YNWOAN Record Clamps

YNWOAN

Member
2007-01-12 6:01 pm
I don’t visit this forum very often but a friend told me of this thread.

@ marklawrence, the material that the platter is made of does not matter (very few turntables have ferrous platters, in fact nothing in current production that I can think of).
 

NATDBERG

Member
2006-11-25 4:52 pm
It appears he's using magnets to clamp the record to the turntable.

My turntables have non-magnetic platters.

To the bearing housing.

And probably more accurate to say it's using magnets to provide downforce on the record.

"Clamping" in my mind means something more specific than mere application of a force. Whilst this is just adding force to make the record both bend slightly (providing stiffness) and be in stronger contact with the points on YNWOAN's mat. On a regular mat, only the latter would happen.

One could rely on a strong force on a Mk1 Thorens TD124 cast iron platter!

Although specific to the turntable and platter, you could say the result is the very similar to Pink Triangle's clamp design. It involved a slightly concave platter (acrylic platter) and a screwthread in the top of the spindle. PT's design involved coupling records to acrylic but with the concave design, would probably apply similar bending forces to YNWOAN's matt with it's raised points of contact.

Just to point out, for anyone going off to check out images of PT decks, over the years threaded spindles and platters have been mixed up by people.. and at some point the threaded bearing was standard but the concave platter an option... so you'll often see non-concave platters with the clamps.
 
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YNWOAN

Member
2007-01-12 6:01 pm
When you write ‘PT’ decks, do you mean Pink Triangle? If you do, then I’ve never seen any clamping mechanism produced by that company and I’ve never seen a clamp similar to mine made by any company.

Just to be clear, there definitely is a clamping force applied.

Also, the force applied is not the same as that from a clamp that screws to a threaded spindle. It’s a long time since I read the thread I wrote but I believe it is all explained/discussed within.
 

NATDBERG

Member
2006-11-25 4:52 pm
When you write ‘PT’ decks, do you mean Pink Triangle? If you do, then I’ve never seen any clamping mechanism produced by that company and I’ve never seen a clamp similar to mine made by any company.

Just to be clear, there definitely is a clamping force applied.

Also, the force applied is not the same as that from a clamp that screws to a threaded spindle. It’s a long time since I read the thread I wrote but I believe it is all explained/discussed within.

I read the thread...

It's not a clamp... the whole system of the bearing + platter + mat + your puck could indeed clamp something. The system as a whole could be called a form of clamp, yes. But what you've introduced does not clamp on its own.

Just use it with a non-magnetic bearing housing so the magnets aren't acting on anything... and you'll see that it's not a clamp. Just as a turntable "clamp" relying on mass to provide downward force would not work out in space... therefore it's not a clamp. Neither provides a clamping action by itself. It's just part of a system that has a resultant clamping force in certain circumstances.

So, yes, something that is not a clamp can apply a clamping *force* - that wasn't what I was disputing.

You could say that's pedantic... but it's simply more accurate and helps form a better idea of how something actually works and informs our instincts for design / understanding.


Pink Triangle's design, along with the threaded bearing, would be a clamp as the two parts clamp independently of anything external. (I did say Pink Triangle, yes - I only abreviated afterwards.)

The net force vector acting on the record is the same between the clamps. A downward force on the centre of the record.

In the PT design, the concave platter means there is an air gap under the record centre before the clamp/puck is introduced. A flat record is raised off the platter by the platter's edge.

With your mat, there is an air gap under the record centre with a flat record being raised off the mat by the six or so raised supports about 3" from the centre.

When the downward force is applied, the action is the same. It pushes the record down into the air gap underneath whilst its supported edge or middle stays where it is. There is a flex.

There could be a difference between them, depending on whether your puck design (in conjunction with the mat) places the record in contact with the mat at the centre point. (if it doesn't make contact, merely pushes it close, then I'd go back to the pedantic bit and *definately* say it isn't a clamp!) .

So hopefully you can see what I mean when giving the similarities in result between the designs. Just that yours is more universal and doesn't make contact with the spindle much, as you say, somewhat negating bearing noise being transmitted through the record surface.

It's never too easy to express things like this with words alone! Sorry if there's some confusion or I'm not really making sense to you. I'd say that words aren't my first language - pictures are. :D
 

YNWOAN

Member
2007-01-12 6:01 pm
You fundamentally misunderstand/misrepresent that which constitutes a ‘clamp’.

However, I believe this is largely a matter of semantics and the ‘bottom line’ is that I am happy that the mechanism behaves as I intended.
 
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NATDBERG

Member
2006-11-25 4:52 pm
You fundamentally misunderstand/misrepresent that which constitutes a ‘clamp’.

However, I believe this is largely a matter of semantics and the ‘bottom line’ is that I am happy that the mechanism behaves as I intended.

Ok....

If you believe it's largely a matter of semantics then no-one can be "fundamentally misunderstanding/misrepresenting" something. It will just be a matter of semantics.

I take it from your response that you believe I'm either stupid "fundamentally misunderstand" or being combative/devious "fundamentally misrepresenting".

Is this your normal way of talking, to get defensive or insult/start a fight?

Also, that you feel a need to state that you are happy that it does as you set out - when that wasn't in question - comes across that you are finding this discussion as a challenge to yourself somehow, a questioning of your design or something?

I'm not really sure how your ego got into this but if it's going that way, I think it's better left alone.. It doesn't do anything for this forum.

My first post here was simply to describe your puck idea to *someone else* and it's similarities to another that has gone before it - one that you say you've never heard of. It really wasn't directed at you.
 
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NATDBERG

Member
2006-11-25 4:52 pm
FFS, it looks like a clamp, applies downwards force like a clamp, weight, puck does what else are you going to a call it. "A monolithic device for the application of additional vertical loading in a turntable system whereas the actually effect of mass loading is simulated by magnetic attraction".

That's catchy....

haha. It doesn't look like a clamp, it looks like a circular weight.

The word clamp gives the feeling, instinct, way-of-thinking-about-the-problem that implies one needs to grab on to something or squeeze from two directions or pin something down...

That thinking then dictates or shapes the ideas one has.

If instead you see the problem for what it is - finding a way to apply downforce in a certain situation - then you see different sollutions.

Language has the power to keep people's brains in blinkers and so never find new sollutions! People who are innovative are people who (eventually) see a problem in a different way.. perhaps that can be sped up by changing your internal language.

You don't want a "clamp" you want a downward force that only acts within the boundaries of the upper bearing and the top of the record. Think of it that way and a good sollution comes fairly quickly.....


To instist on calling it a clamp out of convention ... why? To be accepted by peers who insist it's a clamp? Dont know where controversy could come from....

Here's to innovation! :drink:
 
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NATDBERG

Member
2006-11-25 4:52 pm
Another would be to clamp the *spindle* with a right-angled lever so that the corner of the apex pushes downward (on to the record, pushing down on a ring to spread the pressure) as the clamp closes.

You see that mechanism on "autopoles" .

But you'd need a large spindle and will have other problems.
 
Wiseoldtech
Based on your comment, is a vacuum hold down also snake oil ?

If you enjoy a loose warped record then your easily pleased obviously, but neither clamping
methods are snake oil sorry...

Regards
David


Yes, those vacuum contraptions built into turntables are also rediculous devices.
And no, I'm not easily pleased.... ask anyone that comes into my home, because they know I'm a well-rounded and sensible music lover, that knows how to confine the listening experience to simple purity, not some insane rapture dreamt up by marketing BS.



Overkill devices like that crap are designed to make people nuts.
Just like those nail-biting nervous nuts over on V-engine, worried horribly over a fraction of a degree if their precious micro-line stylus is not a full-on 90 degrees azimuth setting, or if that tiny fraction of a degree of VTF is going to chop off bits of vinyl, or destroy their intimacy of listening to their precious Diane Krall performance.
People like that are so wrapped up in obsessive performance statistics, among a plethora of other weird "holy grail" devices, that I seriously think a trip to a good psychiatrist is in order, or maybe some nice pills.



I don't know what your background is, nor does it matter to me, however I'm likely much older than you, been in the audio business since the early 1970's, sold and serviced tons of equipment, including video, and seen and heard it all already.


And I gotta laugh..... "loose warped record"?
That's funny. :D
 

anatech

Administrator
Paid Member
2004-06-06 8:31 pm
Georgetown, On
Hi wiseoldtech,
While you are correct in that many useless devices have been pushed onto the buying public with fancy stories attached, not all new devices are useless (or worse). Of course a record mat is going to have a bearing on how an album sounds, or even if it suffers from acoustic feedback or not. While I don't like the idea of clamping a record down to a slightly concave surface, it would achieve some benefits that my old Platter Matter used to give. The advantage a clamp would have is that with a Platter Matter, the record bonds slightly to the mat, so they have to be peeled apart. The mat is also excellent at removing dust from the grooves. That means the mat need to be cleaned often, a pain at best.

Try to keep an open mind on some things, particularly things that might be helpful even if you don't if agree that it is the best way.