I'm sure this has been asked before but i can't seem to find the right keyword for a search..
With the risk of opening a can of worm: when i see Telefunken 12AX7 being sold around USD150 for a pair here in Indonesia while for the same price i can get a huge pile of Russian 6N2P, i wonder if they make that huge difference in sound? Or is this the classic case of overhyped audiophile parts like the expensive GZ34?
Okay perhaps comparing 12AX7 and 6N2P is wrong, but you get the idea: there are cheap 12AX7 out there as well. I just think the topology and design as a whole is more important than one part.
I haven't seen any Solid State amp enthusiast swapping different brands of transistors and say this is better than that. I'm new at this so probably i haven't seen a lot.
I have built a preamp using plain 6N23P and to me they sound just fine. I'm very doubtful that replacing them with exotic gold-pin E88CC would make that huge difference in sound quality, even if i change the values of the other components to match the new tubes (just to ensure the biases are similar).
It would be very difficult to convince me to buy those Telefunken but am i really missing out by not doing so?
With the risk of opening a can of worm: when i see Telefunken 12AX7 being sold around USD150 for a pair here in Indonesia while for the same price i can get a huge pile of Russian 6N2P, i wonder if they make that huge difference in sound? Or is this the classic case of overhyped audiophile parts like the expensive GZ34?
Okay perhaps comparing 12AX7 and 6N2P is wrong, but you get the idea: there are cheap 12AX7 out there as well. I just think the topology and design as a whole is more important than one part.
I haven't seen any Solid State amp enthusiast swapping different brands of transistors and say this is better than that. I'm new at this so probably i haven't seen a lot.
I have built a preamp using plain 6N23P and to me they sound just fine. I'm very doubtful that replacing them with exotic gold-pin E88CC would make that huge difference in sound quality, even if i change the values of the other components to match the new tubes (just to ensure the biases are similar).
It would be very difficult to convince me to buy those Telefunken but am i really missing out by not doing so?
To a limited extent you get what you pay for; some valve manufacturers were more careful than others so you might get lower noise or longer life. To a large extent you are paying for a designer label, which is dictated by fashion. This is for NOS.
Modern valves are more of a lottery; they could be fine, or could be unusable rubbish.
Modern valves are more of a lottery; they could be fine, or could be unusable rubbish.
Yes, there are sound differences between tubes, more or less obvious - depending on the quality of your amplification chain and your ears.
For instance, with headphones and my pair of ears, 6N23P-EV sound better than plain 6N23P. Also I preferred NOS Tung-Sol 12AX7 to 6N2P-EV.
But the idea with DIY is to avoid ridiculously expensive "audiophile" tubes - there are cheap tubes that sound much better than a Telefunken 12AX7, only you have to design and optimize your circuits and stay away from mainstream, classic schematics.
For instance, with headphones and my pair of ears, 6N23P-EV sound better than plain 6N23P. Also I preferred NOS Tung-Sol 12AX7 to 6N2P-EV.
But the idea with DIY is to avoid ridiculously expensive "audiophile" tubes - there are cheap tubes that sound much better than a Telefunken 12AX7, only you have to design and optimize your circuits and stay away from mainstream, classic schematics.
I believe there can be subtle differences in distortion spectra between different brands of valve. Morgan Jones covered this in his book where he tested hundreds of dual triodes of different makes. However, it's not as simple as "The old Telefunkens sound best". Jones got very good results from newer Russian made tubes.
As far as transistors go there is no contest, the new ones outperform the old ones massively. Power transistors for output stages just keep on getting faster and higher gain. An amp designed around the latest devices wouldn't even work with older ones.
As far as transistors go there is no contest, the new ones outperform the old ones massively. Power transistors for output stages just keep on getting faster and higher gain. An amp designed around the latest devices wouldn't even work with older ones.
Telefunken 12AX7/ECC83 may sound better than cheap 6N2P, if you know which one you are listening.
I have noticed that the best sounding tube amplifiers are those, that the hobbyists have built as their first project.
I have noticed that the best sounding tube amplifiers are those, that the hobbyists have built as their first project.
Yes, as the old saying goes, "The best sounding amp (speaker, etc) is the one you built yourself" 🙂
This may be a psychological effect, but it's still better than buying high-end gear, as you are saving money, having fun and learning about electronics in the process!
This may be a psychological effect, but it's still better than buying high-end gear, as you are saving money, having fun and learning about electronics in the process!
I respectfully disagree. In my experiments, some tube brands consistently sounded different to others.
Can you reliably, say more than 90 %:ly, find which amplifier has been built with 6N23 and which with 6N23P, if you don't know that ?
Well yeah, it is entirely possible that one tube might sound different to another.
But to say that the rarest, most expensive NOS tubes always sound best is oversimplifying things.
But to say that the rarest, most expensive NOS tubes always sound best is oversimplifying things.
Factors that influence a tube's sound/performance, in no particular order:
- anode and cathode geometry (surface area, distances)
- electrode composition and coating (anode metal and coating material, cathode composition, grid plating, etc)
- grid type (frame grid/classic)
- assembly precision and inter-electrode distance tolerances (depends on the skill of the operator and the machine's performance)
- mechanic rigidity of the structure (some are more microphonic/resonant than others)
- presence of anti-microphony structures (ECC88 has mica cathode springs, E88CC doesn't)
- filament structure (some are wound to reduce AC hum)
- internal shielding
- quality control (all tubes are not created equal, some are more or less close to datasheet specs. "Special quality" tubes are consistently better/more reliable)
- mica spacers (3 mica tubes are better, because the getter flash is better isolated and does not contaminate the electrodes. Also, tubes where internal spacers do not touch the glass sound different)
- contact pin plating metal type
- ...
- anode and cathode geometry (surface area, distances)
- electrode composition and coating (anode metal and coating material, cathode composition, grid plating, etc)
- grid type (frame grid/classic)
- assembly precision and inter-electrode distance tolerances (depends on the skill of the operator and the machine's performance)
- mechanic rigidity of the structure (some are more microphonic/resonant than others)
- presence of anti-microphony structures (ECC88 has mica cathode springs, E88CC doesn't)
- filament structure (some are wound to reduce AC hum)
- internal shielding
- quality control (all tubes are not created equal, some are more or less close to datasheet specs. "Special quality" tubes are consistently better/more reliable)
- mica spacers (3 mica tubes are better, because the getter flash is better isolated and does not contaminate the electrodes. Also, tubes where internal spacers do not touch the glass sound different)
- contact pin plating metal type
- ...
Vincent has been very clear in the past that he does not evaluate his sonic claims ears-only.
Not just possible- certain. Noise and microphony, well over established audible thresholds, are often seen. Grid current distortion well over established thresholds are sometimes seen (not brand specific, it's a type-by-type or sometimes sample-by-sample issue). There are some very poorly designed circuits that do not function properly without the use of tubes having some idiosyncratic property. And there are some circuits which rely on section to section matching (I plead guilty on that one)- but again, that's a sample-to-sample issue, not a brand one,
If it's important to you that your tube is a 1962 vintage Valvo with the D-shaped getter and an L-series date code, that's a matter of collector mentality and is unrelated to actual sonic performance.
When you say "they sound different", it's of course on the same exact circuit right? I mean take a 12AX7 preamp and swap the 12AX7 with different makes, hereby keeping any other factors constant?
In that case, if Telefunken 12AX7 consistently sound better than, say, cheaper Mullard in blind test (you are simply listening blindfolded, you don't swap the tubes yourself), surely the price is worth it? Is this the case?
Also, both being built from scratch with correct part value and topology, is it possible to make a 6N2P preamp sound as good as expensive 12AX7?
We have been saying "sound good" but therein lies a problem as well.. "Good" is subjective matter. Yikes.. i can't avoid talking about old audio topics.
In that case, if Telefunken 12AX7 consistently sound better than, say, cheaper Mullard in blind test (you are simply listening blindfolded, you don't swap the tubes yourself), surely the price is worth it? Is this the case?
Also, both being built from scratch with correct part value and topology, is it possible to make a 6N2P preamp sound as good as expensive 12AX7?
We have been saying "sound good" but therein lies a problem as well.. "Good" is subjective matter. Yikes.. i can't avoid talking about old audio topics.
When I built my first tube hifi amp, I had some problems with channel balance. It was a Williamson type circuit with a 12AT7 as the first stage, and I couldn't find two 12AT7s well enough matched in my collection of tubes. The stereo image would always end up skewed to one side or the other, either because of differences in gain, or because some of the used tubes in my collection just didn't work too great. Or maybe two tubes would match but one of them hummed a lot, etc. I ended up buying a half dozen NOS East German RFT tubes (about $17 each) and selecting the closest two.
I think that little story is representative of the kinds of differences you might expect between tubes and the audibility of them.
"Good" is subjective, but in hi-fi amp building, we can always substitute "accurate", right? 🙂
I think that little story is representative of the kinds of differences you might expect between tubes and the audibility of them.
"Good" is subjective, but in hi-fi amp building, we can always substitute "accurate", right? 🙂
Could be a comment on my own scrappy tube collecting practices too. 🙂 Most of the tubes I have are used ones salvaged from equipment, "tested" on the basis that they seemed to work well enough when plugged into a guitar amp. Hardly very scientific.
tube = disposable part.
(like tyres on your car)
Its problematic when you start saying tubes and the best sound.
Some tubes sound "warmer" than others and it depends on what you think good tube sound is!
I can say I have some NOS EL34 and some CVC EL34 from the 80's and the CVC sound better.
Tubes that have been run for a couple of years also can sound better than new modern tubes.
Nothing wrong with Russian tubes they can sound very good.
NOS is not an indication of a good tube<<its just old stock. 😀
In fact I can say I probably prefer Russian tubes to NOS. Perhaps the Russian tubes are NOS..LOL
So continue to tube roll and end up with a box full of tubes you don't like and would never use in a project. 🙂
Regards
M. Gregg
(like tyres on your car)
Its problematic when you start saying tubes and the best sound.
Some tubes sound "warmer" than others and it depends on what you think good tube sound is!
I can say I have some NOS EL34 and some CVC EL34 from the 80's and the CVC sound better.
Tubes that have been run for a couple of years also can sound better than new modern tubes.
Nothing wrong with Russian tubes they can sound very good.
NOS is not an indication of a good tube<<its just old stock. 😀
In fact I can say I probably prefer Russian tubes to NOS. Perhaps the Russian tubes are NOS..LOL
So continue to tube roll and end up with a box full of tubes you don't like and would never use in a project. 🙂
Regards
M. Gregg
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