The last weeks I have bought some new sets of power tubes. I found out that I paid for a new production 2A3 around the same price as a quad of EL34's. Both are new production from Russia (Sovtek).
So I asked myself (after receiving the packages and inspecting the contents): why is this 2A3 four times as expensive as this rugged 6CA7 (EL34)?
I myself am economist thus maybe should not ask this question. But am interested in your opinion on the matter.
Some of my thoughts:
From a supply- or productions perspective:
Is it the costs of material or labour that makes up for the difference? I think not. The tubes are roughly the same in size and materials. I could suspect that a triode has less of inside parts than a pentode but could be wrong. The argument from a cost perspective probably is the lack of mass production for triodes. They use the same kind of machinery but there is less mass production. EL34's (I think) are produced and sold in much greater quantities worldwide.
So, if this is true, if we all would need 2A3's instead of EL34's would the price go down to a mere 15 € a piece?
From a demand- or consumer perspective:
I think the truth lies here. 2A3's and power triodes are a niche market. These are for a demanding and luxury group of dedicated consumers. Maybe they even like to pay more, because higher price = better quality. EL34's are made for a much broader audience including musicians who are much more mundane or 'real-world-like' (or on a lower budget?).
Who are the guys (only guys, I can assure you that) that pay 500 € for a pair of used Telefunken ECC803s? How good that tube may be, it is a middle-of-the-road tube in the ECC83 noval newish cost-effective tradition (surely there are better NOS tubes available for much less money). But of course here goes the scarcity-argument: not much stock left and the prices will probably remain high(er).
So here my assertion is that 300B's in wooden boxes with specially signed manually written and numbered certificates that go along crazy prices is a matter of: what the nut wants to pay for it (nothing new of course, these are the laws of economics, you try to get the maximum price no matter what the costs of production are).
So I asked myself (after receiving the packages and inspecting the contents): why is this 2A3 four times as expensive as this rugged 6CA7 (EL34)?
I myself am economist thus maybe should not ask this question. But am interested in your opinion on the matter.
Some of my thoughts:
From a supply- or productions perspective:
Is it the costs of material or labour that makes up for the difference? I think not. The tubes are roughly the same in size and materials. I could suspect that a triode has less of inside parts than a pentode but could be wrong. The argument from a cost perspective probably is the lack of mass production for triodes. They use the same kind of machinery but there is less mass production. EL34's (I think) are produced and sold in much greater quantities worldwide.
So, if this is true, if we all would need 2A3's instead of EL34's would the price go down to a mere 15 € a piece?
From a demand- or consumer perspective:
I think the truth lies here. 2A3's and power triodes are a niche market. These are for a demanding and luxury group of dedicated consumers. Maybe they even like to pay more, because higher price = better quality. EL34's are made for a much broader audience including musicians who are much more mundane or 'real-world-like' (or on a lower budget?).
Who are the guys (only guys, I can assure you that) that pay 500 € for a pair of used Telefunken ECC803s? How good that tube may be, it is a middle-of-the-road tube in the ECC83 noval newish cost-effective tradition (surely there are better NOS tubes available for much less money). But of course here goes the scarcity-argument: not much stock left and the prices will probably remain high(er).
So here my assertion is that 300B's in wooden boxes with specially signed manually written and numbered certificates that go along crazy prices is a matter of: what the nut wants to pay for it (nothing new of course, these are the laws of economics, you try to get the maximum price no matter what the costs of production are).
About 12 years ago I had the opportunity to purchase about half a case of Philips/Mullard XF4's. I sat on them for a long while, but was finally motivated by my wife to clear out some of my storage. I sold almost all of them in matched pairs to guitar players over the past two year - all easy sales.
The crazy thing is that the ones that sold for the highest prices were often not the best of the lot... I will never understand the logic of this.
The 2a3's I use are the absolute cheapest Chinese ones possible. I got a whole bunch of them for free from a good friend. Once they are gone, there are many cheaper alternatives.
I find the absolutely cheapest Chinese 2a3's sound just fine. People who claim to hear better with rare tubes/valves like TK ECC803's are just fooling themselves. I'm happy to sell that stuff though if someone is willing to pay though.
The crazy thing is that the ones that sold for the highest prices were often not the best of the lot... I will never understand the logic of this.
The 2a3's I use are the absolute cheapest Chinese ones possible. I got a whole bunch of them for free from a good friend. Once they are gone, there are many cheaper alternatives.
I find the absolutely cheapest Chinese 2a3's sound just fine. People who claim to hear better with rare tubes/valves like TK ECC803's are just fooling themselves. I'm happy to sell that stuff though if someone is willing to pay though.
In a rational free market, people would pay as little as they could for the products and services they want. People are not rational, therefore you can boost sales of some items by increasing the price.
A perfect triode only cost $3: (really big bucks if you want the imperfections too!)
Its all about what you THINK you are getting:
Its all about what you THINK you are getting:
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I wonder why makers of high-volume tubes like EL34, KT88, won't make a production runwith less grids, leaving only G1 or G2
Tube prices reflect supply and demand. They are also an indicator of how much hand assembly is required to make the product.
In high end audio, the other player is the silly stories that accompany the more expensive products. It isn't worth it to automate the production of 45's, 2A3's and whatever else is out there. So low sales volumes do go a long way in determining price.
Raw materials, or the shortage of also crank up the prices, as will the amount of processing it takes so that the material is ready to be made into a tube.
-Chris
In high end audio, the other player is the silly stories that accompany the more expensive products. It isn't worth it to automate the production of 45's, 2A3's and whatever else is out there. So low sales volumes do go a long way in determining price.
Raw materials, or the shortage of also crank up the prices, as will the amount of processing it takes so that the material is ready to be made into a tube.
-Chris
On a manufacturing perspective, sometimes a less popular product will cost disproportionately more to produce simply because the production volume does not warrant the purchase/use of automated tools. This was true even on the tube golden era: some tube lineup production was tottaly automated and the end-user price was 1/10 of similar tubes built mostly by hand.
Chris
I hate to break this news to you.. but prices do NOT reflect supply and demand.
The reason something is more expensive is because the market is prepared to pay the price. Its not about value - its about price.
This is exactly why I used the EL34 example above. I sold those XF4's slowly over 2 years and commanded TOP dollar. The market happily paid it. I had lots of supply, and I know that lots of other sellers are out there with supply too. If the market expectation was $20 a tube then that would be the price. However the market has been differentiated. Lets take a closer look:
Want a cheap but good NEW EL34? - buy a China or Russian current production. price ~ $45 a quad. Deal of the century.
Want it to have a Mullard logo on your tube? Ok, pay more money and you get the mullard logo on it. No, its not a real Mullard (hahaha). price ~ $90 a quad.
Yes this is quite ridiculous but there is a market for this - apparently a Mullard logo doubles the price of an EL34 - sound is exactly the same though.
Want to pay LOTS more money? Buy some seller's claimed to be NOS EL34's off the bay. Price ~ $300-499.95
Do these sound better? I seriously doubt these will make you sound like Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton...
Want to REALLY pay a LOT more? Get real NOS from a "reputable" ?!?!? online seller. Price - beyond sanity.. check for yourself. I see a well-known site selling XF2's for $199 apiece.... which makes my eyes water.
Electrically these are all the same. Sonically too (unless maybe you ARE Mr. Clapton, but I bet he is using "Deal of the Century" stock at the very top of the list).
I hate to break this news to you.. but prices do NOT reflect supply and demand.
The reason something is more expensive is because the market is prepared to pay the price. Its not about value - its about price.
This is exactly why I used the EL34 example above. I sold those XF4's slowly over 2 years and commanded TOP dollar. The market happily paid it. I had lots of supply, and I know that lots of other sellers are out there with supply too. If the market expectation was $20 a tube then that would be the price. However the market has been differentiated. Lets take a closer look:
Want a cheap but good NEW EL34? - buy a China or Russian current production. price ~ $45 a quad. Deal of the century.
Want it to have a Mullard logo on your tube? Ok, pay more money and you get the mullard logo on it. No, its not a real Mullard (hahaha). price ~ $90 a quad.
Yes this is quite ridiculous but there is a market for this - apparently a Mullard logo doubles the price of an EL34 - sound is exactly the same though.
Want to pay LOTS more money? Buy some seller's claimed to be NOS EL34's off the bay. Price ~ $300-499.95
Do these sound better? I seriously doubt these will make you sound like Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton...
Want to REALLY pay a LOT more? Get real NOS from a "reputable" ?!?!? online seller. Price - beyond sanity.. check for yourself. I see a well-known site selling XF2's for $199 apiece.... which makes my eyes water.
Electrically these are all the same. Sonically too (unless maybe you ARE Mr. Clapton, but I bet he is using "Deal of the Century" stock at the very top of the list).
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YES !
And tie anode to screen to obtain a"better" 2A3 😀
Bonus: No need for rectified heather supply 😛
Yves.
Hi soulmerchant,
Since when did supply and demand stipulate value? Please read my posts a little more carefully.
Why are name brands more expensive? Perceived increased value. I didn't address this point, but that is what a brand name is all about. If you read more carefully, you will see that we are in agreement.
As for brand names, I trust both Sovtek and Electroharmonix for quality and durability. They have proved this over the course of many years, so I'll happily pay for them. They aren't that expensive anyhow.
Mystery eastern tubes have been behind several amp failures and noise. Sometimes the tube elements aren't even close to be lined up. So, while there may be some quality brands available, I still don't see the tighter parameter spread that I do with the New Sensor tubes.
We agree on the Russian built tubes, but not on the Chinese ones. I think they are capable of turning out top rate products, but the will isn't there, and it isn't the way they tend to do business. My name goes on everything I repair or build, I'm not going to risk ruining a good reputation over a few bucks when the quality is in question.
-Chris
Since when did supply and demand stipulate value? Please read my posts a little more carefully.
Why are name brands more expensive? Perceived increased value. I didn't address this point, but that is what a brand name is all about. If you read more carefully, you will see that we are in agreement.
As for brand names, I trust both Sovtek and Electroharmonix for quality and durability. They have proved this over the course of many years, so I'll happily pay for them. They aren't that expensive anyhow.
Mystery eastern tubes have been behind several amp failures and noise. Sometimes the tube elements aren't even close to be lined up. So, while there may be some quality brands available, I still don't see the tighter parameter spread that I do with the New Sensor tubes.
We agree on the Russian built tubes, but not on the Chinese ones. I think they are capable of turning out top rate products, but the will isn't there, and it isn't the way they tend to do business. My name goes on everything I repair or build, I'm not going to risk ruining a good reputation over a few bucks when the quality is in question.
-Chris
Yeah, but you have to be able to read data sheets, or even follow your voluminous plate curves of triode connected tetrodes and pentodes, and willing to use tubes that are not "audio" tubes. It's a small subset of hobbyists who will.
Additionally, there is the whole DHT vs. IDHT (even the thoriated tungsten subset) sect. On that note, I've wondered if the mechanical properties of a DHT might add a little vibrationally driven element to the sound, that is part of the appeal to some.
Sheldon
Sure. You just need to measure china tubes, but you need to do the same for the Russia ones too. The china EL34's are maybe not quite as good as the Russian EL34's (more weak ones in a lot) but they're 2a3's are fine.
It really depends much on the valve/tube in question.
I have a small bunch of china 12ax7's that are really superb. They look horrible though, with ugly fat red logo's on them. They're Ideal for sticking in a phono box though. 😉
Ian
Ten years ago Sovtek 2A3 was $50 for a matched pair. Now it's $50 EACH.
I don't believe the cost of making them has doubled, inflation would only account for the price rising to $60 a matched pair. So what changed? They realized the audio nuts would pay double for the same tube.
I don't believe the cost of making them has doubled, inflation would only account for the price rising to $60 a matched pair. So what changed? They realized the audio nuts would pay double for the same tube.
Prices of tubes reflect their market value. Period. Compare for example 45 and 4P1L, 808 and GU-50. 45 is cheaper in production, 4P1L is more expensive in production and better, but costs a fraction. The same with 808 and GU-50.
Some tubes were used in famous amps, some were used in military gear only. That's the cause.
Some tubes were used in famous amps, some were used in military gear only. That's the cause.
A 2A3 is a directly heated triode; the filament is oxide coated and simultaneously serves as the cathode. A EL34/6CA7 is a indirectly heated cathode type. The 2A3, 6B4, 211, 805, 810, 813, etc. are all directly heated tubes. Manufacturing consistency of the cathode in indirectly heated tubes can be held to better tolerance than the directly heated filament types. Oxide material can "flake" off the low temperature directly heated tubes easier than the separate heater cathode assembly. The higher powered tubes (originally used for radio transmitting) used thoriated tungsten filaments that operate at higher temperature. To some extent, you pay for manufacturing costs and cost per lot to manufacture. There is probably less demand for 2A3's, 300B's, 6B4's, etc. as compared to the 6L6GC and EL34, and that affects what you pay for a "short run" tube compared to thousands of tubes made...
Maintain the filament voltage within 5% of the rated voltage. Data sheets for the tubes give the filament/heater voltage tolerance. Excessive filament voltage will ruin a tube.
wrap-up so far
Let me try to sum up the arguments. I have made a visual in the attachment.
Firstly, I assume new production from the same kind of manufacturer with same level of quality (control). So arguments that Chinese tubes are of lesser quality than Russian (or vice versa) can not apply (because it is evident that greater objective/proven quality can command a higher price). I fully understand the argument that for a repair shop it is wise to pay some extra for tubes if that means more reliability and greater consumer satisfaction.
Also: that NOS tubes that are scarce demand much higher prices without always meaning higher (objective) quality is not part of the discussion. But yes, a smart producer can use this information to use some mark-up pricing upon his own new production. Just put on a nice logo, make some wild claim as 'made as a clone to the original Mullard etc' (but this applies I think as much to EL34 (Mullard look-alikes) as to 2A3 (RCA, monoplates etc).
New (for me) is that DHT (directly heated) means some extra work and control to get the same level of consistency. This could mean higher cost of production (higher rate of fall-out etc). If this claim can be corroborated by facts I don't know.
There seems to be consensus on a) lower volumes of production for 2A3 means higher cost of production, and b) (this argument dominates) you can ask whatever one is willing to pay for it (perceived value is all that matters, no matter where the perception is based upon). Fact is that Sovtek 2A3's are doubled in price over the last 5-10 years or so, in any case more than the Sovtek EL34 has (increased in price) in the same timespan.
Let me try to sum up the arguments. I have made a visual in the attachment.
Firstly, I assume new production from the same kind of manufacturer with same level of quality (control). So arguments that Chinese tubes are of lesser quality than Russian (or vice versa) can not apply (because it is evident that greater objective/proven quality can command a higher price). I fully understand the argument that for a repair shop it is wise to pay some extra for tubes if that means more reliability and greater consumer satisfaction.
Also: that NOS tubes that are scarce demand much higher prices without always meaning higher (objective) quality is not part of the discussion. But yes, a smart producer can use this information to use some mark-up pricing upon his own new production. Just put on a nice logo, make some wild claim as 'made as a clone to the original Mullard etc' (but this applies I think as much to EL34 (Mullard look-alikes) as to 2A3 (RCA, monoplates etc).
New (for me) is that DHT (directly heated) means some extra work and control to get the same level of consistency. This could mean higher cost of production (higher rate of fall-out etc). If this claim can be corroborated by facts I don't know.
There seems to be consensus on a) lower volumes of production for 2A3 means higher cost of production, and b) (this argument dominates) you can ask whatever one is willing to pay for it (perceived value is all that matters, no matter where the perception is based upon). Fact is that Sovtek 2A3's are doubled in price over the last 5-10 years or so, in any case more than the Sovtek EL34 has (increased in price) in the same timespan.
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I think this is the correct answer. It seems to me that people are underestimating how many musical instrument amplifiers use beam power/pentodes like 6L6GC and EL34 as the outputs. These are the de facto tubes for anything 25W+ in guitar amp land. I would be willing to bet that the tube guitar amp market totally dwarfs the audiophile tube amp market in overall volume (no pun intended).
I work in the musical instruments industry and attend the major trade shows. Marshall, Fender, Orange, Blackstar, Line 6 (DT series), Randall, Peavey, Engl, Hiwatt, Laney, etc are all using these tubes in pairs and quads. Tubes are still (generally) the first choice for professional and aspiring guitarists. The same cannot be said for audio reproduction.
This is one reason I'm a fan of "sleeper" tubes. The tube choice gives a fraction of the overall sound of a tube amplifier. Everything else is as much as important - output transformer (and interstage), power supply, circuitry, capacitors, chokes, power transformers, connectors, wiring, etc.
I cannot understand people who pay a lot of money for well known triodes such as 300B and 2A3 and use them to build amplifiers with cheap iron such as Hammond or Edcor. IMHO, this is a joke.
I agree that every tube has its sound signature and there are some brands better than others. Personally I'm a fan of Telefunken and Philips tubes. But instead of paying 400$ for a pair of E88CC Telefunkens, I prefer using another Telefunken tube and redesign the whole schematic in order to use it. Some prices are unfairly large.
On my personal SET, I have an EL802 driver for 2$ and a 6P45S from local flea markets for an equivalent of 0,50$. 😛But they're driving some signal iron for 600$ worth and are powered by another 700$ worth power supply.
Not all power triodes are expensive. Take a look at GM70 🙂. Also, consider some triode-strapped pentodes 🙂.
I cannot understand people who pay a lot of money for well known triodes such as 300B and 2A3 and use them to build amplifiers with cheap iron such as Hammond or Edcor. IMHO, this is a joke.
I agree that every tube has its sound signature and there are some brands better than others. Personally I'm a fan of Telefunken and Philips tubes. But instead of paying 400$ for a pair of E88CC Telefunkens, I prefer using another Telefunken tube and redesign the whole schematic in order to use it. Some prices are unfairly large.
On my personal SET, I have an EL802 driver for 2$ and a 6P45S from local flea markets for an equivalent of 0,50$. 😛But they're driving some signal iron for 600$ worth and are powered by another 700$ worth power supply.
Not all power triodes are expensive. Take a look at GM70 🙂. Also, consider some triode-strapped pentodes 🙂.
Triodes sound fantastic but I refuse to go all tube dealing with High voltages 700V and really expensive iron. As a SS designer, I used 2 BJT's and 6922 dual triode on the primary side to obtain the sweetest 30w amp I have heard. It sounds as if the musicians are in the room. amp has no global feedback
I used a 3k edcor and 150v B+. easy to find parts
6922 will drive a BJT to 1A with hfe of 50
I used a 3k edcor and 150v B+. easy to find parts
6922 will drive a BJT to 1A with hfe of 50
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