Pleasant sound, with rich timbre. That is at least how I perceive it.
Mids sound more real, especially vocals. Kind of like a blanket in front of the speakers that's been removed.
As far as I've understood, this is due to the harmonic distortion characteristics of tube amps.
Are these characteristics achievable with a tube preamp, or is it more due to tube power amp stage?
Kind of hard to describe "tube sound" in grave detail. Tube amps simply sound better to my ears then transistor amps (mids and up...) And belive me, I was very suprised when I first listened to a tube amp, as I was quite the skeptic.
My question would be, does this perception relate to the pre or power tubes in an amp? Maybe something else?
My question would be, does this perception relate to the pre or power tubes in an amp? Maybe something else?
i understand tube sound as majority is from 2nd order harmonics (from whole thd%), and odd harmonics minimum amount.Does the "tube sound" originate from the pre amp tubes, or the power amp tubes? Both?
I see quite a few transistor amps with a pre amp tube. Is there any point to this?
Can one achieve the "tube sound" from simply having a tube circuit in the pre amp stage?
Cheers
do i am right? i dont know
but there are also other factors, like distortion in opt -core nonlinearity and noise.
interesting: Barkhausen effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This has been discussed at great lenght before on this forum, but topology seems to matter a great deal.
For example tubes have low gain and (at best) really good inherent linearity, so they tend to use little or no NFB at all. SS on the other hand always uses a lot of NFB.
Things like OT or no OT and different PS solutions matter a lot also.
People who regulate their B+ seem to get rid of a big chunk of "the tube sound", and end up with more transparency. My experience seems to favour no NFB at all, but this means only using very good tubes like the 4P1L and such.
I define transparency as the inability to ascertain whether a sound is reproduced or coming from my immediate surroundings. Some movies can be really annoying or creepy because you don't know whether somebody is knocking your wall or if it's the movie!
For example tubes have low gain and (at best) really good inherent linearity, so they tend to use little or no NFB at all. SS on the other hand always uses a lot of NFB.
Things like OT or no OT and different PS solutions matter a lot also.
People who regulate their B+ seem to get rid of a big chunk of "the tube sound", and end up with more transparency. My experience seems to favour no NFB at all, but this means only using very good tubes like the 4P1L and such.
I define transparency as the inability to ascertain whether a sound is reproduced or coming from my immediate surroundings. Some movies can be really annoying or creepy because you don't know whether somebody is knocking your wall or if it's the movie!
this creates question-do the "bad" transistor sound come from that big amount of fb?
heh,so much to pick!Output or other push-pull stages- predominantly third and fifth harmonic.
Single ended stages- predominantly second harmonic
Frequency response anomalies- predominantly due to power amp output impedance
Pick yer poison!
i think he had "the mythical tube sound, everybody has on his mind" , where that one does belong ?
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hpeter, in a way, yes.
But SS doesn't really have any HIFI linearity at all without any NFB.
Also big electrolytics in SS, small high quality film etc. caps in hollow state, OT, damping factor, all kinds of topology and component choise things.
The trick of course is to use every device for it's strengths, and use other devices to sidestep it's weaknesses. That is if you're looking for transparency, authenticity of reproduction.
But SS doesn't really have any HIFI linearity at all without any NFB.
Also big electrolytics in SS, small high quality film etc. caps in hollow state, OT, damping factor, all kinds of topology and component choise things.
The trick of course is to use every device for it's strengths, and use other devices to sidestep it's weaknesses. That is if you're looking for transparency, authenticity of reproduction.
subjectively speaking (lol) - I find that the preamp/input amp tubes make the largest different to the sound. For example, changing the EF86 or 6SN7 in my Eico amplifiers has a greater effect than the EL34s. Plugging in cheap Shuguangs over (old) Mullards does change the sound, but only minimally.
I would somewhat disagree with Mr. 96. If a stage is well designed with the goal of neutrality, you indeed won't hear anything that can be described as a "tube sound" or a "transistor sound." It will simply make a small signal larger. If a stage is to be well designed with the goal of an effects box, you have to start by tightly defining what that effect is (beyond something meaningless like "tube sound"), otherwise you'll be flailing around. Either way, once the goal is defined, the engineering can be quite straightforward.
You get the tube sound when you overdrive one or more tube stages into audible distortion.
If the amp is not over driven and the THD is below 1% (below audibility), then it should be transparent. You should not drive a stereo amp into distortion anyway.
That last statement falls apart when you consider how a tube amp versus a solid state amp couples to the variable impedance of a speaker.
Solid state amps deliver less power as the impedance of the speaker rises. Tube amps deliver more power as the impedance rises.
The net audible effect for a tube power amp tends to be slightly richer bass and brighter treble because these regions have higher impedances when compared to a solid state amp.
If the amp is not over driven and the THD is below 1% (below audibility), then it should be transparent. You should not drive a stereo amp into distortion anyway.
That last statement falls apart when you consider how a tube amp versus a solid state amp couples to the variable impedance of a speaker.
Solid state amps deliver less power as the impedance of the speaker rises. Tube amps deliver more power as the impedance rises.
The net audible effect for a tube power amp tends to be slightly richer bass and brighter treble because these regions have higher impedances when compared to a solid state amp.
Hi,Does the "tube sound" originate from the pre amp tubes, or the power amp tubes? Both?
I see quite a few transistor amps with a pre amp tube. Is there any point to this?
Can one achieve the "tube sound" from simply having a tube circuit in the pre amp stage?
Cheers
Interesting question.
Small output Triodes as 300B tend to define the final sound result if the circuit allow(minimalist circuit).
If the output circuit is complex and populated with many parts as McIntoch the final sound will be defined by the circuit.
In this brand amps the sound is the always the same, either with cheap tubes or quality expensive output tubes.
If the output tube is a big Triode as 211,805,GM70 the final sound may be setout by the driver tube.
My 2 cents, IMO.
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