Hi, i´m searching for a top 4-way digital crossover for my 4-way active system. What´s the top end on the market, or the best cost-benefit ratio? I set great value upon a possibly zero-noise signal to the analogue Outputs, because I have compression drivers with high efficiency. Are there x-overs with a volume control too, to save an extra dac with volume Control?
Best regards.
Peter
Best regards.
Peter
Most digital crossovers use the same DSP chips, something like Blackfin, Sharc, or SigmaDSP from AD. They seem to mostly have the same design philosophy that distortion below -120dBFS should be inaudible. However, the assumption may or may not be correct.
The best ASRC chips such as SRC4392 or AK4137 are specified for distortion down in the -130dBFS to -150dBFS range and they don't sound the same as each other or equally low distortion when compared to each other. (Both also have some sensitivity to power supply quality for the ASRC PLL circuitry.)
If you are very picky about sound quality you might want to do your DSP with 64-bit precision in a PC or FPGA. Finding a way to do it in a PC would probably much easier. Might make it easier to have the DSP come in the signal chain before syncing with DAC clocks could be an issue too.
May I ask what your are planning to use in the way of DAC(s)?
What kind of sound quality are you looking for?
Budget?
The best ASRC chips such as SRC4392 or AK4137 are specified for distortion down in the -130dBFS to -150dBFS range and they don't sound the same as each other or equally low distortion when compared to each other. (Both also have some sensitivity to power supply quality for the ASRC PLL circuitry.)
If you are very picky about sound quality you might want to do your DSP with 64-bit precision in a PC or FPGA. Finding a way to do it in a PC would probably much easier. Might make it easier to have the DSP come in the signal chain before syncing with DAC clocks could be an issue too.
May I ask what your are planning to use in the way of DAC(s)?
What kind of sound quality are you looking for?
Budget?
My actually DAC is the RME ADI 2 - looking for the Benchmark DAC 3.
Possibly best soundqulity, bought years ago the DCX2496, but modifyed them not, the noise level on the analogue outputs is not accetpable, with sitting 3 meters infront of a 120db driver
Budget depents on, if i get a good way solution or have to buy two 3 way x-over´s - I think 1500€ is my limit.
Possibly best soundqulity, bought years ago the DCX2496, but modifyed them not, the noise level on the analogue outputs is not accetpable, with sitting 3 meters infront of a 120db driver
Budget depents on, if i get a good way solution or have to buy two 3 way x-over´s - I think 1500€ is my limit.
So, a stereo 2-way system means you need 4 DAC channels, is that right?
As it happens I have both an RME ADI-2 and a DAC-3 🙂
Don't care for the DAC in the ADI-2. DAC-3 is pretty good for casual listening, but there is something about it that makes not that enjoyable to listen to for very long. Likely the ESS chip, they have a sound not everyone likes. Guess I'm coming around too, now favoring AK4499 (which has 4-channels).
Thing about digital volume controls is that most lose digital resolution as volume is turned down. ESS chips have a dithered volume control that retains resolution but has a constant noise floor. Those are the two basic choices for digital volume controls, dithered being the better one. Best are analog volume controls after the DAC, but those have their issues too. Best of analog volume controls use switched resistor attenuators with the switching done using a mechanical switch or else relays.
As it happens I have both an RME ADI-2 and a DAC-3 🙂
Don't care for the DAC in the ADI-2. DAC-3 is pretty good for casual listening, but there is something about it that makes not that enjoyable to listen to for very long. Likely the ESS chip, they have a sound not everyone likes. Guess I'm coming around too, now favoring AK4499 (which has 4-channels).
Thing about digital volume controls is that most lose digital resolution as volume is turned down. ESS chips have a dithered volume control that retains resolution but has a constant noise floor. Those are the two basic choices for digital volume controls, dithered being the better one. Best are analog volume controls after the DAC, but those have their issues too. Best of analog volume controls use switched resistor attenuators with the switching done using a mechanical switch or else relays.
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Mekkachie, be careful what you read, he shills for audio business. The sound quality claims he posts have no proof. They are based on none scientific comparisons.
If your amps have input level control, you can use "gain structure" to lower the noise floor level to inaudible range. That's what I do with my high efficiency compression driver speakers. Any functioning digital crossover will do the job for what you are looking to do without spending much. Don't fall for they hype posted by those who shill for audio business.
For improving sound quality, spend the extra money on improving the room acoustics, not the current crop of digital audio because it's already a matured technology.
If your amps have input level control, you can use "gain structure" to lower the noise floor level to inaudible range. That's what I do with my high efficiency compression driver speakers. Any functioning digital crossover will do the job for what you are looking to do without spending much. Don't fall for they hype posted by those who shill for audio business.
For improving sound quality, spend the extra money on improving the room acoustics, not the current crop of digital audio because it's already a matured technology.
Linea Research ASC-48 amazing quality and the ability to do low delay linea phase crossovers. Used by quite a few of the top end pro sound companies.
I dont own one but after using and hearing one at work I really want one!
Alex
I dont own one but after using and hearing one at work I really want one!
Alex
Digital crossover like Behringer DCX2496 does ADC-process-DAC. I've used it before until it broke down (bad quality control). If you don't like the concept of ADC-DAC, then you can try analogue active crossover like Rane, Ashly or Marchand Electronics (DIY option) coupled with analogue EQ. Those have level gain options so that you can use "gain structure" for compatibility with your high efficiency speakers. My compression driver speakers have over 100 db efficiency and no audible hiss or buzz/hum from 1' away.With the DCX2496, I put the inputgain to minimum and the noise was to loud.
If I short my mosfet amps, there is absolutely no noise. So it´s definitely the DCX which has th noise, so i need a speakermanagment which works possibly noiseless.
I should probably mention that Evenharmonics is on my ignore list for good reasons: (1) he is convinced that evil people are secretly selling audio equipment, and (2) that people can't hear **** (since he can't, nobody can). Most of the people around here are very familiar with his antics.
Two extremes to consider. One is the ultimate equaliser, which is pc based and can do pretty much whatever you want. The other is one of the miniDSP digital in and out boards such as the nanodigi, and your choice of spdif in DAC.
With very high efficiency speakers as you know, getting the gain balance right can be a challenge.
With very high efficiency speakers as you know, getting the gain balance right can be a challenge.
Reread the thread title, guess I wan't expecting 4-way speakers. Means you would need an 8-channel dac, one channel per speaker. Is the 1500€ budget intended for DSP alone, or DSP plus 8-DAC channels? Separate DAC budget?
You didn't have in mind something like a DAC-3 followed by a digital crossover unit with 2 analog inputs and 8 analog outputs?
You didn't have in mind something like a DAC-3 followed by a digital crossover unit with 2 analog inputs and 8 analog outputs?
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This little project of mine may be of interest.
DSP Crossover project
You could replace the Khadas dacs with the Soncoz ones listed, on the bench these beat both dac 3 and rme.
DSP Crossover project
You could replace the Khadas dacs with the Soncoz ones listed, on the bench these beat both dac 3 and rme.
Hello what an interesting thread i would like to join. I am also looking for this Digital X-Over but for 3-way only and have the same thoughts as the thread starter.
In my view there is the dbx driverack PA2 which is not a lot more expensive then the Behringer DCX2496 (200 Euro versus 386 Euro) Edit 180 Euro is a lot indeed, but in comparison to 1K+ its a litle step.
The dbx driverack PA2 has a lot of features also auto adjust and nice IOS control. But i am worrying about the digital process. I am using a Mytek DAC and i know about that there are differences even with different PSU to drive the DAC.
So i am a little curios wether thi 380 Euro maschine can make a decent job - at least besides the DACs it needs the whole DSP things LCD Display connectors multiple OP amps, balancing things and there is not much left for a decent sounding DAC Chip(s)
So if there is somebody out there who can give a little bit of navigation of own experience this would be nice.
I would like to know what state of the art and whats a good compromise level. I would tend to take a device thats nearby 90% of sound quality of the top ones but a lot cheaper.
Besides this is there somebody who did this PC based ? But in this case you also need a decent hardware to output the 6 or 8 channels. If somebody has some experiences to share i would appreciate.
In my view there is the dbx driverack PA2 which is not a lot more expensive then the Behringer DCX2496 (200 Euro versus 386 Euro) Edit 180 Euro is a lot indeed, but in comparison to 1K+ its a litle step.
The dbx driverack PA2 has a lot of features also auto adjust and nice IOS control. But i am worrying about the digital process. I am using a Mytek DAC and i know about that there are differences even with different PSU to drive the DAC.
So i am a little curios wether thi 380 Euro maschine can make a decent job - at least besides the DACs it needs the whole DSP things LCD Display connectors multiple OP amps, balancing things and there is not much left for a decent sounding DAC Chip(s)
So if there is somebody out there who can give a little bit of navigation of own experience this would be nice.
I would like to know what state of the art and whats a good compromise level. I would tend to take a device thats nearby 90% of sound quality of the top ones but a lot cheaper.
Besides this is there somebody who did this PC based ? But in this case you also need a decent hardware to output the 6 or 8 channels. If somebody has some experiences to share i would appreciate.
geemo4,
It isn't the dac chip that makes for a good dac, its all the circuitry around the dac chip that makes up the particular implementation that matters most. Doing all that stuff as well as a really good designer knows how usually makes for dacs costing a few thousand dollars for only 2-channels. Most dacs are compromises built to a price point.
All-in-one DSD boxes with 2-channels in and 4-8 channels out typically have ADC/DSP/DAC processing running at a fixed sample rate, maybe 48kHz or 96kHz. To do it as well as a designer knew how might cost you $10,000 and still might not be a good idea unless maybe used only for phono.
For digital sources it makes no sense to convert to analog then go into a DSP box that converts right back to digital before doing DSP and then back through a DAC once more. Better to stay in digital format until all DSP is done then go though a DAC only one time, it will sound far, far better.
It isn't the dac chip that makes for a good dac, its all the circuitry around the dac chip that makes up the particular implementation that matters most. Doing all that stuff as well as a really good designer knows how usually makes for dacs costing a few thousand dollars for only 2-channels. Most dacs are compromises built to a price point.
All-in-one DSD boxes with 2-channels in and 4-8 channels out typically have ADC/DSP/DAC processing running at a fixed sample rate, maybe 48kHz or 96kHz. To do it as well as a designer knew how might cost you $10,000 and still might not be a good idea unless maybe used only for phono.
For digital sources it makes no sense to convert to analog then go into a DSP box that converts right back to digital before doing DSP and then back through a DAC once more. Better to stay in digital format until all DSP is done then go though a DAC only one time, it will sound far, far better.
Once again, claim without supporting evidence. 🙄it will sound far, far better.
Mekkachie, just like I told you.
"Better to stay in digital format until all DSP is done then go though a DAC only one time"
Since when does something that is intuitively obvious need "supporting evidence"?
I suppose one could string 20 miniDSPs in a big, long analog serial connection and still need supporting evidence that this would sound worse than a signal through just one!
Since when does something that is intuitively obvious need "supporting evidence"?
I suppose one could string 20 miniDSPs in a big, long analog serial connection and still need supporting evidence that this would sound worse than a signal through just one!
Why didn't you quote what I quoted ("it will sound far, far better.")? 🙄Since when does something that is intuitively obvious need "supporting evidence"?
I should probably mention that Evenharmonics is on my ignore list for good reasons: (1) he is convinced that evil people are secretly selling audio equipment, and (2) that people can't hear **** (since he can't, nobody can). Most of the people around here are very familiar with his antics.
Thanks for the heads-up, he did surprise me with what he wrote, so much so I had to read and reread.
If you have really read what I wrote, you would realize what Markw4 claimed are false. You notice he couldn't quote any of my posts supporting his claims. He's been reading my posts even after announcing that I'm on his ignore list which you would have seen if you really have read my posts.Thanks for the heads-up, he did surprise me with what he wrote,
I should probably mention that Evenharmonics is on my ignore list for good reasons: (1) he is convinced that evil people are secretly selling audio equipment, and (2) that people can't hear **** (since he can't, nobody can). Most of the people around here are very familiar with his antics.
🙂😎
Mark is very knowledgeable and has critical listening skills. I trust his judgement.
THx-RNMarsh
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