Wiring question

Dear fellow DIYers,

I have a burning question,that is in a dire need for some kind of cooling answer.
My problem is,that some time ago, I was in middle of a high temperature debate about the consequenses of interconnecting components and speakers,without paying attention to the color coding of the connectors and wires.
Some were saying that by doing so, you are altering the integrity of the signal,others were insisting that no harm is done.There were blatant epithets thrown to each other like "smoking strange grasses",and "taking expired medicines". No end.

So,pleading on the sanity that is acquired by knowledge,and therefore calm and cool dialogue,let your opinions flow.


Best regards to you all

B.L.
 
As long as the speakers are in phase, it makes no difference. You can use the white stripe (or whatever) for positive or negative connection; it does not matter as long as you are consistent.

Now if you don't pay attention to the phase (polarity) of the speakers and hook them out of phase, it definately makes a difference. I never thought about how many wrong ways there are to hook up a speaker until this guy hooked his speakers up with one speaker connected to both positive outputs, and one hooked to both negative outputs. Now that'll make a big difference.
 

ChrisA

Member
2008-01-08 12:22 am
I see..

The question is " Does out of phase wiring alters the integrity of signal while recorded and replayed or not?"

B.L

The phase does not matter at all. But the phase of multiple signals must match.

For example if you flip the phase 180 degrees of one speaker in a multi-speaker cabinet you have problems but if the flip the phase of all of them there is no effect, as long as they are all the same. You can extend this s stereo pair of speaker cabinets both channels much match.

Same with interconnect cables, as long as they match.

Same applies to the guts of an amp even in a one channel system the signal (music) has multiple frequencies, you'd hope there is not much frequency dependent phase shift inside the amp. Although that is un-avoidable

A compact say to say this is: "The phase relations inside a system must remain consistent, but the absolute phase does not matter"

Simple answer, yes you can flip the color of the wires but if you do you have to flip EVERY one of them.
 
Simple answer, yes you can flip the color of the wires but if you do you have to flip EVERY one of them.[/QUOTE]

Hi,

could you please describe what effect is going to take place,if we don't do the flip? Something like using an inverting amp stage in a circuit,without taking effective measures, before or after and restore the invertion?
Or because of the non active nature of the wire, is irrelevant?
Therefore:

A.Is there a similarity between these two?
B.Do they alter the quality signal,or not?

I understand that absolute phase is irrelevant.Do you think that this is the exact point of misunderstanding.Stages connection phase misjudged as absolute phaseand vice versa


B.L
 

ChrisA

Member
2008-01-08 12:22 am
Do you think that this is the exact point of misunderstanding.Stages connection phase misjudged as absolute phaseand vice versa


B.L

I don't understand the question. But an amp either inverts or not, that is, it either has an odd or even number of inverting stages. I don't think it matters at all if the final result is inverted or not as long as all amps in a multi-channel system (stereo or 5.1) do exactly the same thing.

At this level a wire or and amp is the same. Wire is simply a unity gain amp and amps and wire anc invert or not depending on how it is connected, so again a system (system is the source and everything out to the speakers) can invert of not depending on if it has an odd or even number of inversions. (remember zero is a even number)

If this does not answer the question you are going to have to draw a diagram of two systems and ask if one is broken or if both are OK. In other works make the question very specific and not general.
 
I don't understand the question. But an amp either inverts or not, that is, it either has an odd or even number of inverting stages. I don't think it matters at all if the final result is inverted or not as long as all amps in a multi-channel system (stereo or 5.1) do exactly the same thing.

At this level a wire or and amp is the same. Wire is simply a unity gain amp and amps and wire anc invert or not depending on how it is connected, so again a system (system is the source and everything out to the speakers) can invert of not depending on if it has an odd or even number of inversions. (remember zero is a even number)

If this does not answer the question you are going to have to draw a diagram of two systems and ask if one is broken or if both are OK. In other works make the question very specific and not general.

Thank you for your time.

Sorry,if it seems complicated.It isn't. There is no need for schematics.
I just want to know-learn,

A.What are the consequences of such an inversion,on the signal,while being recorded?

B.Is it audible-measurable and how can we fix it,or not, in the reproduction chain?



Best regards


B.L.
 
OK, try this:

Although some golden eared people say they can hear absolute phase, most of us can't, so let's call that irrelvant.

Having your two speakers in phase is important to the sound. Electrically NOTHING will care and nothing bad will happen if you get it wrong. However the wound will suffer.

SO connect your speakers up with Red or + on the speaker to red or + on the amp. Now listen to the music. Got a good idea what it sounds like? Note that the overall sound SEEMS to be coming from the middle point between the speakers.

Now reverse the wires on JUST ONE speaker. Now listen to the same music. This won't hurt anything. You should notice the bottom end has cancelled out a lot, and also that the sound no longer seems to come from the center between the speakers. In fact your ears may have a hard time finding the direction of the sound. None of this is electrically harmful to anything. About the only risk is that with the sound cancellation, you can turn the thing up a lot louder than normal but it won't SOUND as loud. SO if your speakers are marginal you might overpower them.


In the signal chain, we are back to considering absolute phase, which we largely don't care about, and the occasions where we want to combine sounds. If I have two mics side by side recording the same sound, I probably want them in phase to avoid cancellation. But there are certain circumstances wherer I might want some cancellation for some reason. Or I put the mics at different distances from the sound source, and thus at different phase relationship. Or I might send the same signal to two different signal processors, one of whwich migh invert its output while the opther does not. In those cases, the signal is being combined eventually, and we want phases to agree. That is why most mixers beyond the basics have a phase reversal switch for each channel.
 
"Hehe, for a moment you got me thinking that this is a discussion on how the color of wires' the insulation has impact on the sound... "

Belden did such a study and found that it did indeed affect the CMRR of twisted pairs.
Hi,
was the "colour" the physical characteristic they were comparing or the "chemical composition" that was actually compared? Or maybe they compared the geometric differences between insulations produced by different machines and/or at different production settings/times.
 

djk

R.I.P
2001-02-04 4:23 am
USA
The different colors had minute differences that made them non-identical, even though the base materials and forcing die was the same.

The difference in CMRR was over a long length (can't remember exact distance).

The upshot was that they couldn't produce identical twisted pair guaranteed to have better than about 65dB CMRR.
 
OK, try this:

Although some golden eared people say they can hear absolute phase, most of us can't, so let's call that irrelvant.

Having your two speakers in phase is important to the sound. Electrically NOTHING will care and nothing bad will happen if you get it wrong. However the wound will suffer.

SO connect your speakers up with Red or + on the speaker to red or + on the amp. Now listen to the music. Got a good idea what it sounds like? Note that the overall sound SEEMS to be coming from the middle point between the speakers.

Now reverse the wires on JUST ONE speaker. Now listen to the same music. This won't hurt anything. You should notice the bottom end has cancelled out a lot, and also that the sound no longer seems to come from the center between the speakers. In fact your ears may have a hard time finding the direction of the sound. None of this is electrically harmful to anything. About the only risk is that with the sound cancellation, you can turn the thing up a lot louder than normal but it won't SOUND as loud. SO if your speakers are marginal you might overpower them.


In the signal chain, we are back to considering absolute phase, which we largely don't care about, and the occasions where we want to combine sounds. If I have two mics side by side recording the same sound, I probably want them in phase to avoid cancellation. But there are certain circumstances wherer I might want some cancellation for some reason. Or I put the mics at different distances from the sound source, and thus at different phase relationship. Or I might send the same signal to two different signal processors, one of whwich migh invert its output while the opther does not. In those cases, the signal is being combined eventually, and we want phases to agree. That is why most mixers beyond the basics have a phase reversal switch for each channel.

Very nice of you Enzo but, your post and all the others,so far,seem to eschew the first leg of the question 'what are the consequenses caused by out of phase wiring on the signal',if any?

Best regards


B.L
 

ChrisA

Member
2008-01-08 12:22 am
A.What are the consequences of such an inversion,on the signal,while being recorded?

B.Is it audible-measurable and how can we fix it,or not, in the reproduction chain?
[/QUOTE

A: Absolutely nothing. There is no preferred polarity. What we call inverted or not is totally arbitrary. but there is a convention just so we can make sure we are all the same.

Long ago someone said that a speaker's plus terminal when connected to the positive side of a small battery will make the speaker cone move forward. If the cone moves in then you have the phase inverted.

But that is simply a convention we follow like which side of the street we drive on.

B. Can't hear it, can't measure it except we can compare two signal and check if they are the same. How to fix it? swap the wires.