Was: sinx/x. Now: standardisation (CE & TÜV ) / protectionism

This discussion developed in the "how to design sinx/x filter for TDA1541A?" thread in the digital board and i copied the thread and erased posts not appearing relevant to the new topic.
### dice45 ###


Jocko Homo said:
When it causes the cheap op-amp they are using to generate IMD products that fall into the audio band.

Jocko
IMD= Intermodulation Distortion. The occurrence of sum and difference frequencies when two frequencies are amplified in the same amplifier.:)
Though the frequencies are above the audible audioband the IM products can be in the audible region.;)
 
Re: Re: How?

Elso Kwak said:
Though the frequencies are above the audible audioband the IM products can be in the audible region.;)

It's a good rule to reduce HF noise even if your amps don't make it audible. Our surroundings don't like HF noise. Here in Europe it's much stronger regulations for that. For instance, american cordless phones are strictly forbibben here in Sweden. They radiate way too much. Always thrive for a clean audio signal.
 
Radiation

A cell phone has to radiate an RF signal to work. It is a radio frequency transmitter/ receiver. Banning American products in Europe is not a technical issue but a trade protectionist issue. You buddies at Ericsson are just trying to protect thier market share. Probably a good idea since they are losing their shirts in the US Telecom market. :crackup:

Art
 
Radiation...........

Yes, indeed, you hear the most outrageous lies about it. Half-baked goggle box do-gooders telling everybody it is bad for you.

Pernicious nonsense! Everyone can stand to have a hundred X-rays a year. And they ought to have them, too.

Thanks to ****** companies like Ericsson, Alcatel, and Marconi, by the time the US telecom industry is set right, I'll be old enough to collect Socialist Insecurity. EC certification amounts to nothing more than a way to screw the country that bailed your butts out of the fire on more than one occasion. And how do they repay us? By leveraged buyouts of our copmpanies, and keeping the rest from selling anything over there.

Right, Arty?

End of rant.

Jocko "Sin Bin Bound" Homo

P. S. See ya' there Ren.........
 
I eat neither. Harry is the carnivore. I eat non-GM salad.

Sorry I forgot to put [joke] around everything.

But while I'm at it......has anyone else (excluding Harry.......I've heard his horror stories.....) gone through the frustrating experience of getting a CE sticker for some electronics gear? Seems as though they make up arbitrary rules every time you resubmit it.

Back to the subject at hand.....which was??

Jocko
 
yes, but it showed up we could not get that sticker, because we only deliver equipment for bugger machines. So the complete system needed to be checked before you could mount the CE sticker on it.

But then our products needed to be tested to ensure that this would not be where the machines failes!

I do not think the EMC rules are that a big problem. Mostly we call 'Jydsk EMC' to find out which part of the regulations our parts have to comply with. They deliver a good service.

What i think is a problem, is the company's who have certified test labority charge 120USD/man hour. This can get costly!!

Sonny

PS : Try to get CE-sticker on a spot-welder .. they normaly uses a 100KVA weld transformer.
 
Wow Jocko, that's a deep hole you're digging for yourself there... ;) I wonder if the internationals outnumber the Americans on this forum?

Maybe I respect your engineering opinions, but your political ones... ??? :rolleyes: I hope you aren't really naive enough to believe that the US doesn't use the very same tactics... actually worse in many cases for leveraging their disproportionate economic and political influence to strong-arm other countries. Well, enough anyway, I won't discuss it further.

So, back to the topic... sinx/x to me automatically means a filter in the digital domain - So doesn't the use of sinx/x filtering imply oversampling? Or am I missing something here... are we really trying to talk about brickwall filters in the analog world which therefore have a causal impulse response?
 
HiFi:

No, just substituting one form of absurdity (non-o/s) with another. Like I said......should have put [joke] in there.

Thought the J. Frank Parnell rant was a clue not to take it seriously. About as serious as all this non-o/s stuff.

So once again......if you guys wants to hear want happens when you try to do digital without a brickwall filter, then go by a used Wadia.

Jocko
 

Ren Hoek

Banned
2002-04-18 10:18 pm
Blame Canada!

Hey, joke-o man, you forgot one in your rant.
What about the grand-daddy of all US telecom frauds? Your buddy, Bernie the Borg from WorldCon?

(This should really get him mad.):devilr: :hot: :redhot: :bullseye: :firefite:
 

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Jocko,

i just knew standardisation talk would get you started.

re: protectionism.
i tend to agree with hifiZen, to believe US government and also US companies would not use the same tactics is a bit naive IMO... :)
As the cold war is over and USA is no longer the needed and mighty ally but the only remaining superpower, Europeans look more critical at US actions and you hear the opinion quite often that USA and US companies bully their interests thru ruthlessly despite of the persistent claim doing the ethically right thing. US protecionism is frowned at over here.

re: CE sticker.
Can be you are right to some degree and protectionism as a small part of the game as far as it comes to US companies. OTOH, as Art says, cell phones need RF to work. But the same job can be done either neat or ugly and without caring to avoid nasty byproducts RF-wise and this also is part of the CE-sticker game. Besides that, {pun mode on}, USA is only outperformed by Taiwan and Korea concenring environmental lack of care.{pun mode off} I am grossly exaggerating here except that i know some details about Taiwan making me sure i do not want to live there for envirmonetal reasons. No offense meant, ok?

European countries and particularly Germany and the Scandinavian states are super-touchy as far as environmental care is concerned. Probably too much, almost self-paralyzing, whereas USA definitely is not touchy enough. I have the Kyoto Protocol in mind.

Just another complette different aspect of the CE sticker: this crap was invented by members of the Europena comittee for standardization and i guess we both agree on the point that such committees tend to justfiy their own existence by inventing standards not always needed but always calling for certification and sometimes calling for considerable technical effort and huge costs to meet the new standards (poor manufacturers).
Sometimes those standards are 100% BS. I know of a CE demand for absolute insenstitivity of audio amplifiers for radio transmission signals and this has to be tested with insane RF signal levels in insane proximity of the transmitter.
Manufacturers patch 10nF across any input to meet the standard and get the CE sticker. How the amp's sonics survive that is ignored.

The Selbstzweck character of many those CE standards is unignorable (Selbstzweck: German intranslable for: end-in-itself, justifying the own existence, self-purpose). It costs European companies a lot of money and i doubt they have a commercial advance to the US comanies in that. Just Europeans know it from the start, they incorporate it into their designs whereas US companies do not care about meeting those standards and , wanting to enter the European market, find themselves confronted with standards as weird as the American ones, just a completely different kind of insanity, and now have to patch their designs to eventually meet the standard.
 
RE: sinx/x filter:

http://pub4.ezboard.com/ffakeidsfrm1

P.S. The computer ate my response on US protectionism which is good since it would have put me in the Sin Bin. The bottom line is don't forget who rebuilt much of Germany and Japan's infrastructure about 50 years ago after their efforts to make the world a much better place. I guess you never heard of trade deficits or looked around to see what kind of cars many Americans are driving. American Protectionism my ***! I guess we did protect you from getting to speak Russian though, when my USAF pilot father was stationed in Germany in the mid 50's

H.H.
 
dice45, you are incredible wellspoken in the CE business (agree with you). Why don't we start a new thread in "everything else" and there explain to me why you germans can't except CE? We have to get products TÜV approved otherwise you won't buy it. TÜV is of some perculiar reason more "serious" than CE. No offence, just wondering becauce it's a problem for us.
 
WOW!

Herr Per finally posted something I can agree with him on. [joke]

(Look what happened last time I didn't do that......)

I was hoping Herr Bernhard would have taken the bait and moved the thread, but he didn't.

So......if he doesn't......

Anyway, I want to read what the King of Feedback is fixing to dredge up. Without being interupted by troublemakers like Ren, Arty, Harry.....and of course............

Jocko
 
Re: Radiation

artnyos said:
A cell phone has to radiate an RF signal to work. It is a radio frequency transmitter/ receiver. Banning American products in Europe is not a technical issue but a trade protectionist issue. You buddies at Ericsson are just trying to protect thier market share. Probably a good idea since they are losing their shirts in the US Telecom market. :crackup:

Art

I believe peranders was talking about cordless phones, not cell phones.

Phil
 
dice45 said:

re: CE sticker.
...
Just another complette different aspect of the CE sticker: this crap was invented by members of the Europena comittee for standardization and i guess we both agree on the point that such committees tend to justfiy their own existence by inventing standards not always needed but always calling for certification and sometimes calling for considerable technical effort and huge costs to meet the new standards (poor manufacturers).

There is one real benefit to CE. At least now you only have one set of inane requirements to meet. Used to be each country in Europe had it's own requirements. Now once you get CE approval you can sell in all of Europe (Germany still likes TUV, but at least they can't block you legally). We were never really able to sell in France until CE became law (darn French were too good at coming up with new reasons why only a homegrown product was legally sellable).

Plus, I find the CE documentation is particularly effective at treating insomnia. My own cross to bear is EN45501 and several times I have woken up face down on my desk in a puddle of drool after a lengthy perusal.

Phil
 
Before I continue my rant...

Dice and Haldor make good points.....especially the part that comittees seem to exist just to justify their existence.

Used to work with a guy from Austria (almost as pendantic as me....) who used to refer to CCITT as "bunch of people who got together for a very expensive lunch one day, and they will leave droppings long after we have gone. So that is why we should adopt their standard."

Anyway....back to ranting......

Within the last few years, Alcatel has taken over what used to be Collins Radio, and Digital Switch.

They have closed Collins down, and are in the process of attempting to sell the campus. Which is very sad, as I'm sure the punters that buy it will have no idea as they raze it to the ground that they will destryoing a valuable piece of cult history.

A scene in the cult movie classic "Mars Needs Women" was filmed there. It would be a shame if that strange looking building at the SE corner of the campus is bulldozed into rubble.

"Its' intermittance is perfect. The message is.....Mars......needs.....women......"

In the case of Digital Switch, they are slowing trying to do the same thing. Eventually, it too will cease to exist, and all the manufacturing will be done offshore.

Don't believe me? Ask Harry or Pete G.

hifiZen is correct. We have more than enough incompetent boobs running our companies without help from the EU. We have a surplus, if you consider that Canadian hose-bag, the P. T. Barnum of Telecom, the crook responsible for the biggest fraud in history.... (along with putting me on the street, losing my health insurance, and making my 401-K worthless).........that's right.....

Bernie "The Borg" Ebbers.

But he is not a crook. His opinion, not mine.

Next rant: ISO9000. Stay tuned.

Jocko
 

rfbrw

Member
2001-10-26 11:51 pm
.
If you must blame someone for CE you ought to blame the Belgians as CENELEC was were the plot was hatched. And on the subject of closing factories, you might want to consider the large American electronic concern that cut and run from Scotland as soon as the goverment grants ran out.

ray