1.65uF cap is before that.
Last question, the curve and FR is controlled by the cap value? Or by the resistors? Or both in combination?
Many thanks for your help
Julian