Well, first a little storytime:
There is a thread on htquide about restoring crossover for magnat all ribbon 12:
https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum/mission-possible-diy/18789-restoring-magnat-all-ribbon-12
I wrote that 19 years ago, i was 20 and i didn’t know anything about building speakers..
Also that thread is a lie, i will tell you the truth:
--- I broke those speakers. ---
I lied that my friend broke them, but it was me. I was too ashamed to tell the truth by that time, but here is what happened:
-I was throwing a big party on my parent house since they were away. I usually didn’t throw parties there, but this was bit different. By the nighttime i was already very drunk, and we had moved those big speaker to livingroom.
I wanted bass.
We already had good bass, great bass from those two 12 inches, but i want more. I wanted insane bass, i wanted to impress some girls so i picked up subwoofer from downstair and carried it upstairs.
Since it was ht-sub, there was no way to connect it to my pass labs amplifier, but i didn’t let it stop me.
To this day i cannot remember what kind of idea i had, but i cut some cheap speaker wire and did some insane connection to try to make it work.
My magnats were fried in seconds.. There were sparks from connections and smoke, i cut the power but it was too late, here was the crossover:
Anyway, i tried to fix it but i guess the midwoofer and tweeter were fried, or i couldn’t make proper connections since it didn’t sound very good with new crossover ,and i gave it to my friend years later for subwoofer use and forget about it.
Yesterday, my friend called me:
He didn’t need my magnats for his studio space anymore, and were throwing them to landfill if i didn’t need them anymore, so i said yes.
After 19 years they are back to home, and this time i have parts & measurement gear & knowledge to actually rebuild it.
I will make this fast as i can, usually my project take longer as i mull and try different things, but this time i have new midwoofer + tweeter ready, and box. is already built..
Damn..
There is a thread on htquide about restoring crossover for magnat all ribbon 12:
https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum/mission-possible-diy/18789-restoring-magnat-all-ribbon-12
I wrote that 19 years ago, i was 20 and i didn’t know anything about building speakers..
Also that thread is a lie, i will tell you the truth:
--- I broke those speakers. ---
I lied that my friend broke them, but it was me. I was too ashamed to tell the truth by that time, but here is what happened:
-I was throwing a big party on my parent house since they were away. I usually didn’t throw parties there, but this was bit different. By the nighttime i was already very drunk, and we had moved those big speaker to livingroom.
I wanted bass.
We already had good bass, great bass from those two 12 inches, but i want more. I wanted insane bass, i wanted to impress some girls so i picked up subwoofer from downstair and carried it upstairs.
Since it was ht-sub, there was no way to connect it to my pass labs amplifier, but i didn’t let it stop me.
To this day i cannot remember what kind of idea i had, but i cut some cheap speaker wire and did some insane connection to try to make it work.
My magnats were fried in seconds.. There were sparks from connections and smoke, i cut the power but it was too late, here was the crossover:
Anyway, i tried to fix it but i guess the midwoofer and tweeter were fried, or i couldn’t make proper connections since it didn’t sound very good with new crossover ,and i gave it to my friend years later for subwoofer use and forget about it.
Yesterday, my friend called me:
He didn’t need my magnats for his studio space anymore, and were throwing them to landfill if i didn’t need them anymore, so i said yes.
After 19 years they are back to home, and this time i have parts & measurement gear & knowledge to actually rebuild it.
I will make this fast as i can, usually my project take longer as i mull and try different things, but this time i have new midwoofer + tweeter ready, and box. is already built..
Damn..
Found some information and picture of original crossover.
I really doubt about that sensitivity, it was ok but little bass light with Threshold t200 (100w class A).
Stereoplay did review it with: Sehr Gut and Magnat cum laude ( what a wordplay..)
This really was a highend speaker, even if it does not look like it..
" MAGNAT All Ribbon 12
3-way speaker, 3 HP bass-reflex load.
30 cm bass speaker; 13.3 cm midrange, 25 mm dome tweeter
Dimensions: 67.7 cm * 43.2 cm * 41 cm
Sensitivity : 92.5 dB / m / W
Impedance 6 Ohms
Power handling: 250 W (500 w peak)
Weight : 40kg
Origin: Germany "
I really doubt about that sensitivity, it was ok but little bass light with Threshold t200 (100w class A).
Stereoplay did review it with: Sehr Gut and Magnat cum laude ( what a wordplay..)
This really was a highend speaker, even if it does not look like it..
" MAGNAT All Ribbon 12
3-way speaker, 3 HP bass-reflex load.
30 cm bass speaker; 13.3 cm midrange, 25 mm dome tweeter
Dimensions: 67.7 cm * 43.2 cm * 41 cm
Sensitivity : 92.5 dB / m / W
Impedance 6 Ohms
Power handling: 250 W (500 w peak)
Weight : 40kg
Origin: Germany "
Attachments
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That is the best part: There is no ribbon!
I don't know enough german to know what was the idea behind whole range of "All ribbon" speakers, but from what i have learned over the net it has something to do with voice coil??:
LISTENING
" The MAGNAT all ribbon 12 is a classic shaped speaker (not a column) which is already quite large. It uses the system of flat wire coils wound on edge ("All Ribbon") for better filling of the air gap. This is a technique developed in the 70s which has not aged a bit. The HPs are of a very well made.
You should preferably use stands around fifty centimeters high to obtain the best sound balance.
It is a very lively speaker, full of “peach”. It combines dynamics, definition, intelligibility and high performance. in power. The top of the spectrum is a little accentuated but the bass is solid. "
I don't know enough german to know what was the idea behind whole range of "All ribbon" speakers, but from what i have learned over the net it has something to do with voice coil??:
LISTENING
" The MAGNAT all ribbon 12 is a classic shaped speaker (not a column) which is already quite large. It uses the system of flat wire coils wound on edge ("All Ribbon") for better filling of the air gap. This is a technique developed in the 70s which has not aged a bit. The HPs are of a very well made.
You should preferably use stands around fifty centimeters high to obtain the best sound balance.
It is a very lively speaker, full of “peach”. It combines dynamics, definition, intelligibility and high performance. in power. The top of the spectrum is a little accentuated but the bass is solid. "
The 'ribbon' on the original All Ribbon speakers referred to the ribbon-shaped voice coil wire indeed. Those were from the days of the infamous Magnat Plasma high frequency units (heard that one once, I was impressed then). I guess you could compare it to the hexatech coils from Dynaudio some years after.
Fact is those mids and tweeters were pretty good then.
Fact is those mids and tweeters were pretty good then.
If you read about the History of HECO, Canton, Braun, Grundig, Magnat, Visonic, Summit and any other name from the German loudspeaker market starting around 1960, you will learn that basically a small group of people was omnipresent. The industry liked this inbreed, as it created huge profit. This explains why all these speaker have something in common, what I always felt to be an arbitrarily interchangeably, boring sound that has been described as "neutral" and "objective" until today. Of course some had more bass, some less distortion or clearer highs than others, depending on price and size. Anyway, all of them refused to allow fun, life and spontanity in music reproduction. Opening them up showed only cheapest components.
If you have a look at the extremely cheap chassis used in horrendously overpriced speakers of this time, you will understand why this made huge money.
Sure, the well known, famous German designers of that time all knew how to build better speaker, but as long as the German (and European, even overseas) customer bought these ridiculous expensive, junk filled boxes, so why change anything?
For me, beginning in the seventies, HIFI and high end separated. HIFI was sold at any usual location, like radio shops and departement stores to "solid" customers with no clue of real HIFI. The good stuff was hidden in magic locations, where the illuminated listeners meet, which later where called high end studios. I was happy to have one just around the corner, in Hamburg, where some cool and nice guy's sold the best from the world market, to usually incredible rich customers. When the shop was empty, they had no problem to show their newest and best stuff to interested and respectfull kids like me.
Please, if you like vintage gear, have a good look at what you really get. Even restoring such speakers to as new condition, will only give limited sound quality. Magnat was a brand created to collect the younger customers money, inside they where quite similar to others, just a little bit more agressive sounding. Not even near a good sound reproduction.
The best you can do is to put a good, compareable DIYS kit inside the old cabinet and conserve the outside look.
Just the same is true for the power amplifier stages of most vintage gear of that time. They match the boring HECO, Braun etc. sound of these pre CD age.
PS don't get me wrong, I love vintage gear! Just not the ugly sound some of it produces. Converting the inside to todays quality, while keeping the old look is great fun!
If you have a look at the extremely cheap chassis used in horrendously overpriced speakers of this time, you will understand why this made huge money.
Sure, the well known, famous German designers of that time all knew how to build better speaker, but as long as the German (and European, even overseas) customer bought these ridiculous expensive, junk filled boxes, so why change anything?
For me, beginning in the seventies, HIFI and high end separated. HIFI was sold at any usual location, like radio shops and departement stores to "solid" customers with no clue of real HIFI. The good stuff was hidden in magic locations, where the illuminated listeners meet, which later where called high end studios. I was happy to have one just around the corner, in Hamburg, where some cool and nice guy's sold the best from the world market, to usually incredible rich customers. When the shop was empty, they had no problem to show their newest and best stuff to interested and respectfull kids like me.
Please, if you like vintage gear, have a good look at what you really get. Even restoring such speakers to as new condition, will only give limited sound quality. Magnat was a brand created to collect the younger customers money, inside they where quite similar to others, just a little bit more agressive sounding. Not even near a good sound reproduction.
The best you can do is to put a good, compareable DIYS kit inside the old cabinet and conserve the outside look.
Just the same is true for the power amplifier stages of most vintage gear of that time. They match the boring HECO, Braun etc. sound of these pre CD age.
PS don't get me wrong, I love vintage gear! Just not the ugly sound some of it produces. Converting the inside to todays quality, while keeping the old look is great fun!
"Please, if you like vintage gear, have a good look at what you really get. Even restoring such speakers to as new condition, will only give limited sound quality. Magnat was a brand created to collect the younger customers money, inside they where quite similar to others, just a little bit more agressive sounding. Not even near a good sound reproduction."
Hi Turbowatch2. I think the truth here is.. complicated, let me explain.
We will probably now never get to know whole truth since how good is your audio memory after 19 years? Also if this was your first "good" speaker, how would you know, really know?
I will test them today active with some music, but since the mid/tweeter might be damaged, can i know even after today?
I can only tell you what i know: When i bought this speaker, it was part of my first serious high end system, i was still living with my parents in a house with very good acoustics. I don't know if you have experienced this, but put a cheaper but ok speaker in room with really good acoustic (wooden house), and it will spank the good highend speaker in worse acoustic (like concrete apartment).
I didn't know anything about anything, so i just listened, but i have been playing classical guitar since 6 years old, so my ears were attuned to certain level of harmonics and sound quality. I made basically every highend dealer angry in town, because i believed nothing what they said, told them pointblank that their gear sounded bad no matter the price, repeat and rinse until i got gear that i said "this is fine" ( I think im high functioning autistic, i didn't know that by this time, always been honest to fault..)
In the end of my listening i got very nice highend "supporting system" for the speakers: Threshold t200 power (100w class A), sphinx project mk2 pre, burrbrown dac (maybe mufi), mccormack sst-1 cd transport, solid silver cable between pre-power and rest cables taralabs.
I don't think anyone really took these speakers too seriously because how they looked, and they were "magnat" but i listened and did, and got them very good supporting cast. In that room with that gear i got sound that hooked me into hifi for the rest of my life..
My next speaker after they got destroyed was Tannoy TD10 (look it up), only speaker that i felt was about same level as my magnat. That speaker got the highest ever reviewed score on old Finnish HIFILEHTI magazine that used blind tests as part of their evaluation, it was also hated by importers for this reason..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember by that time going into my first ever hifi exhibition in finland with my friend, i was expecting so much and was very excited. It was held in SAS hotel that is wide rooms, but concrete building.
I was totally and completely. disappointed, nothing at show made sound quality that was on the same level as my magnat at home, my friend shared my opinion. I stopped going into them for 10+ years because of this! (this was the first hint i had, how much room acoustics matter..)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway as. i final take, one more story:
-I had my 40's birthday party last summer by this same house i lived by that time, and i had built Troels Faital 3wc-10 with Level 1+ crossovers (alumen z + duelund pure copper).
When i was putting the speakers up for party, my friend of over 20+ years came to help my setting everything up. He listened Faitals for about 20
seconds and said "These are not as good as magnat", and. i had to agree, they were much worse..
So, what is the final truth? We will probably never know. I think they did something right with this model, since i have listened some other magnat speakers after this and they were not as good as this model..
but i will test them today (in active) against serious highend drivers:
-Morel EM1308, AT 18h52, TW29TXN-B..
Will write here how it will go, i think these drivers are definitely better than those magnat drivers, but how much?
Hi Turbowatch2. I think the truth here is.. complicated, let me explain.
We will probably now never get to know whole truth since how good is your audio memory after 19 years? Also if this was your first "good" speaker, how would you know, really know?
I will test them today active with some music, but since the mid/tweeter might be damaged, can i know even after today?
I can only tell you what i know: When i bought this speaker, it was part of my first serious high end system, i was still living with my parents in a house with very good acoustics. I don't know if you have experienced this, but put a cheaper but ok speaker in room with really good acoustic (wooden house), and it will spank the good highend speaker in worse acoustic (like concrete apartment).
I didn't know anything about anything, so i just listened, but i have been playing classical guitar since 6 years old, so my ears were attuned to certain level of harmonics and sound quality. I made basically every highend dealer angry in town, because i believed nothing what they said, told them pointblank that their gear sounded bad no matter the price, repeat and rinse until i got gear that i said "this is fine" ( I think im high functioning autistic, i didn't know that by this time, always been honest to fault..)
In the end of my listening i got very nice highend "supporting system" for the speakers: Threshold t200 power (100w class A), sphinx project mk2 pre, burrbrown dac (maybe mufi), mccormack sst-1 cd transport, solid silver cable between pre-power and rest cables taralabs.
I don't think anyone really took these speakers too seriously because how they looked, and they were "magnat" but i listened and did, and got them very good supporting cast. In that room with that gear i got sound that hooked me into hifi for the rest of my life..
My next speaker after they got destroyed was Tannoy TD10 (look it up), only speaker that i felt was about same level as my magnat. That speaker got the highest ever reviewed score on old Finnish HIFILEHTI magazine that used blind tests as part of their evaluation, it was also hated by importers for this reason..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember by that time going into my first ever hifi exhibition in finland with my friend, i was expecting so much and was very excited. It was held in SAS hotel that is wide rooms, but concrete building.
I was totally and completely. disappointed, nothing at show made sound quality that was on the same level as my magnat at home, my friend shared my opinion. I stopped going into them for 10+ years because of this! (this was the first hint i had, how much room acoustics matter..)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway as. i final take, one more story:
-I had my 40's birthday party last summer by this same house i lived by that time, and i had built Troels Faital 3wc-10 with Level 1+ crossovers (alumen z + duelund pure copper).
When i was putting the speakers up for party, my friend of over 20+ years came to help my setting everything up. He listened Faitals for about 20
seconds and said "These are not as good as magnat", and. i had to agree, they were much worse..
So, what is the final truth? We will probably never know. I think they did something right with this model, since i have listened some other magnat speakers after this and they were not as good as this model..
but i will test them today (in active) against serious highend drivers:
-Morel EM1308, AT 18h52, TW29TXN-B..
Will write here how it will go, i think these drivers are definitely better than those magnat drivers, but how much?
Actually, i was. also thinking in this case doing the makeover because i will be using them and do not like big black boxes anymore.. Maybe i should have written "remaking" instead of rebuilding..
But that depends the condition of drivers and bass driver ( should be fine, but lets test..)
NS2000 style:
But that depends the condition of drivers and bass driver ( should be fine, but lets test..)
NS2000 style:
@Turbowatch2
Hugely overpriced speakers still have ridiculously cheap drivers today. Even Ellipticors become cheap when buying 500+ units.
The simple truth is that, however focused we here are on expensive drivers and boutique crossover components, there hardly is a serious correlation between those and real good speaker systems. Just as the German brands showed us then and serious brands show us nowadays.
Furthermore, of course people wanted to earn money then. But don’t disqualify those brands for that. The high end brands of those days didn’t really deliver on their claims, just like today’s brands don’t.
Hugely overpriced speakers still have ridiculously cheap drivers today. Even Ellipticors become cheap when buying 500+ units.
The simple truth is that, however focused we here are on expensive drivers and boutique crossover components, there hardly is a serious correlation between those and real good speaker systems. Just as the German brands showed us then and serious brands show us nowadays.
Furthermore, of course people wanted to earn money then. But don’t disqualify those brands for that. The high end brands of those days didn’t really deliver on their claims, just like today’s brands don’t.
I also used to be still only after "premium" drivers, well i still am...
but these days i actually know that basic drivers are very good today, if you don't believe me, go and look Hifijim post about difference in sound quality between textreme and cheaper drivers:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/compact-low-cost-active-3-way-speaker.402812/page-30#post-7562464:~:text=Add bookmark-,#586,-For the past
Anyway, from my friend that works designer for speaker manufacturer, if you order 500-1000 drivers that cost 300e (from scanspeak/sbacoustic), you can get them for 33% what retail pays from them.. or cheaper..
but these days i actually know that basic drivers are very good today, if you don't believe me, go and look Hifijim post about difference in sound quality between textreme and cheaper drivers:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/compact-low-cost-active-3-way-speaker.402812/page-30#post-7562464:~:text=Add bookmark-,#586,-For the past
Anyway, from my friend that works designer for speaker manufacturer, if you order 500-1000 drivers that cost 300e (from scanspeak/sbacoustic), you can get them for 33% what retail pays from them.. or cheaper..
Well a little progress, lets look at the drivers:
Bass driver:
-Seems fine, no damage that i can see, good build quality.
Middriver:
-No damage i can see, heavy for a 13cm unit!
Tweeter:
-Front panel looks like aluminium, but seem to be plastic. Dome is ceramic. Ok clean build quality.
-No damage from outside, next listening & measurement:
Bass driver:
-Seems fine, no damage that i can see, good build quality.
Middriver:
-No damage i can see, heavy for a 13cm unit!
Tweeter:
-Front panel looks like aluminium, but seem to be plastic. Dome is ceramic. Ok clean build quality.
-No damage from outside, next listening & measurement:
Listening Bass driver:
-It works!
I made crossover with active 3rd 60hz, basically to compare it with Troels Discovery 861, that uses 22W/8534G00 Discover 8" woofer.
I listened without other drivers, only comparing it to bass VS bass, so not much music over 150hz..
I listened Opeth ghost of perdition to see how it plays doublebass, and fast sharp drumkicks.
Seems ok, more powerful than 8534 but not as sharp.
Could it need so footers? I have built complicated isolation stand under 861, so lets add something under magnat too..
Here it is with heavy aluminium&rubber footers.
Much better, now the tighthness is same with 8534, but plays louder and with more authority.. Promising.. Also tested it out with higher crossover to see does it sound bad with higher crossover, it did not..
Troels Discovery 861:
-It works!
I made crossover with active 3rd 60hz, basically to compare it with Troels Discovery 861, that uses 22W/8534G00 Discover 8" woofer.
I listened without other drivers, only comparing it to bass VS bass, so not much music over 150hz..
I listened Opeth ghost of perdition to see how it plays doublebass, and fast sharp drumkicks.
Seems ok, more powerful than 8534 but not as sharp.
Could it need so footers? I have built complicated isolation stand under 861, so lets add something under magnat too..
Here it is with heavy aluminium&rubber footers.
Much better, now the tighthness is same with 8534, but plays louder and with more authority.. Promising.. Also tested it out with higher crossover to see does it sound bad with higher crossover, it did not..
Troels Discovery 861:
Those drivers look quite OK to me. The tweeter resembles the Visaton KE25SC. Glad parts seem to be working.
These you got are some of the newer Magnat from the most expensive, image building line. They do not match the time of speaker building I wrote about. The first MAGNAT (which was one of the later sub brands of HECO) looked more technical for younger buyers, but sounded just as average German "Taunus Sound" and flat as any other brand from this origin. Please also take into account that all these brands later changed owners, often many times, I only refer to their great time when they dominated the domestic market.
Yours is from an age when most speaker manufacturers had a review winning top line and then multiple low fidelity, money making mass products. Even brands like JBL build top class speaker, that soon were followed by a Mk2 version, offered at 60% or more discount. This with extreme reduced quality components and nothing left of the reward winning sound. Blame Harman if you want... You often can tell by just looking at the weigh difference that the actual offering is not the same speaker as the hyped winner.
If you talk of cheap components, you may refer to "reasonable quality". Even stamped steel chassis can be very good in sound and function. Have a close look at this private page, there you can see what I call "cheap" and what you will find inside most of these old German speakers. Don't expect any aluminum chassis! All these brands had their starting point at HECO- Henel. "Summit" is just an example of such a spin off brand of that time and the components used. I bet you will be shocked! Remember, such speakers did cost a monthly salary of an average worker!
https://summit-museum.de.tl/
By the way, I know a little about high quality OEM prices and discounts, compared to DIYS prices, but there are much more chassis that don't even cost a fraction of these and are installed in quite pricey loudspeakers.
Even if a listening experience is decades old, if you once adjusted your listening to real good reproduction, you have stored what a good speaker can and should do and can identify in seconds what sounds just low fi bad.
In the time of Braun, Grundig etc. I listened mainly to JBL, Altec and many British speakers, which simply blew that German consumer stuff away. Not the BBC mini monitor class that is so legendary today, but "real" full size speaker, Celestion, Leak, Goodmans, Tannoy, TDL, Kef and other serious brands. Of course, these were expensive, but in price compareable to Braun and Canton for example.
A friend of mine made a living with professional sound equipment for night clubs and discothekes. He was mostly hired for the second installation, as the first one usually was done by the owner or "a good friend who knew" and didn't work out well. There I learned the difference between cheap, usable and expensive. Even as this was a quite different sound experience!
For me there are different categories of HIFI speaker. Those that disqualify after a few seconds of listening, like most BOSE sound systems and then speaker that can be objectively taken serious and you can discuss. Which one from the second category are better or worse, to some extend may be a matter of taste.
For example I can find small speaker that reproduce their relevant range much better than a much larger one. If you are just fixated on bass "boom boom" you may automatically prefer the larger one. As the majority of customers does, which usually doesn't sell the best speaker in an audition.
Today most people I know are impressed by sound effects only and are unable to concentrate on the real quality of a reproduction. They want an acoustical roller coaster that impresses and shakes them short time, not some life like reproduction you can listen to for hours. Home cinema has made that even worse.
PS I still have a pair of first hand Braun 3-way SM 1003 from 1981 with a 21cm woofer. They are the black studio monitor version. Original except for the electrolytics. They are not bad, they don't do anything wrong and sound quite well with a modern high quality amp. They just lack the fun in the music. With the matching Braun receiver they are just boring. When new they where concidered a fantastic speaker at 1700 DM a pair. Convert that into todays money!
Yours is from an age when most speaker manufacturers had a review winning top line and then multiple low fidelity, money making mass products. Even brands like JBL build top class speaker, that soon were followed by a Mk2 version, offered at 60% or more discount. This with extreme reduced quality components and nothing left of the reward winning sound. Blame Harman if you want... You often can tell by just looking at the weigh difference that the actual offering is not the same speaker as the hyped winner.
If you talk of cheap components, you may refer to "reasonable quality". Even stamped steel chassis can be very good in sound and function. Have a close look at this private page, there you can see what I call "cheap" and what you will find inside most of these old German speakers. Don't expect any aluminum chassis! All these brands had their starting point at HECO- Henel. "Summit" is just an example of such a spin off brand of that time and the components used. I bet you will be shocked! Remember, such speakers did cost a monthly salary of an average worker!
https://summit-museum.de.tl/
By the way, I know a little about high quality OEM prices and discounts, compared to DIYS prices, but there are much more chassis that don't even cost a fraction of these and are installed in quite pricey loudspeakers.
Even if a listening experience is decades old, if you once adjusted your listening to real good reproduction, you have stored what a good speaker can and should do and can identify in seconds what sounds just low fi bad.
In the time of Braun, Grundig etc. I listened mainly to JBL, Altec and many British speakers, which simply blew that German consumer stuff away. Not the BBC mini monitor class that is so legendary today, but "real" full size speaker, Celestion, Leak, Goodmans, Tannoy, TDL, Kef and other serious brands. Of course, these were expensive, but in price compareable to Braun and Canton for example.
A friend of mine made a living with professional sound equipment for night clubs and discothekes. He was mostly hired for the second installation, as the first one usually was done by the owner or "a good friend who knew" and didn't work out well. There I learned the difference between cheap, usable and expensive. Even as this was a quite different sound experience!
For me there are different categories of HIFI speaker. Those that disqualify after a few seconds of listening, like most BOSE sound systems and then speaker that can be objectively taken serious and you can discuss. Which one from the second category are better or worse, to some extend may be a matter of taste.
For example I can find small speaker that reproduce their relevant range much better than a much larger one. If you are just fixated on bass "boom boom" you may automatically prefer the larger one. As the majority of customers does, which usually doesn't sell the best speaker in an audition.
Today most people I know are impressed by sound effects only and are unable to concentrate on the real quality of a reproduction. They want an acoustical roller coaster that impresses and shakes them short time, not some life like reproduction you can listen to for hours. Home cinema has made that even worse.
PS I still have a pair of first hand Braun 3-way SM 1003 from 1981 with a 21cm woofer. They are the black studio monitor version. Original except for the electrolytics. They are not bad, they don't do anything wrong and sound quite well with a modern high quality amp. They just lack the fun in the music. With the matching Braun receiver they are just boring. When new they where concidered a fantastic speaker at 1700 DM a pair. Convert that into todays money!
--------- I think i will need help with this one, the plot thickens!!! ---------
-Well, i tested the midwoofers (they are fine) and this definitely is throwing wrench on my straight and narrow plans..
I did first test on the magnat baffle using active:
bass lowpass 700 LR4
Mid lowpass 700 LR2 / Highpass 3500 LR2
It works, sound smooth and fine. But how does it test against modern highend middome?
Comparison test:
Same crosspoints for em1308 dome with AT 18h52 woofer on the left side.
Rough 1-speaker (channels put into mono) comparison test on different music, quitar, synth, etc..
Morel has as a midrange on same frequency:
-More Air
-More detail
-Tone is same, smooth
-It is "open" sounding, where as magnat mid in is "boxy" sounding in comparison, like muzzled over..
How much is the cabinet reason for this? Or mostly lack of it with morel?
Lets test it again.
I built small box for magnat mid, and put morel dome in magnat box, let's repeat the test:
Now the parts have changed, in this new configuration:
-Now magnat midrange sounds open and airy (than before in cabinet)
-it is now littlebit more open than morel dome
-littlebit more detailed than morel
In magnat cabinet, morel sounds now boxy, closed in, less airy and less detailed, muzzled.
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I have been reading that old "classic" 3way configuration might not be so good anymore (Big sharp edged box), now that we have different ways to build and test cabinets..
Im actually starting to believe it based on this test..
Right now im putting building this further on hold, until i have more answers what kind of box would be best for these parts..
Would changing mid and tweeter configuration to similar offset like in ns 1000 help??
My brother has ns1000 upstairs (im building this on our workspace), i might need to convince him next week to loan it for me for a day top test it out..
I think i will ask more opinions (about different cabinet choises) and test a bit more. Maybe if edges are rounded, mid/tweeter offset from middle and bass does not have that "magnat" edge but is flush mounted?
Tests continue, next week yamaha ns 1000 to rescue..
-Well, i tested the midwoofers (they are fine) and this definitely is throwing wrench on my straight and narrow plans..
I did first test on the magnat baffle using active:
bass lowpass 700 LR4
Mid lowpass 700 LR2 / Highpass 3500 LR2
It works, sound smooth and fine. But how does it test against modern highend middome?
Comparison test:
Same crosspoints for em1308 dome with AT 18h52 woofer on the left side.
Rough 1-speaker (channels put into mono) comparison test on different music, quitar, synth, etc..
Morel has as a midrange on same frequency:
-More Air
-More detail
-Tone is same, smooth
-It is "open" sounding, where as magnat mid in is "boxy" sounding in comparison, like muzzled over..
How much is the cabinet reason for this? Or mostly lack of it with morel?
Lets test it again.
I built small box for magnat mid, and put morel dome in magnat box, let's repeat the test:
Now the parts have changed, in this new configuration:
-Now magnat midrange sounds open and airy (than before in cabinet)
-it is now littlebit more open than morel dome
-littlebit more detailed than morel
In magnat cabinet, morel sounds now boxy, closed in, less airy and less detailed, muzzled.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been reading that old "classic" 3way configuration might not be so good anymore (Big sharp edged box), now that we have different ways to build and test cabinets..
Im actually starting to believe it based on this test..
Right now im putting building this further on hold, until i have more answers what kind of box would be best for these parts..
Would changing mid and tweeter configuration to similar offset like in ns 1000 help??
My brother has ns1000 upstairs (im building this on our workspace), i might need to convince him next week to loan it for me for a day top test it out..
I think i will ask more opinions (about different cabinet choises) and test a bit more. Maybe if edges are rounded, mid/tweeter offset from middle and bass does not have that "magnat" edge but is flush mounted?
Tests continue, next week yamaha ns 1000 to rescue..
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Also, i need to order DSP that has 6 channel capacity, my humbly 2x4 minidsp is hitting it limits here..
Also tested out if the 1cm edges that go over the front baffle might be partly reason for lower performance.
Made two guides that overlap the edges. It actually helped a lot, and testing it out against same dome on the top, it does not give up too much performance now.. It seems the side were mostly reason for lower performance.
And one more test where the dome and cone midrange are the same height:
Now the magnat midrange really shows it real colours, it actually is a very good driver.. Almost same air & details as morel, but bit sweeter tone. I actually forgot to test things few times and just listened.. That IS a good sign.
Next week testing against ns 1000 to see, can traditional 3way cabinet be still good..
Made two guides that overlap the edges. It actually helped a lot, and testing it out against same dome on the top, it does not give up too much performance now.. It seems the side were mostly reason for lower performance.
And one more test where the dome and cone midrange are the same height:
Now the magnat midrange really shows it real colours, it actually is a very good driver.. Almost same air & details as morel, but bit sweeter tone. I actually forgot to test things few times and just listened.. That IS a good sign.
Next week testing against ns 1000 to see, can traditional 3way cabinet be still good..