Been reading a lot but still a newbie so appreciate any help.
One of the critique is that a full ranger can't really do 20-20K hz range.
I see that there are plenty of full rangers that can do, say, 60hz to 20K, especially smaller units that are about 3 to 5 inches in diameter.
So why not do a full ranger that handles 80-20K and let the sub take 20-80hz? I'm assuming the use of a very high quality and sealed musical sub with very quick transients etc. Is integration still a problem?
The full range that can do 50-20K will sound even better 80-20K in that the bass is where the large excursions happen and having this taken out seem to be a benefit.
Thanks,
UL
One of the critique is that a full ranger can't really do 20-20K hz range.
I see that there are plenty of full rangers that can do, say, 60hz to 20K, especially smaller units that are about 3 to 5 inches in diameter.
So why not do a full ranger that handles 80-20K and let the sub take 20-80hz? I'm assuming the use of a very high quality and sealed musical sub with very quick transients etc. Is integration still a problem?
The full range that can do 50-20K will sound even better 80-20K in that the bass is where the large excursions happen and having this taken out seem to be a benefit.
Thanks,
UL
Very very few multi-ways make 20 hz, and i know of no 2-ways that do.
Helper woofers (a minimum of 2 is suggested) are highly recommended if you find you want more LF ommff. If you follow Geddes or Toole, and satelitte that can be XOed below 80 Hz is unnecessary. To get a good blend you would prefer them to be more extended than most subs.
dave
I would say that is probably the most common configuration for "full range" drivers. However when properly horn loaded there are a lot of full range drivers capable of 20hz-20khz, they just need to have very large cabinets.
To clarify by very large I mean like refrigerator size or larger, and then they still don't play crazy loud, so yeah the 80hz-20khz plus subwoofer is a great comprimise.
Cal,
LOL. Where have I been? Been trying to learn about full rangers...🙂 Asked as I've read a few posts in other forums where full rangers dislike on a separate sub - something about integration problems. Hence my question.
UL
LOL. Where have I been? Been trying to learn about full rangers...🙂 Asked as I've read a few posts in other forums where full rangers dislike on a separate sub - something about integration problems. Hence my question.
UL
There are definitly purists, often having never gone to the effort to get the right woofers and do the work necessary to integrate them.
dave
This leads to two follow-up questions...🙂 Sorry about that - you know what they say about good deeds...LOL. Really do appreciate everyone who responded and this great forum.
Query 1
Full rangers are often stated as being better for more intimate works such as vocals, chamber pieces, and jazz. And stated as not handling full orchestra well. If they lows are farmed out to a subwoofer unit, would the full ranger now do fine for full orchestra and other more demanding pieces? I know this is a general question and drivers do differ.
Question 2
If the full ranger need only to handle 80hz and up (or even 100 hz and up), would that then open up the possible options for enclosures where much smaller enclosures will still work just as well as we are no longer building for ultimately low frequency extension possible for a set of drivers? Or is 80 hz still considered to be quite low? I'm thinking of drivers between 3 and 5 inches. The smaller the cabinet, the easier the placement and possibly the better the imaging.
Thanks,
UL
Query 1
Full rangers are often stated as being better for more intimate works such as vocals, chamber pieces, and jazz. And stated as not handling full orchestra well. If they lows are farmed out to a subwoofer unit, would the full ranger now do fine for full orchestra and other more demanding pieces? I know this is a general question and drivers do differ.
Question 2
If the full ranger need only to handle 80hz and up (or even 100 hz and up), would that then open up the possible options for enclosures where much smaller enclosures will still work just as well as we are no longer building for ultimately low frequency extension possible for a set of drivers? Or is 80 hz still considered to be quite low? I'm thinking of drivers between 3 and 5 inches. The smaller the cabinet, the easier the placement and possibly the better the imaging.
Thanks,
UL
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My personal opinion is that the most important factor in matching a sub to any system is to have comparable dynamics. Horn loaded FR don't match well to a ported sub and vice versa. Driver materials, sensitivity and impedence can be crucial as well.
Question 2 is yes you can use a smaller enclosure if you need less bass extension but there are drawbacks as well. Planet10 know these things better so hopefully he can lend a hand. I would think you would want a larger FR driver as you can lower the cut off frequency for easier bass integration.
EDIT: Typing at the same time.
EDIT: Typing at the same time.
I would only use a sealed box if your full range is also in a sealed box or open baffel, otherwise it won't keep up dynamically. I'm not saying that it won't have the dynamic capabilities it just won't stay matched as the volume changes unless the sensitivity is similar. As long as your sub woofer is in the same general vicinity as the mains 80hz is fine but if it is say behind you then you may want to go a bit lower with the crossover. I know many people like many different cabinet configurations but now that I have heard what a well designed horn can do, nothing else is good enough for me. Tapped horn subwoofers, I feel, provide the best compromise between dynamics, size and clean response, but many others have other opinions so I will just state mine. Unless you're using an 8" or bigger horn loading is really the only good way to get below 80hz with most full range drivers, and I feel it is the best way with any drivers. Let me know if you need any help with cabinet design, otherwise Planet10 has many fine designs available as well.
As a relative newbee to FR myself, I’ll try to answer your two questions.
(IMO)
Q1- smaller FR’s have issues with complex music IF you try and play it too loud.
If you’ve just got them in background mode they’ll do most anything.
This is where a larger diameter FR really shines. It can deliver at higher volumes.
I have some FE207E’s (8”) in a BR slightly smaller than the 35L recommended Fostex design, and I believe they can play anything well at a reasonable volume level. Usually by the time my buddies and I notice issues with them we’re already yelling at each other. And those ported designs aren’t considered to be all that good.
Q2 – A link to something like you’re thinking about. A bit higher crossover but the idea is what I’m talking about.
great speakers for S.E.X.
No, it's not a porn link, it's a link to DIY speakers mentioned on the Bottlehead tube amplifier site.
R/
Jim
(IMO)
Q1- smaller FR’s have issues with complex music IF you try and play it too loud.
If you’ve just got them in background mode they’ll do most anything.
This is where a larger diameter FR really shines. It can deliver at higher volumes.
I have some FE207E’s (8”) in a BR slightly smaller than the 35L recommended Fostex design, and I believe they can play anything well at a reasonable volume level. Usually by the time my buddies and I notice issues with them we’re already yelling at each other. And those ported designs aren’t considered to be all that good.
Q2 – A link to something like you’re thinking about. A bit higher crossover but the idea is what I’m talking about.
great speakers for S.E.X.
No, it's not a porn link, it's a link to DIY speakers mentioned on the Bottlehead tube amplifier site.
R/
Jim
For the pros, wouldn't a sub also relieve the FRer from intermodulation distortion? Thus using a sub could be improving the sound. Not just the extention?
The problems aren't when you try to play them to loud it's when you try to excede X-max. A properly loaded 2" driver with an Xmax of 1-2mm can play fantastically down to 80hz even @ 120db+. I can't give you a link to an example but if you're ever in Duluth I can play them for you. The Fostex drivers have some of the best midrange I've ever heard but the 2"ers from Tang Band get pretty close and out shine them both in bass and treble.
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