Telephone cable speaker wire

leroy

Member
2001-10-31 10:52 pm
I have a bad experience with multiple stranded cable as speaker cable. The inductance may be low but the capacitance increases enormously. That leads to loss of detail in the high frequencies. It also might damage the amplifier due to parasitic oscillations.
 
Very good choice, Eric!

using something similiar: a twisted pair of Tefcel-insulated copper wire which is NOT tinned or silvered out the outside, pure copper only.
Sounds gorgeous.

From own experiments, i have abandoned multistranded wires, be it for speakers or interconnects and i use wires as thin as possible.

Inspired by Allen Wright's cable cookbook, i use foil/ribbon conductors if i want to maintain both cross-section ultrathin in atleast one direction and required cross-sectional area for low resistance.

I tried this out: 0.1mm thin EMC-shielding copper foil (i insulate it with PP adhesive tape) vastly outperforms the telephone wire if the system's resolution level is high enough. The copper foil is thin, has about 1mm² CSA. If you care about µphonics, choose the self-adhesive variant used for quick-building prototype PCBs and glue them to the floor :) or inside the speaker housing.
 
Home made cables

You guys are pulling our legs. No one would go to the trouble to make his own cable when he could spend thousands of dollars for someone elses cable based on some wild theory of the month.

H.H.
 

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I don't understand this....

Would someone please clarify???

Until reading this thread, I thought that the stranded approach was a good one. Hence, I was planning on using several runs of CAT 6 for my speaker cables (teflon insulated, very fine strands).

Is this not a good idea? Please explain....

I had also looked at the telephone cable concept a while back but decided to go the CAT 6 route because it would give me increased surface area....

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Steve
 
Re: I don't understand this....

Steve,

Originally posted by Apogee
... several runs of CAT 6 for my speaker cables (teflon insulated, very fine strands).


Is this not a good idea? Please explain....

how shall the poor old electrons decide which strand to use ? (devilish :) ) .... haven't asked my Shaman about the topic, wiil do soon, but honestly, try out to A/B a single strand cable with a multistranded one and prepare yourself to have one of the most common audiophile prejudices shattered into shreds :)

Me is unable to explain the weird math Prof.Malcolm Hawksford has developed (anyone else taking he challenge?) to backup the statement that conductors should be as thin as possible and single-stranded but abstract of this theory seems to be that the signal's electric field rides horseback on the (ideal) conductors surface and if the conductor is less than ideal and has e.g. a flawed surface, the field penetrates the conductor and its wavefront gets smeared in the time domain. The thicker the conductor is (the bigger the half diameter is), the more the wavefront get smeared.

As there is no ideal conductor, atleast one dimension is to be kept close to zero in order to prevent the field from digging too deep. If we want to comply with this theory but need cross-sectional area, we automatically arrive at foils.
 
Hello all,
Hagtec - I like CAT5 networking cable (24AWG solid core) for a more modern approach. Extremely low cost.
I have tried Cat-5 and I don't like it compared to 10 or preferably 25 pair, despite the low cost.
Leroy - I have a bad experience with multiple stranded cable as speaker cable. The inductance may be low but the capacitance increases enormously. That leads to loss of detail in the high frequencies. It also might damage the amplifier due to parasitic oscillations.
I have tried these cables on plenty of systems from cheap shelf combo systems to serious hi-end hifi to high power Live PA systems, and universally gotten better results - cleaner, nicer, more detail, better lows, better mids - esp female vocals, better highs - cybals that tiiiiing as opposed to tissssh etc.
A degree of capacitive loading seems to be a benefit to real world production amplifiers, one result being reduction of false highs and giving a more correct HF characteristic.
The only amp that has ever given me problems is a Naim tri-amp system - yes 25 pair caused caused oscillation condition - but this was to expected given that Naim specifies and depends on high inductance ribbon cable.
Is this stuff just rebranded transmitter aerial feeder cable ?.
Bernard - using something similiar: a twisted pair of Tefcel-insulated copper wire which is NOT tinned or silvered out the outside, pure copper only. From own experiments, i have abandoned multistranded wires, be it for speakers or interconnects and i use wires as thin as possible.
Inspired by Allen Wright's cable cookbook, i use foil/ribbon conductors if i want to maintain both cross-section ultrathin in atleast one direction and required cross-sectional area for low resistance.
Yes, I agree that no platings on the copper sounds nicer.
I have seen and heard flat foil cable like you describe and I liked the sound, but ergonomically not such good WAF compared to
25 pair.
HDTVman - I've used the same thing, but, you need to keep them short if the amp. can't take hi C loads. Not a problem for amps with good stability. Have you ever looked at this cable with a TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer)? 8 ohms for 25 pair cable, very interesting
As above, the only problems have been with Naim junk.
No facilities to do TDR testing - can someone please send Jocko Homo a few examples (cat-5, 10 pair, 20 pair, 25 pair) so he can publish his results here ?
A decade ago I did some loop inductance measurements on a bunch of cables including - fig8 bell wire, fig8 240v lamp cord, monster cable, and 10 pair.
I did not record the figures but the best was 10 pair and the worst was monster cable - the sonic effects are easily apparent in A/B testing.
A further benefits is that systems can go louder, and even then do not get nasty in the same manner.
IMO - if you want tinnitus use monster cable. ( What a grand example of marketing ! - just like Bose )
Apogee - Until reading this thread, I thought that the stranded approach was a good one. Hence, I was planning on using several runs of CAT 6 for my speaker cables (teflon insulated, very fine strands).
Is this not a good idea? Please explain....
Bernard is perfectly correct - expect flat ribbon cable to be better than any other cable format.
Re Cat-6, in my experience I do not like the sound of teflon, and not enough copper in it.
For most owner/systems, I find 20 pair price/performance/WAF to fit very well.
I have sold many of these cables and I get very positive feedback
everytime.
(The clothes line out my back porch is made from monster cable, and it works very well for drying clothes, but I would not bother to listen to it.)

Just my extra two cents worth,
Regards, Eric.
 
Thanks Bernard for the reply!

One more question if I may....

If I switch to foil conductors, is it better to "stack" them on top of each other with an insulator between for each polarity or run them separately.

I ask this question because of how often I've read about twisted conductors sounding better... I've never understood exactly why since it results in a longer path to the destination...yet everyone seems to do it...

If as you mention, the field surrounding the conductor is affecting the signal, then is it better mix the fields or isolate them?

Thanks to all for any info you're willing to provide!

Steve
 
Yes, stack the conductors to minimize the loop area between them. It's to keep the self-inductance down. Make sure you have good insulation. Or just go buy the Goertz.

I once built some test gear to measure the differences in cable. It used some diffamps to detect the difference between the outgoing signal and that received at the other end into a resistive 8 ohm load. The difference goind from lamp cord to CAT5 (4 pair) was remarkable. Easily measured. I'd say the amplitude of error was 5x to 10x less with CAT5. I got scope photos somewhere...

But I was not happy. The diffamps had too little bandwidth themselves to really do the job.

Anyway, more pairs reduce the inductance. Think of it as removing the series impedance between the amp and speaker. The shunt impedance (capacitance) is only an amplifier problem - mostly on those using feedback.
 
You should check out the DIY Cat 5 cable instructions at http://www.geocities.com/venhaus1/diycatfivecables.html these things are awesome. I tried them at home on my setup in place of my Nordost Flat Line and liked them more. They take a while to make but you really can't beat the price. If you make them and dont like them at first give them time to break in, I have yet to understand how a cable needs time to break in, but after 70 hours or so they sound amazing. The most amazing part has to be the price...they are so incredibly cheap to make and they sound great. the capacitance thing has been brought up as an issue but it isnt like they have a higher capacitance than any other wire out there, it is said on the website that they compare to other high capacitance wires like kimber kable, etc. I think that if a little more capacitance is what you have to have to get that low of inductance then it might be worth it. I listened to them with both a Curcio ST-70 and a Fisher power amp and neither one of the amps had a problem with the capacitance. Just throught I would throw this out there.
 
I just made myself some 6 foot CAT5 cables with a pair of 9 conductor braids for each. Prior to using the CAT5, I was using acoustic research 16 gauge speaker wire, which was working pretty good. I don't think my system has the resolution to enable me to hear any major difference between the AR and the CAT5 cables...though with the CAT5 cables it SEEMS like sounds are more defined. When playing music, it is easier for me to distinguish different instruments. Note that I said it SEEMS like this...I really have no way to prove that these cables are any better or worse than the AR cables. My amp is a Kenwood VR309 and my speakers are Sony SSMF515s.

-= SsZERO =-
 
The claim is that the electrons flowing through the cables sorta carve out a path for themselves through the molecules of the wire...or was it atoms...I forget. Once this path is carved out, they will flow more freely and thus your sound will be reproduced more smoothly/naturally/nicely.

I think a lot of people who get too carried away with audio equipment begin to make things up in order to propogate their interests. It also creates business opportunities for companies and individuals alike. :)

-= SsZERO =-

leroy said:
Cable break in?

Please explain, the cable first doesn't know there's current running through it and after a while it realises it should act as an conductor?