What else are kitchens for! 😀
I can only dream of building a horn enclosure.
My rasping remains relegated to the rectangular realm!
I can only dream of building a horn enclosure.
My rasping remains relegated to the rectangular realm!
The first step in any crossover is the cabinets, and these look as though they'll go together. They look good too.
So far, the cabinets behave pretty much as expected: prominent mid-/upper bass and a bit shy below 100hz or so. The extra midbass energy allows the basslines to cut through the mix which is interesting for me as a bass player, but it also makes most singers sound like Johnny Cash. A bit unfortunate on male vocals, disastrous on female vocals...
I have a few strategies on how to achieve a better tonal balance before I resort to using line-level EQ:
I have a few strategies on how to achieve a better tonal balance before I resort to using line-level EQ:
- Add baffle "wings" like they did on the real Voice of the Theater speakers (and Shearer horns) 70-80 years ago.
- Add more damping inside the cabs.
- Add BSC-filters to supress the upper bass a little bit.
Really nice build. In conflict to usual PA habits, the cheap material you used sound better than expensive plywood. Just not water proof, more heavy and easily damaged while transported.
I suppose you will not agree with my post right now, but 50 years of PA and HIFI have carved some things out for such a combination.
If you pick the right driver, these should play well from 100-800 Hz with HIFI. Placing them in a corner on the floor will add some bass, but for best results you will need a subwoofer.
You can not beat physics.
What you have build are large mid bass horns that can give a fantastic live sound, but lack the deep notes. In Pro audio these where often used with a 2x18 bass bin per side. Your high frequency horns will sound more relaxed too, if freed form anything under 800 Hz. You may end up with something like 80-120 Hz and 600-1200 Hz, depending on cross over order and driver, but this is the region to go.
To solve the time delay and room resonance problems you will need a DSP. You will find a DSP with some additional amps much cheaper and ages better than any passive x-over you may build, even after years of experimenting. If you change the room or position with such a custom passive x-over, you will have to design it all new.
Passives passive parts are extremely overpriced today, you get a decent DSP for the price of only the two large bass coils you will need. Capacitors are even more expensive.
If you don´t do passive x-over design for a living, get a DSP. Don´t waste time and money on an impossible passive task.
I suppose you will not agree with my post right now, but 50 years of PA and HIFI have carved some things out for such a combination.
If you pick the right driver, these should play well from 100-800 Hz with HIFI. Placing them in a corner on the floor will add some bass, but for best results you will need a subwoofer.
You can not beat physics.
What you have build are large mid bass horns that can give a fantastic live sound, but lack the deep notes. In Pro audio these where often used with a 2x18 bass bin per side. Your high frequency horns will sound more relaxed too, if freed form anything under 800 Hz. You may end up with something like 80-120 Hz and 600-1200 Hz, depending on cross over order and driver, but this is the region to go.
To solve the time delay and room resonance problems you will need a DSP. You will find a DSP with some additional amps much cheaper and ages better than any passive x-over you may build, even after years of experimenting. If you change the room or position with such a custom passive x-over, you will have to design it all new.
Passives passive parts are extremely overpriced today, you get a decent DSP for the price of only the two large bass coils you will need. Capacitors are even more expensive.
If you don´t do passive x-over design for a living, get a DSP. Don´t waste time and money on an impossible passive task.
You mention four things here.
Three are the same, ie EQ. This is not optional.
The fourth is about directivity, and this is what it's all about.
A little background for this project: I live in a small house with two fairly large audio systems, one in the living room with big DIY corner horns and a pair of wall-mounted front speakers with JBL 2202H midbass/mid drivers and 1" compression drivers in 695Hz LeCleach horns.
This system has remained unchanged for years and this is where I listen to music several hours each day.
The other system is in my hobby room (lately also home studio) and this is where all the weird things happen😃
For the last five years or so this system has been a three way rig with 200Hz LeCleach mids, big clumsy 80hz exponential midbass horns and folded, front loaded pipe/horn hybrids along the side walls, built to look like furniture rather than speakers.
An interesting system, but to be honest not very relaxing to listen to. Always under construction and more often than not something was disconnected or disassembled when I wanted to sit down and listen to a record.
Things didn't get better when I started to use the room as a rehearsal place/home studio, all the electronics and those long midbass horns suddenly occupied a lot of space.
Something had to be done but I didn't want to give up on my big LeCleach mid horns, as they represent a lot of labour (including a couple of failed attempts) and also sound very good.
Resorting to regular boxes below 400Hz would simply be too boring, so I decided to try "hornflex" cabs again.
Wait, "again"?
Yup, this is my third attempt. I made two different prototype designs some years ago, both with some interesting results but none of them where good enough to stay in the system.
The cabs shown here are much better than my earlier attempts, designed to be pushed all the way into the corners for maximum LF gain and loaded with better drivers.
These actually sound good, despite the somewhat exaggerated upper bass and slight lack of deep bass.
As mentioned earlier, this system is sort of a "playground" where creativity and experimentation perhaps is more important than the results.
If the goal hade been ultimate fidelity and a ruler straight frequency response I definitely would have made more rational decisions😃
Regarding crossovers: The system in my living room is a perfect candidate for DSP processing in the future. This system OTOH calls for copper coils and big, nasty paper-in-oil caps😁
(Until I change my mind, that is. It happens now and then...)
This system has remained unchanged for years and this is where I listen to music several hours each day.
The other system is in my hobby room (lately also home studio) and this is where all the weird things happen😃
For the last five years or so this system has been a three way rig with 200Hz LeCleach mids, big clumsy 80hz exponential midbass horns and folded, front loaded pipe/horn hybrids along the side walls, built to look like furniture rather than speakers.
An interesting system, but to be honest not very relaxing to listen to. Always under construction and more often than not something was disconnected or disassembled when I wanted to sit down and listen to a record.
Things didn't get better when I started to use the room as a rehearsal place/home studio, all the electronics and those long midbass horns suddenly occupied a lot of space.
Something had to be done but I didn't want to give up on my big LeCleach mid horns, as they represent a lot of labour (including a couple of failed attempts) and also sound very good.
Resorting to regular boxes below 400Hz would simply be too boring, so I decided to try "hornflex" cabs again.
Wait, "again"?
Yup, this is my third attempt. I made two different prototype designs some years ago, both with some interesting results but none of them where good enough to stay in the system.
The cabs shown here are much better than my earlier attempts, designed to be pushed all the way into the corners for maximum LF gain and loaded with better drivers.
These actually sound good, despite the somewhat exaggerated upper bass and slight lack of deep bass.
As mentioned earlier, this system is sort of a "playground" where creativity and experimentation perhaps is more important than the results.
If the goal hade been ultimate fidelity and a ruler straight frequency response I definitely would have made more rational decisions😃
Regarding crossovers: The system in my living room is a perfect candidate for DSP processing in the future. This system OTOH calls for copper coils and big, nasty paper-in-oil caps😁
(Until I change my mind, that is. It happens now and then...)
Not really.
It would be better not to design a crossover according to the room.
If you are designing a x-over in a room, you always design it for this room and the current position. I do not think he is going to move his gear into an anechoic room to do the x-over.
I may add: a DSP is the only rational and state of the art way to do a time delay and mode correction that may give a HIFI worthy end result.
The discussion about using a DSP or not is the same religious nonsense as vinyl records contra CD. Non HIFI reproduction is not more fun than well made HIFI, by the way. A very childish theory. Nice you stayed young.
If you want to spend a few 1000$ on fancy boutique nonsense coils, made from copper but sold for silver prices per pound, capacitors with bee wax and gold plated foils to make them look exotic, finally followed by some HIFI acceptable vintage equalizer, in theory there may be a comparable in room result possible. In practice just as realistic as growing tomatoes on Mars by the end of next year.
If you still live in pre CD times, trying passive and pretending to be "non digital" may be fun for you. We live in a free world, do as you like, hate what you want. Anyone can have his personal alternative facts today. The Voodoo HIFI market is there and always happy to take your money away, use it if you please.
Expensive playing with a system while having the aim to get it sub optimum is just a very special kind of audio masochism.
The argument against digital gear like DSP's has the consequence to ignore any recording vinyl or tape, made later than mid 80's. First commercial recordings where made on PCM starting 1971. So how do you want to get "analog sound" if the recording was made digital anyway, then pushed through an D/A converter and stored analog? Today any recording you hear was made analog or digital depending on the instrument, then stored and mixed digitally, finally amplified and transduced to your ear, analog again. Audio Taliban may to ignore this fact.
I may add: a DSP is the only rational and state of the art way to do a time delay and mode correction that may give a HIFI worthy end result.
The discussion about using a DSP or not is the same religious nonsense as vinyl records contra CD. Non HIFI reproduction is not more fun than well made HIFI, by the way. A very childish theory. Nice you stayed young.
If you want to spend a few 1000$ on fancy boutique nonsense coils, made from copper but sold for silver prices per pound, capacitors with bee wax and gold plated foils to make them look exotic, finally followed by some HIFI acceptable vintage equalizer, in theory there may be a comparable in room result possible. In practice just as realistic as growing tomatoes on Mars by the end of next year.
If you still live in pre CD times, trying passive and pretending to be "non digital" may be fun for you. We live in a free world, do as you like, hate what you want. Anyone can have his personal alternative facts today. The Voodoo HIFI market is there and always happy to take your money away, use it if you please.
Expensive playing with a system while having the aim to get it sub optimum is just a very special kind of audio masochism.
The argument against digital gear like DSP's has the consequence to ignore any recording vinyl or tape, made later than mid 80's. First commercial recordings where made on PCM starting 1971. So how do you want to get "analog sound" if the recording was made digital anyway, then pushed through an D/A converter and stored analog? Today any recording you hear was made analog or digital depending on the instrument, then stored and mixed digitally, finally amplified and transduced to your ear, analog again. Audio Taliban may to ignore this fact.
Well, I have no intention of paying thousands of dollars for fancy stcoils as I already have a rather nice selection of inductors and caps in my "junk"box.
What I don´t have is a DSP and I really don´t see the need for one here either, it should be a breeze to time align the mid horns with the LF cabs manually.
That´s how we masochists and childish Voodoo talibans has been doing it for the last 70 years or so😀
What I don´t have is a DSP and I really don´t see the need for one here either, it should be a breeze to time align the mid horns with the LF cabs manually.
That´s how we masochists and childish Voodoo talibans has been doing it for the last 70 years or so😀
ROTFLMAO! 🙂
Mine for the last 25 yrs is trying with statistically near zero results to expose/help Altec, etc., aficionados with their rehabs, 'upgrades', new construction projects. 🙁
1971 is when the Denon made the first PCM recorder, but the first pop record was in 1979. From Wikipedia, it could be wrong.
"In 1979, the first digital pop album, Bop till You Drop, was recorded. It was recorded in 50 kHz, 16-bit linear PCM using a 3M digital tape recorder"
It is an excellent album, I've enjoyed it for years, I just didn't know it was a piece of history.