Visaton inductor coils

[waxx]

I'm building a passive crossover for a speaker project, and i see easy to get and cheap visaton inductor coils everywhere in shops, while other brands need to be ordered (2 weeks delay) and are much more expensive. Has someone experience with those visaton coils in crossovers and are they any good?

This project does not have to be the best of the best (limited budget of the friend i'm helping) but still reasonable good.

 

[TBTL]

If there is a large difference in price, the coils might also differ in core material (if applicable), wire thickness, wire shape (round vs foil), whether the windings are glued together or loose etc. The Visaton air coils I tried were fine, though I didn't measure their real inductance.

 

[ICG]

To my experience the Visaton coils are always within their tolerance range. I have to second TBTLs statement, Visaton produces a wide band of quality and price, Visaton does not translate to "cheap" in quality. You can also try to get Monacor or Intertechnik parts of equal quality, at least Monacor is available almost everywhere.

 

[Lojzek]

Has someone experience with those visaton coils in crossovers and are they any good?

Visaton coils are just as good as any other decent coils. The values are within tolerance and the former quality is normal. Visaton is ideal for my DIY needs. The cheaper product lines is what I'm particularly interested in and these fulfill every performance aspect I care about.

 

[waxx]

Ok thanks, i mostly use Jantzen or Mundorf coils for crossovers i builded, i know those work very well. But for this project it's a bit to expensive (the budget is real low) for the futur owner so i'll try those Visatons...

 

[Phenoholic Anonymus]

From the test's i have seen (Hobby Hifi, Elektuur/ Elektor), the Visaton cored coils are better than Jantzen & Mundorf. Less distortion with small signal, take more power without saturation. Visaton does not present them as "audiophile" parts. But they sure know how to wind coils.

 

[ICG]

From the test's i have seen (Hobby Hifi, Elektuur/ Elektor), the Visaton cored coils are better than Jantzen & Mundorf. Less distortion with small signal, take more power without saturation. Visaton does not present them as "audiophile" parts. But they sure know how to wind coils.

Yes, I've seen these tests and measurements aswell. But these were mostly comparisons about the higher quality range of the Visaton parts. Nonetheless, even the cheaper parts are absolutely worth the money.

 

[Mario Pankov]

Visaton coils are not well impregnated, besides this - they`re like all others. For the same price I prefer the Jantzen ones, they also have lower resistance which speaks about copper purity. They`re also wound on spools, something I don`t like as when you tie them up with a plastic tie, the end of it would usually break if more force is applied (that goes for Intertechnik and Monacor ones too).

The capacitors are all horrible sounding, especially the black MKP ones. To me they sound grainy in the midrange. Resistors are like all others.

 

[Phenoholic Anonymus]

I agree on the air coils. "Back Lack" is better. The Visaton LR ferrit coils measure outstanding. I don't know if the topic starter needs cored coils? Low budget and dcr would lead to cored coils?

 

[Lojzek]

There is a great advantage to the inductors wound on a former of some sort being easy to modify its inductance value to either of the sides, and you can easily install a core if you need it. Something a golden ear could never do.

 

[ShaneF]

I find the solen coils are very well made.

 

[ICG]

Visaton coils are not well impregnated, [...]

What do you mean by that? Do you mean bad insulaton paint? I've never had any issues.

For the same price I prefer the Jantzen ones, they also have lower resistance which speaks about copper purity.

No, it doesn't. It speaks firstly of a different coil geometry and insulation layer thickness which results in different coil wire length.
Since I got somehow the feeling you won't believe me anyway: Calculate 3 differnt coils, in one you change the geometry, in the other vary the purity of the copper. Simply do the math yourself.

They`re also wound on spools, something I don`t like as when you tie them up with a plastic tie, the end of it would usually break if more force is applied (that goes for Intertechnik and Monacor ones too).

Has it ever ocurred the thought to you thy might not be intended for this kind of mounting? I mean, you surely dont expect something to be of bad quality because of the inability to use it correctly?

 

[Mario Pankov]

What do you mean by that? Do you mean bad insulaton paint? I've never had any issues.

No, I mean that once you unwind the initial layer of copper, which is covered in varnish, the remaining layers are loosely covered and often not at all. I have used about 20 coils from Visaton so far, from different values, and needed to unwind all due to project specifics.

No, it doesn't. It speaks firstly of a different coil geometry and insulation layer thickness which results in different coil wire length.
Since I got somehow the feeling you won't believe me anyway: Calculate 3 differnt coils, in one you change the geometry, in the other vary the purity of the copper. Simply do the math yourself.

While this is true for coils that differ in winding geometry, it fails to satisfy a comparison of two coils with almost identical air gap diameters. Comparing two differently wound coils would be lame and guess If I did it? Ceteris paribus, resistance of Jantzen coils appears lower.

Has it ever ocurred the thought to you thy might not be intended for this kind of mounting? I mean, you surely dont expect something to be of bad quality because of the inability to use it correctly?

How would you securely mount them, give me an example?

 

[ICG]

No, I mean that once you unwind the initial layer of copper, which is covered in varnish, the remaining layers are loosely covered and often not at all. I have used about 20 coils from Visaton so far, from different values, and needed to unwind all due to project specifics.

That explains it. Well, they aren't made for that, other coils are better for that kind of usage. But that doesn't make the Visaton coils worse.

While this is true for coils that differ in winding geometry, it fails to satisfy a comparison of two coils with almost identical air gap diameters. Comparing two differently wound coils would be lame and guess If I did it? Ceteris paribus, resistance of Jantzen coils appears lower.

About what kind of difference in DCR do we talk about here? One digit after the decimal or more like two? Did you measure the inductance aswell? A friend used Jantzen coils and told me they always tend to have a negative tolerance, which would mean they use shorter wires. I can't disprove nor confirm it because I've never used Jantzen coils myself which I measured but I would not try to presume or suggest worse material without having proof.

How would you securely mount them, give me an example?

You can use glue (hot glue i.e. but also others), a (preferable non-ferromagnetic) screw, a washer (scrap MDF pieces works great there and you can even use the zip ties with it, if you want) or if you want to mount it 90° up to avoid interference induction with other nearby coils, you can cut the spool overhang tangential and use then a ziptie or use a scrap MDF piece, cut a V-shape into it and ziptie it over it and so on. There are a lot of possibilities, some of them can't be used without a spool. It's just different, not worse just because you aren't used to it.

 

[Mario Pankov]

But that doesn't make the Visaton coils worse.

It does because of the current being fed to them by the amplifier. If not impregnated well, they`d sing.

About what kind of difference in DCR do we talk about here? One digit after the decimal or more like two? Did you measure the inductance aswell? A friend used Jantzen coils and told me they always tend to have a negative tolerance, which would mean they use shorter wires.

On the 1.35mH 1mm ones it was 0R09. The others I do not remember. I haven`t measured the inductance but despite the usual 5-10% tolerance found on many components, they usually measure much much closer to the stated value. But your point is if I have compared a coil with higher inductance, so more wire, to a lower inductance one. This I do not remember doing, so if we assume a large deviation in the inductance from coil to coil, it might cause some discrepancy. If interested, I have a bunch of different Jantzen coils with the same value, can check them for consistency and whether they`re below or above stated value. The small coils I have measured are within 1% even if they state 5%. Jantzen have many coils of the same value with a different DCR (small difference so not deliberately engineered this way), price and number, not so sure why...

You can use glue (hot glue i.e. but also others), a (preferable non-ferromagnetic) screw, a washer (scrap MDF pieces works great there and you can even use the zip ties with it, if you want) or if you want to mount it 90° up to avoid interference induction with other nearby coils, you can cut the spool overhang tangential and use then a ziptie or use a scrap MDF piece, cut a V-shape into it and ziptie it over it and so on. There are a lot of possibilities, some of them can't be used without a spool. It's just different, not worse just because you aren't used to it.

I have used both types - bare ones and spool wound and do not like the spool wound because of their tendency to break when clipped with a plastic tie. The spool also can take space and sometimes (like with WMTMW and similar) its scarce, but thats a minor issue. You can solder it, glue it with hotmelt and then after some extensive listening, if it does not sound right - you`d need to melt it again. Other types of glue would have poor adhesion to spools because most are ABS which can only be welded with an ABS rod, afaik. All methods will work but are time consuming and time is a resource we don`t get back To me, two holes and a plastic tie are enough (as you call it a ziptie).

 

[ICG]

On the 1.35mH 1mm ones it was 0R09.

You do realize that's a. well within the tolerance and b. that's even within the tolerance of your measuring setup (ohmmeter, cable, plugs, clamp and measuring probe)?

The others I do not remember.

How comes you remember this one that well and the others not at all? Ah, it's convenient I guess.

I haven`t measured the inductance [...]

Ah. You haven't but you are sure the Jantzen are better and lower tolerance. Yeah, I get it.
I just compared the prices of the Jantzen coils and the equal counterparts from Visaton. Guess what? Here in Germany the Jantzen are around 15-30% more expensive.

I have used both types - bare ones and spool wound and do not like the spool wound because of their tendency to break when clipped with a plastic tie.

Yeah, i get it. It comes down to you don't know how to use them and that's why they are baaaad.

The spool also can take space and sometimes (like with WMTMW and similar) its scarce, but thats a minor issue. You can solder it, glue it with hotmelt and then after some extensive listening, if it does not sound right - you`d need to melt it again. Other types of glue would have poor adhesion to spools because most are ABS which can only be welded with an ABS rod, afaik. All methods will work but are time consuming and time is a resource we don`t get back To me, two holes and a plastic tie are enough (as you call it a ziptie).

It seems you haven't had much of experience with building speakers. Firstly you do not develop a crossover by gluing everything down and squeezing it into the box, you keep it outside of the enclosure, develop and change it and it AFTER you are done, you mount it. That way you can save so much more of the most precious resource you have. And for that it does not matter at all, which type of mounting you use at all.
Oh, and what happened to all the other methods of mounting them I mentioned? Yeah, let's forget about that because the glue is the only one which can make the spool coils look bad.

Secondly, if you are complaining about the size of the spool, you are doing your crossovers wrong. Coils have to have distance to each other because they induce their field into each other. You complain about singing and don't care about that?
(I will reply about the singing later)

 

[Mario Pankov]

ICG - besides the tolerance thing on the first comment and excluding my ohm meter as it has much higher precision, all you say is plain wrong. I`d be curious to see how you`d develop a crossover on a sealed speaker or a BVR this way, because i have built a few and you simply cannot. Same applies for TL. And I see why you reacted this way, because Visaton is a German company and your ego felt offended somehow. I have lived in Germany and have encountered this several times so will step out. My first comment denotes my opinion and I stick with it as it is based on facts I have measured (despite the poor accuracy of the Fluke 179). Auf Wiedersehen.

 

[Lojzek]

The capacitors are all horrible sounding, especially the black MKP ones. To me they sound grainy in the midrange. Resistors are like all others.

There is some logic in thinking that Visaton caps must be sounding "grainy" or whatever you want to call it. If they had make such a mistake with NPE caps, then it's probably not much better with higher end specimens.