Greetings all!
I looked through the list of forums, and couldn't find one where a discussion about overall system choices and design would fit. If there is one, please let me know.
Projects that start poorly, end poorly, so I want to invest some time and study into building a home HiFi system.
I'd like your feedback on the plans I'm working on, including sources, processing/crossovers, amplification, speaker types and enclosures. I'll eventually do separate posts in the proper forum for the details of each sub-component, though this build process is likely to take a couple years (and I dare not begin until my current "honey-do" list is completed).
Here's a diagram of my concept, which is still at the brainstorming/spitballing stage. I've broken it down into 4 parts:
Considerations:
1. Receiver/Crossover Choices
Most of my musical sources are digital, so I'm leaning toward a PC based "receiver" to take advantage of DSP without adding the noise of an initial analog to digital conversion. The outputs would come from a 5 channel (mono sub) or 6 channel (stereo sub) sound card to be tri-amped to the speakers. This would allow easy adjustment of the crossover points later as well.
The alternative to DSP I'm considering is to use active crossovers, like the ESP Project 09, xkitz.com XOVER-3 LR 3-Way Active Crossover, or SublimeAcoustic K231.
2. Crossover & Speaker Integration
I enjoy listening to full range speakers, though some of the music I enjoy needs a subwoofer. So, I think I want to build a F.A.S.T. setup, with an added tweeter to assist with the last couple airy octaves as well.
3. Amp Choices
I plan to build these, and am thinking either the Honeybadger amp or the ESP 101 project. For the subwoofer, perhaps the ESP project 68 300W subwoofer. So, 5 or 6 amps total, for the tri-amped setup.
On an earlier bi-amped (2.1) system I built with passive line level crossovers, the amp output to the full-range speakers didn't properly scale with the amp the the sub when the input level was changed. At different volumes from the source, I would have to adjust the individual volumes to the full-ranges and sub. I want to avoid this on this build. So, I'm doing some early planning on amp output, speaker impedance, and speaker sensitivity.
I would also consider replacing items 1, 2, and 3 with a receiver that could play digital sources, and that has on-board DSP with enough amp outputs to drive a tri-amped stereo speaker setup. I haven't found one, but I haven't spent days searching.
4. Speakers and Enclosures
I've spent many enjoyable evenings falling down the rabbit hole that is speaker enclosure design. I'm currently planning on a Bigger Is Better or a Metronome full-range F.A.S.T. setup.
Over about the last 10 years, I've built a few speaker enclosures, crossovers, amps (board level stuff mostly) & am no stranger to table saws and soldering irons.
Looking forward to you feedback,
jdubya
I looked through the list of forums, and couldn't find one where a discussion about overall system choices and design would fit. If there is one, please let me know.
Projects that start poorly, end poorly, so I want to invest some time and study into building a home HiFi system.
I'd like your feedback on the plans I'm working on, including sources, processing/crossovers, amplification, speaker types and enclosures. I'll eventually do separate posts in the proper forum for the details of each sub-component, though this build process is likely to take a couple years (and I dare not begin until my current "honey-do" list is completed).
Here's a diagram of my concept, which is still at the brainstorming/spitballing stage. I've broken it down into 4 parts:
Considerations:
1. Receiver/Crossover Choices
Most of my musical sources are digital, so I'm leaning toward a PC based "receiver" to take advantage of DSP without adding the noise of an initial analog to digital conversion. The outputs would come from a 5 channel (mono sub) or 6 channel (stereo sub) sound card to be tri-amped to the speakers. This would allow easy adjustment of the crossover points later as well.
The alternative to DSP I'm considering is to use active crossovers, like the ESP Project 09, xkitz.com XOVER-3 LR 3-Way Active Crossover, or SublimeAcoustic K231.
2. Crossover & Speaker Integration
I enjoy listening to full range speakers, though some of the music I enjoy needs a subwoofer. So, I think I want to build a F.A.S.T. setup, with an added tweeter to assist with the last couple airy octaves as well.
3. Amp Choices
I plan to build these, and am thinking either the Honeybadger amp or the ESP 101 project. For the subwoofer, perhaps the ESP project 68 300W subwoofer. So, 5 or 6 amps total, for the tri-amped setup.
On an earlier bi-amped (2.1) system I built with passive line level crossovers, the amp output to the full-range speakers didn't properly scale with the amp the the sub when the input level was changed. At different volumes from the source, I would have to adjust the individual volumes to the full-ranges and sub. I want to avoid this on this build. So, I'm doing some early planning on amp output, speaker impedance, and speaker sensitivity.
I would also consider replacing items 1, 2, and 3 with a receiver that could play digital sources, and that has on-board DSP with enough amp outputs to drive a tri-amped stereo speaker setup. I haven't found one, but I haven't spent days searching.
4. Speakers and Enclosures
I've spent many enjoyable evenings falling down the rabbit hole that is speaker enclosure design. I'm currently planning on a Bigger Is Better or a Metronome full-range F.A.S.T. setup.
Over about the last 10 years, I've built a few speaker enclosures, crossovers, amps (board level stuff mostly) & am no stranger to table saws and soldering irons.
Looking forward to you feedback,
jdubya
The only comment I'd make is be careful about railing yourself into a particular D/A converter. You must know how these elements all have their signature sound regardless of objective measurements - or there wouldnt be such a proliferation of product designs with various internal architectures.
Of course that consideration disturbs your choice of doing the DSP within the PC - and having 6 simultaneous outputs. I just read about the "JAB5" amp, which can be cascaded to 8 channels - each with it's own DSP xover filter. But even then, you'd have to like the sound of (I suspect) the ADAU1701's D/A converters. Since this chip is used all over the place, it's probably a safe bet. But still a one time, no going back bet on it sounding to your liking.
With line level analog Xovers you're free to swap out D/A's all your listening career long. That assumes they are faultless with all their passive components and op-amp choices.
The situation makes me wonder why nearly all amplifiers are flat 20-20k, versus deliberately building an amp for the best sound within a common, well known Xover range, such as 800 on down. With level, slope and cutoff controls, kinda like on a commercial sub. Just daisy chain the bass, mid and treble amp off your favorite line level DAC output and setup to taste / measurement.
Of course that consideration disturbs your choice of doing the DSP within the PC - and having 6 simultaneous outputs. I just read about the "JAB5" amp, which can be cascaded to 8 channels - each with it's own DSP xover filter. But even then, you'd have to like the sound of (I suspect) the ADAU1701's D/A converters. Since this chip is used all over the place, it's probably a safe bet. But still a one time, no going back bet on it sounding to your liking.
With line level analog Xovers you're free to swap out D/A's all your listening career long. That assumes they are faultless with all their passive components and op-amp choices.
The situation makes me wonder why nearly all amplifiers are flat 20-20k, versus deliberately building an amp for the best sound within a common, well known Xover range, such as 800 on down. With level, slope and cutoff controls, kinda like on a commercial sub. Just daisy chain the bass, mid and treble amp off your favorite line level DAC output and setup to taste / measurement.
jjasniew,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. To be honest, I'm hesitant about the DSP approach because there's a lot of DSP systems that I don't like the sound of - you can tell there's DSP going on. I've heard some I do like, but have no idea what chip set is used.
I'll do some homework and listening before I settle on the DSP option. The thought of a purely analog system appeals to me and was my original choice, until I realized that I might be able to do DSP without the initial A2D step.
Does performing DSP on a signal that was natively digital introduce it's own noise component, or is the DSP sound we sometimes hear (hiss when there's no audio, etc) due to the noise floor of the D2A conerter's quality. I had a DSP course back in my school days, but haven't worked with fundamentals in years.
jdubya
Thank you for your thoughtful response. To be honest, I'm hesitant about the DSP approach because there's a lot of DSP systems that I don't like the sound of - you can tell there's DSP going on. I've heard some I do like, but have no idea what chip set is used.
I'll do some homework and listening before I settle on the DSP option. The thought of a purely analog system appeals to me and was my original choice, until I realized that I might be able to do DSP without the initial A2D step.
Does performing DSP on a signal that was natively digital introduce it's own noise component, or is the DSP sound we sometimes hear (hiss when there's no audio, etc) due to the noise floor of the D2A conerter's quality. I had a DSP course back in my school days, but haven't worked with fundamentals in years.
jdubya
jdubya,
You mentioned that you like the sound of wide-band (aka full-range) drivers, and are planning to build a BiB or Metronome that (both quite large cabinets). According to your diagram these speakers will take care of the frequency range between 70 Hz - 4000 Hz.
Below 70 Hz you are planning to subwoofers tuned to 25". These subwoofers would have a large radiating area - 12", 15" or 18" and you are ok with deploying a pair of these according to your requirement.
Over 4000 Hz you are planning to use a compression driver in horn.
Your design choices indicate that you are looking to build a speaker system that has good dynamic range?
Are you trying to fill up a large space?
One concern I have that the modestly sized wideband driver is entrusted to cover a quite a significant amount of the frequency where lot of the "power" of the music resides, especially up to 500 Hz. Not sure if you will get the desired oomph from deploying a low excursion single wide band driver through from 70 Hz onwards, albeit in a large cabinet like the BiB.
You mentioned that you like the sound of wide-band (aka full-range) drivers, and are planning to build a BiB or Metronome that (both quite large cabinets). According to your diagram these speakers will take care of the frequency range between 70 Hz - 4000 Hz.
Below 70 Hz you are planning to subwoofers tuned to 25". These subwoofers would have a large radiating area - 12", 15" or 18" and you are ok with deploying a pair of these according to your requirement.
Over 4000 Hz you are planning to use a compression driver in horn.
Your design choices indicate that you are looking to build a speaker system that has good dynamic range?
Are you trying to fill up a large space?
One concern I have that the modestly sized wideband driver is entrusted to cover a quite a significant amount of the frequency where lot of the "power" of the music resides, especially up to 500 Hz. Not sure if you will get the desired oomph from deploying a low excursion single wide band driver through from 70 Hz onwards, albeit in a large cabinet like the BiB.
Thanks for replying zman01,
I am a novice when it comes to pairing speakers and enclosures to cover multiple octaves, so your feedback is appreciated. I would be glad to hear about any modifications/alternatives you would suggest.
I do want punch with this system. It's somewhat missing on the FR system I now have, and was the reason I was adding the subwoofer this time. Also, depending on the FR driver I select, I'm realizing that I may not need a super-tweeter. Though, again, the FR set I now have is a little soft in the last couple octaves. It's DIY but also inexpensive.
70Hz was chosen because I didn't want to cross-over in the human voice range, and it was low enough that the sub would only cover 2 octaves.
The room I'm in is not large. 14' wide with 8' ceilings. I'm looking for a fast, clean, open sound (like everyone else).
I am a novice when it comes to pairing speakers and enclosures to cover multiple octaves, so your feedback is appreciated. I would be glad to hear about any modifications/alternatives you would suggest.
I do want punch with this system. It's somewhat missing on the FR system I now have, and was the reason I was adding the subwoofer this time. Also, depending on the FR driver I select, I'm realizing that I may not need a super-tweeter. Though, again, the FR set I now have is a little soft in the last couple octaves. It's DIY but also inexpensive.
70Hz was chosen because I didn't want to cross-over in the human voice range, and it was low enough that the sub would only cover 2 octaves.
The room I'm in is not large. 14' wide with 8' ceilings. I'm looking for a fast, clean, open sound (like everyone else).
jdubya,
Speakers are all about compromises. One of the forum members who has contributed many designs to the community likes to use the expression "you pick your poison". 🙂
Having no cross-over within the "voice frequency" band (300 Hz - 3000 Hz) has it's benefits, but some compromises might occur also. In my experience it is relatively easier to enjoy very good imaging and a deeper 3D sound stage with a single wide-band speaker (in a well designed cabinet) being driven by a single-ended tube amplifier; with a 2 way / multi-way speaker system, this is more difficult to achieve.
On the other hand, with a multi-way speaker, it is relatively easier to get more slam and end extension as it is using dedicated mid-bass/ woofers; for bass output there is a saying "there is no replacement for displacement"... 🙂 Greater high frequency extension is possible from a high quality tweeter. These speakers are often lower in sensitivity, requiring higher power amps, often solid state. These amps have higher output power and far better measurements, but lack the euphonic presentation (often termed as "musical") that many single-ended tube amps are associated with. So tradeoffs, tradeoffs....
Those who are looking for the full-range sound coupled with decent bass performance can look into "FAST" (Full-range Assisted with woofer) or WAW (Woofer Assisted Wide-band) speakers; these are typically wide-band drivers crossed anywhere from 250Hz to 1000 Hz to the mid-bass drivers / woofers that carry the frequencies below the XO point. For starters, 3 such systems come to mind:
- The Halcyons by Curt Campbell
- The RS225 FAST TL by xrk971
- Alpair 7.3/Alpair 12PW WAW by Planet10
Again, these will have their plusses and minuses vs traditional 2 way / multiway systems. Crossovers have been developed for the speakers by the designers, and you should be able to keep the source and amplification chain relatively simple.
My musical preference is towards rock, metal, and electronic genres, and my preferences is nowadays towards 2 / way multiway systems.
Speakers are all about compromises. One of the forum members who has contributed many designs to the community likes to use the expression "you pick your poison". 🙂
Having no cross-over within the "voice frequency" band (300 Hz - 3000 Hz) has it's benefits, but some compromises might occur also. In my experience it is relatively easier to enjoy very good imaging and a deeper 3D sound stage with a single wide-band speaker (in a well designed cabinet) being driven by a single-ended tube amplifier; with a 2 way / multi-way speaker system, this is more difficult to achieve.
On the other hand, with a multi-way speaker, it is relatively easier to get more slam and end extension as it is using dedicated mid-bass/ woofers; for bass output there is a saying "there is no replacement for displacement"... 🙂 Greater high frequency extension is possible from a high quality tweeter. These speakers are often lower in sensitivity, requiring higher power amps, often solid state. These amps have higher output power and far better measurements, but lack the euphonic presentation (often termed as "musical") that many single-ended tube amps are associated with. So tradeoffs, tradeoffs....
Those who are looking for the full-range sound coupled with decent bass performance can look into "FAST" (Full-range Assisted with woofer) or WAW (Woofer Assisted Wide-band) speakers; these are typically wide-band drivers crossed anywhere from 250Hz to 1000 Hz to the mid-bass drivers / woofers that carry the frequencies below the XO point. For starters, 3 such systems come to mind:
- The Halcyons by Curt Campbell
- The RS225 FAST TL by xrk971
- Alpair 7.3/Alpair 12PW WAW by Planet10
Again, these will have their plusses and minuses vs traditional 2 way / multiway systems. Crossovers have been developed for the speakers by the designers, and you should be able to keep the source and amplification chain relatively simple.
My musical preference is towards rock, metal, and electronic genres, and my preferences is nowadays towards 2 / way multiway systems.
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