HI all,
I had just hook up 2 UCD160AD module with STD powersupply from Hypex via a 500VA 30-0-30 transformer, everything test good on a fullrager (fostex 208), so..............
Brought the above mention UCD amps to my friend place to test how it sound, the room size were 10 feet (w) x 15 feet (L) x 10 feet (H), the speaker were JMLAB GRANDE UTOPIA (15 inch woofer)............................
The source is SONY 5000X top loading CD player, goes to Audio Note M7 tube pre-amp, power amp were his audio space 50W el37 pushpull tube and mine UCD as above.............
the test cd, Drum (big drum) cd, when compare the sound, feeling like "crashing the UCD", totally no dynamic and volumn can't goes up, very bad distortion at slight high volumn compare to the Tube power amp, the tube power amp (50W) can drive the grande utopia to very very loud volumn without any distortion!!!!
Why???? is it because tube pre-amp output impedance cannot match with UCD input impedance (we try 3 type of tube pre with same result matise atom and Audio Note M1)????
Is it because the convertion of single ended output to balanced input of the UCD (Shorted V(-) to ground at the pre-amp output?
Or the Hypex STD power supply are just not good enough?
I personally do not think that the UCD amp can be so bad, there must be something not right, .........................hmmmmmmm, sad.....
Any one got any clue???????
thanks
I had just hook up 2 UCD160AD module with STD powersupply from Hypex via a 500VA 30-0-30 transformer, everything test good on a fullrager (fostex 208), so..............
Brought the above mention UCD amps to my friend place to test how it sound, the room size were 10 feet (w) x 15 feet (L) x 10 feet (H), the speaker were JMLAB GRANDE UTOPIA (15 inch woofer)............................
The source is SONY 5000X top loading CD player, goes to Audio Note M7 tube pre-amp, power amp were his audio space 50W el37 pushpull tube and mine UCD as above.............
the test cd, Drum (big drum) cd, when compare the sound, feeling like "crashing the UCD", totally no dynamic and volumn can't goes up, very bad distortion at slight high volumn compare to the Tube power amp, the tube power amp (50W) can drive the grande utopia to very very loud volumn without any distortion!!!!
Why???? is it because tube pre-amp output impedance cannot match with UCD input impedance (we try 3 type of tube pre with same result matise atom and Audio Note M1)????
Is it because the convertion of single ended output to balanced input of the UCD (Shorted V(-) to ground at the pre-amp output?
Or the Hypex STD power supply are just not good enough?
I personally do not think that the UCD amp can be so bad, there must be something not right, .........................hmmmmmmm, sad.....
Any one got any clue???????
thanks
Hi,
If impedance curve of non Be version of Grande Utopia resembles curve of the Be version then most probably current limit of UcD 180 (8-9A) is kicking in. If listening to the drums is your main objective, you would be better served with UcD400 or even 700. If you listened to anything else besides the drums, I would be interested in your impressions.
Attached is impedance curve of Grande Utopia Be as measured by Stereophile.
Best regards,
Jaka Racman
If impedance curve of non Be version of Grande Utopia resembles curve of the Be version then most probably current limit of UcD 180 (8-9A) is kicking in. If listening to the drums is your main objective, you would be better served with UcD400 or even 700. If you listened to anything else besides the drums, I would be interested in your impressions.
Attached is impedance curve of Grande Utopia Be as measured by Stereophile.
Best regards,
Jaka Racman
Attachments
HAH! and people think I"m crazy for the size of my little speakers....
I'd love to find an impedance curve for Cerwin-Vega VS-150's if anyone has ever seen one or measured them, they're rated at 4ohms nominal and I suspect will have dips... I'll be driving them from UCD180's as well.
SEIJI, input impedance doesn't have to be matched with the source, it just has to not load it down. That means they should differ by at least 10X as a rule of thumb, and preferably more like 100X.
With the 100K ohm input impedance of the Hypex modules you're not going to have a problem there.
Regards,
Chris
I'd love to find an impedance curve for Cerwin-Vega VS-150's if anyone has ever seen one or measured them, they're rated at 4ohms nominal and I suspect will have dips... I'll be driving them from UCD180's as well.
SEIJI, input impedance doesn't have to be matched with the source, it just has to not load it down. That means they should differ by at least 10X as a rule of thumb, and preferably more like 100X.
With the 100K ohm input impedance of the Hypex modules you're not going to have a problem there.
Regards,
Chris
UCD AD400 VS el34PP
Hello,
I had try with UCD400AD with Hypex HQ power supply 500VA transfo, picture as follow, the volumn is better than UCD180AD, but......... still "crack" or "clip" or less dynamic vs the el34PP tube amp at certain loudness.............................
Very very sad............................ is the ucd400ad can really deliver 210Watt into 8ohm load or 400watt into 4ohm?????? a big question man.......
Hello,
I had try with UCD400AD with Hypex HQ power supply 500VA transfo, picture as follow, the volumn is better than UCD180AD, but......... still "crack" or "clip" or less dynamic vs the el34PP tube amp at certain loudness.............................
Very very sad............................ is the ucd400ad can really deliver 210Watt into 8ohm load or 400watt into 4ohm?????? a big question man.......
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have a modified WAD Kit88 tube amp, GEC KT88's,big Sowter output transformers etc.
Its only rated around 40watts but I was amazed how loud this thing can go, it actually sounds much louder than any of my higher rated diy solid state amps🙂
I'm also thinking about trying a pair of Hypex modules, I thought the UCD400's may be well overkill power wise for my needs so I guess I may be ok
Its only rated around 40watts but I was amazed how loud this thing can go, it actually sounds much louder than any of my higher rated diy solid state amps🙂
I'm also thinking about trying a pair of Hypex modules, I thought the UCD400's may be well overkill power wise for my needs so I guess I may be ok
Re: UCD AD400 VS el34PP
Yeah, in the my setup 180w@8Ohm easy, and limited only by the rail voltage. I think, that you must see to the UcD400 input, maybe there clipping occured. Anyway oscilloscope will help you.
SEIJI said:
Yeah, in the my setup 180w@8Ohm easy, and limited only by the rail voltage. I think, that you must see to the UcD400 input, maybe there clipping occured. Anyway oscilloscope will help you.
Re: UCD AD400 VS el34PP
I can`t believe that, your setup looks nice. Is the power supply voltage OK, I guess so as the UcD400 could go a bit louder than the UcD180. How can that 50W tube amp provide more power? Does the tube amp clip in a very soft way so that you do not hear it? I can`t believe an UcD giving less power than a 50W tube amp.
Get a scope and look at the output signals of both the tube and UcD to see where they clip.
Best regards
Gertjan
SEIJI said:
I can`t believe that, your setup looks nice. Is the power supply voltage OK, I guess so as the UcD400 could go a bit louder than the UcD180. How can that 50W tube amp provide more power? Does the tube amp clip in a very soft way so that you do not hear it? I can`t believe an UcD giving less power than a 50W tube amp.
Get a scope and look at the output signals of both the tube and UcD to see where they clip.
Best regards
Gertjan
phase_accurate said:
Hi Charles,
Just to confirm that I understand you right, are you saying that this so called "playing louder" of a so called "good" PP tube amp is actually due to the distortion generated by the soft clipping?
That would be interesting, I have never owned a tube amp so I can't speak from my own experience but it starts to make sense. I have the same type of experience when comparing a so called "high end" AB amp in comparison with UcD. The AB amp sounds louder (or better annoying) when I crank up the level, with UcD you can keep on cranking up, it stays clean, as a result the percieved loudness seems to be less while you are actually working on getting some serious hearing damage. Maybe the tube sound is less annoying then a cranked up AB amp while the UcD stays clean until it clips?
Would be really interesting to hook up a scope on the output of the tube amp in question and actually see if it is louder (in terms of output voltage generated, not in perceived loudness) in comparison with the UcD modules.
Best regards
Gertjan
Hi Gertjan,
I think you nailed it with the keyword being "loud".
There's a difference between loud and clean power and alot of people dont' know it because of the junk they're used to listening to.
I also understand that high SPL isn't that bad for your hearing provided it is clean, and it's the "loud" clipping that causes the most damage both to your speakers and your hearing.
I thought the UCD (for a time) did in fact use a form of soft clipping, but was since changed. Maybe some UCD modules are louder than others 🙂
I think you nailed it with the keyword being "loud".
There's a difference between loud and clean power and alot of people dont' know it because of the junk they're used to listening to.
I also understand that high SPL isn't that bad for your hearing provided it is clean, and it's the "loud" clipping that causes the most damage both to your speakers and your hearing.
I thought the UCD (for a time) did in fact use a form of soft clipping, but was since changed. Maybe some UCD modules are louder than others 🙂
I think you mix up things a little.
Yes there are amps that sound loud because of their annoying quality. Some will do this at low levels already and hence sound louder at given power.
With a tube amp you can crank up more until the clipping distortion gets annoying because it clips softly. I.e. you still get a usable output signal at higher levels than their nominal output power.
Regards
Charles
Yes there are amps that sound loud because of their annoying quality. Some will do this at low levels already and hence sound louder at given power.
With a tube amp you can crank up more until the clipping distortion gets annoying because it clips softly. I.e. you still get a usable output signal at higher levels than their nominal output power.
Regards
Charles
Hi,
Nope I'm not all that mixed up, but I do agree with you.
The junk most listen to being commercial stuff, with their typical supplies, clip very early, and makes it very loud.
I dont' consider clipping of any kind to be usable power though, although I'm sure soft clipping is easier on everything.
Nope I'm not all that mixed up, but I do agree with you.
The junk most listen to being commercial stuff, with their typical supplies, clip very early, and makes it very loud.
I dont' consider clipping of any kind to be usable power though, although I'm sure soft clipping is easier on everything.
My mistake 🙂
I wonder if our OP might try bridging the modules since it seems to be a power issue?
There's no such thing as a zobel for the lower end of the curve is there?
I wonder if our OP might try bridging the modules since it seems to be a power issue?
There's no such thing as a zobel for the lower end of the curve is there?
phase_accurate said:
Hi Charles,
Let me translate this in my own words, forgive me if I sound blunt 🙂
So you crank up the tube amp, it chops of the peaks of your signal (dynamic compression) and it does not sound too bad since it does that in a refined way (soft clipping). Actually it may sound loud as all signals that stay below clipping level are amplified to a higher level than with another amp that would clip more audible (so you would turn down the volume). To me this sounds like the tube amp that clips earlier does not give you an accurate representation of the real recording as it soft clips and may compress the dynamics while the other amp gives you a more accurate representation but the party is abruptly over once you hit the clipping point. So it becomes a matter of taste which clipping behavior you prefer. I prefer the latter one but to be honest I have never heard any clipping with my UcD amps.
I guess this is what you mean?
Best regards
Gertjan
classd4sure said:
In my first serious experience with class d I was preparing a show unit powered subwoofer for the CES. My design was direct off-line with optical input signal isolation. The box was a sealed design with two large driven cones physically opposite each other (then the center of mass does not move during cone excursions). The design could deliver repeated peak currents and voltages of something like 25 to 30 amps at 120 to 135 volts.
With the companion full range speakers, it was unbearably loud (to me, anyway - don't like loud music), so to make sure the sub was performing correctly at limiting I listened to it without the full ranges speaker for several hours. This was a mistake as it seems bass-only does not sound psychologically as loud and damaging as it really is (this sub actually flapped pant legs and rattled windows and ceiling tiles). After the rush to check out the unit was done and was shipped off to CES, I went home feeling fine after a productive day of work.
That evening, I thought I'd relax by practicing piano awhile. I couldn't understand why that night my piano sounded really weird like a toy piano and thought something had happened to it - even asked my wife if someone had been pounding the keyboard and damaged it. Of, course, the stings in the piano were normal, but the "strings" in my ears weren't. Fortunately, my piano magically "fixed" itself by the next day.
🙂 -- analogspiceman
Re: Re: UCD AD400 VS el34PP
Hi Gertjan,
I have 20(twenty) modules of UCD180AD, 4 modules of UCD400AD, 1 std hypex power supply, 2 HQ hypex power supply, all purchase from hypex Singapore Dealer.................the above purchase were pretty much due to the "Rave" review over here in this forums (pretty much influnce by you Gertjan)..........previuosly a few of us are really into Tubes amp, like making some 845 drive 845 amplifier using fully tailor make silver transformer Etc.........
Ok here's the story, after build up the UCD180AD on test board, I decided a test, when to my friends place which he diy the grande utopia as following picture show, good frequency responce of 18Hz to 25Khz was measured.
Inviting together recording engineer from Singapore Chinese Ochestra, Singapore Sympnony Ochestra, Esplanade (A Singapore state concert hall that building cost around 600million USD) and Sony SACD recording studio Japan...........
First test CD, the recording of Drum using DPA mike recorded by the SSO R.Engineer, and play with the EL34PP tube amp @ the sound level the SSO guy thinks similar during the live performance........................very good in all our opinion......
When we hook up the UCD180AD, o no man........... is start crack like a fire cracker before it even reach 80% of the previous volumn.........................
every body were dissapointed with the performance of the UCD180AD..................................
Ok I build up the UCD400AD with Hypex HQ power supply, and test agian, it is going more dynamic vs the UCD180AD, but still crack badly vs the el34pp at the same volumn........
Out of the 4 recording engineer, only the guy from SCO were hifi equipment nuts, the rest are totally no interest in so call hifi equitment but they care alot on their MIKE and mixer and the speaker they are using for monitoring were from Genelac and TAD....
In my opinion, less don't talks about technical data, but the real sound that output from the speaker counts the most...... serious audioble cracking means cracking.....
However I will be still building the UCD modules as well as the SCO recording! as our speaker (yes we order together) are much more efficient @ about 100db/w/m TAD drivers at the size of 6ft(H) x 3.5ft(w) x 2.5ft(D) that were design and build in Japan which due deliver in 3 weeks time......
Gertjan, pls email me your address to me at kinwasu@yahoo.com.sg as i would like to send you the Drum recording to test if you want........
here's the speaker :
Thanks...............
Hi Gertjan,
I have 20(twenty) modules of UCD180AD, 4 modules of UCD400AD, 1 std hypex power supply, 2 HQ hypex power supply, all purchase from hypex Singapore Dealer.................the above purchase were pretty much due to the "Rave" review over here in this forums (pretty much influnce by you Gertjan)..........previuosly a few of us are really into Tubes amp, like making some 845 drive 845 amplifier using fully tailor make silver transformer Etc.........
Ok here's the story, after build up the UCD180AD on test board, I decided a test, when to my friends place which he diy the grande utopia as following picture show, good frequency responce of 18Hz to 25Khz was measured.
Inviting together recording engineer from Singapore Chinese Ochestra, Singapore Sympnony Ochestra, Esplanade (A Singapore state concert hall that building cost around 600million USD) and Sony SACD recording studio Japan...........
First test CD, the recording of Drum using DPA mike recorded by the SSO R.Engineer, and play with the EL34PP tube amp @ the sound level the SSO guy thinks similar during the live performance........................very good in all our opinion......
When we hook up the UCD180AD, o no man........... is start crack like a fire cracker before it even reach 80% of the previous volumn.........................
every body were dissapointed with the performance of the UCD180AD..................................
Ok I build up the UCD400AD with Hypex HQ power supply, and test agian, it is going more dynamic vs the UCD180AD, but still crack badly vs the el34pp at the same volumn........
Out of the 4 recording engineer, only the guy from SCO were hifi equipment nuts, the rest are totally no interest in so call hifi equitment but they care alot on their MIKE and mixer and the speaker they are using for monitoring were from Genelac and TAD....
In my opinion, less don't talks about technical data, but the real sound that output from the speaker counts the most...... serious audioble cracking means cracking.....
However I will be still building the UCD modules as well as the SCO recording! as our speaker (yes we order together) are much more efficient @ about 100db/w/m TAD drivers at the size of 6ft(H) x 3.5ft(w) x 2.5ft(D) that were design and build in Japan which due deliver in 3 weeks time......
Gertjan, pls email me your address to me at kinwasu@yahoo.com.sg as i would like to send you the Drum recording to test if you want........
here's the speaker :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Thanks...............
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