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Simple PP vs. Tubelab SE

yoaudio

Member
Paid Member
2010-10-29 6:49 pm
Northern Michigan
Has anyone compared the sound quality between the two?
I'm looking to build my first tube amp to drive my 90.5 dB
speakers I built from here-
N3 - N3

I'm leaning toward the Simple PP.
I will be using my Harmon Kardon HK-3490 for a sub woofer and as a pre amp, my room is 12'x42' w/hard wood floor. Any recommendations
would be greatly appreciated.
 
Those are two different type of amps. One is push-pull and the other is single ended triode. Latter may require higher efficiency speaker due to their low-ish output but 90.5 dB speaker may be ok for SE if you don't crank it up. I personally prefer the sound of single ended triode (mated with high efficiency speakers) so that's what I would recommend. SE preserves more of even order harmonics than push-pull thus giving more natural like sound than p-p which strips away even order harmonics through its differential circuit operation.
 
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I have built the Tubelab SSE and the SP-P. They are indeed different sounding, but the major differences will have much to do with the speakers you use.

My SSE is currently set up running KT88's as triodes. It performs very well with even 87db speakers. To me it sounds a bit on the "soft" side. One day I may replace the budget Hammond OPTs with something better.

On the other hand my SP-P is all about dynamics. The sound is very detailed but not fatiguing. The bass (Edcor OPT's) is incredibly good. I have no idea of the actual wpc, but it will fill my average-sized room with plenty of music, again feeding 87db speakers. I'm very happy with it.

Which to choose? I'm glad I built both of them. I'd say you can't go wrong with either.
 
As Even said, they are two very different amps. As Neon said, how they sound also depends on how you build them and what they are driving. If you are accustomed to solid state gear, you might feel more at home with the Simple PP. I have both and I don't prefer one over the other. But with my 98dB speakers, I listen to the Simple SE the most. It has large OPTs and the combo kicks it pretty well. The Simple PP is currently residing in my shop where it has less efficient speakers to drive and it drives them very easily.
 
SE preserves more of even order harmonics than push-pull thus giving more natural like sound than p-p which strips away even order harmonics through its differential circuit operation.

This is flat out INCORRECT. P-P cancels even order harmonics generated WITHIN the amp - it DOES NOT affect the music's harmonics, second or otherwise.

OK?

Regards, Allen
 
This is flat out INCORRECT. P-P cancels even order harmonics generated WITHIN the amp - it DOES NOT affect the music's harmonics, second or otherwise.

OK?

Regards, Allen


As the designer of

http://www.vacuumstate.com/fileupload/dpa300B_brochure_lo_rez.pdf


dpa300B_600dpi_optimised.jpg


which I've heard - Mr Wright certainly knows a thing or 3 about building a gorgeously musical amp.
 
P-P cancels even order harmonics generated WITHIN the amp

To be more technically correct only the even harmonics generated within the portion of the amp that is fully differential and perfectly balanced are cancelled. That may be all or most of the circuitry in some of Allen's amps, but applies only to the output stage in the Simple P-P. All even harmonics that are present at the amps input and those generated in the input stages are present in the output. Some second harmonics are generated in the output stage due to imperfect tube and OPT matching.

A good SE amp will have the second harmonic as its primary THD component.

A good P-P amp will add some second harmonic, and the primary THD component will be a mix of third and some second harmonic. Some higher order harmonics will be added on strong signals.

A well balanced fully differential P-P amp will add nearly no second harmonic and its primary THD component is third harmonic.
 

yoaudio

Member
Paid Member
2010-10-29 6:49 pm
Northern Michigan
Thanks for the input.
I'll build one of them, then wait for the universal P-P Driver board.
What is considered high efficient speakers?
I've noticed a lot of DYI speaker kits are inefficient except for the Fostek Full range speaker, the FE166En doesn't look to bad at 94dB. I could build a pair
of those horn cabinets cheap, I all ready have the wood.
 
What is considered high efficient speakers?

That is a bit subjective. The amount of sensitivity you need depends not only on the output capability of the amp but also the space you are listening in. There is also the speaker impedance curve to consider and how that plays with an amp's dampening factor and so forth, but we are talking rules-of-thumb here.

So how big is the space? My room that I have my setup in is about 20ft by 36ft. The system is at one end. The Simple SE at full tilt (KT88 in UL mode) with my 98dB speakers (Klipsch KLF-10) can rattle the walls with bass and drive you out of the room. Driving my Boston Acoustics A70s (about 90dB, IIRC) it can be plenty loud but does not shake the room.

I also have a Tubelab SE and with 45s it can barely make 2 watts. I use this mainly when I am sitting right in front of the speakers trying to get immersed. For this, 2W is plenty to drive the KLFs to comfortable levels with good range but it struggles to drive less sensitive speakers.
 
That is a bit subjective. The amount of sensitivity you need depends not only on the output capability of the amp but also the space you are listening in. There is also the speaker impedance curve to consider and how that plays with an amp's dampening factor and so forth, but we are talking rules-of-thumb here.

So how big is the space? My room that I have my setup in is about 20ft by 36ft. The system is at one end. The Simple SE at full tilt (KT88 in UL mode) with my 98dB speakers (Klipsch KLF-10) can rattle the walls with bass and drive you out of the room. Driving my Boston Acoustics A70s (about 90dB, IIRC) it can be plenty loud but does not shake the room.

I also have a Tubelab SE and with 45s it can barely make 2 watts. I use this mainly when I am sitting right in front of the speakers trying to get immersed. For this, 2W is plenty to drive the KLFs to comfortable levels with good range but it struggles to drive less sensitive speakers.


Russ, out of curiosity, how many watts do you get from the S SE with KT88/UL, and with which OPT?

I have a custom built ( Eddie Vaughn) EL34 triode SE amp that is probably not much more power than Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, and definitely less than George Wright Mono7 (300B), but it's certainly more musically engaging and "feels" more dynamic than either of those. I'm listening mostly to speakers ranging from Fostex126/127/167 to Mark Audio CHR / EL70 / Alpair7, at SPL well below 90dB, 3-4 meters listening distance in 2 rooms of approx 2500ft^3 and 4000ft^ .
 
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This is flat out INCORRECT. P-P cancels even order harmonics generated WITHIN the amp - it DOES NOT affect the music's harmonics, second or otherwise.

OK?

Regards, Allen
Perhaps my reply was too generalized. I'm not the best writer here.
A good SE amp will have the second harmonic as its primary THD component.

A good P-P amp will add some second harmonic, and the primary THD component will be a mix of third and some second harmonic. Some higher order harmonics will be added on strong signals.

A well balanced fully differential P-P amp will add nearly no second harmonic and its primary THD component is third harmonic.
Thus they do sound different.
 
Watts of SSE with KT88/UL

out of curiosity, how many watts do you get from the S SE with KT88/UL, and with which OPT?

Chris,

When you last heard my SSE it was with EL34s running in triode. I have since changed to KT-88s and running in UL mode it certainly seems to have more power though I could only guess at the wattage. I'm away this weekend if you want to borrow the amp to evaluate with your speakers.
 
Russ, out of curiosity, how many watts do you get from the S SE with KT88/UL, and with which OPT?........It should be on the order of 12-14W, but I have not measured it myself. I'm using the "big honkin'" Edcors (CXSE25-8-5K).

I had one assembled with the same big Edcor OPT's and the Allied 6K7VG power transformer. I ran it in every mode possible. With EL34's in triode mode I got 7 WPC. With KT88's in UL I got 14 WPC. I stole the OPT's out of that amp to build a Tubelab SE with 307A pentodes, but that amp never got finished.

I have a pair of Yamaha NS-10M Studio monitor speakers in my work room that are 87 to 88db inefficient. The room is only 10 by 11 feet so the SSE is plenty loud with either tube setup. I prefer the EL34 in triode for music where detail is important, and the KT88 in UL when I crank up the rock. I still find that I prefer the sound of the TSE with 45's but that is suitable only in a dead quiet environment with those speakers.

I have a pair of Hawthorne Silver Iris 15 inch Open Baffle (96db) drivers mounted in a pair of 1941 vintage Zenith console radios in the living room. There speakers are not great at resolving delicate details, but the bass from Pink Floyd can be heard inside the house across the street with the KT88's in UL.

I have been building amplifiers using tubes, transistors and chips (no digital stuff yet) for over 40 years. I have built some speaker systems but they have either been for guitar amps or disco thumpers, no HiFi stuff. That has changed. I decided to make a set of speakers. Actually I couldn't decide on exactly which set of speakers, so there will be two sets. I got several conflicting stories about what would be sufficient for my music and favorite 2 WPC amp (the 45 based TSE) and I lucked into some trades that netted me the drivers, so all I needed to buy is wood. When these are done I may have different opinions about tubes and speakers.

I decided to start on the big guys first since those drivers showed up first. They are nearing completion. The big ones:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/118236-s-p-q-r-ez10-cast-10-a.html

When they are done I will start on the FE166En based FH3's.


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172937-frugel-horn-mk3-beta-builds.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3.html
 
I have a friend who has some real expen$ive ($10K+) full range (plus sub)horn speakers with Lowther drivers. My amps went to visit them. They sounded real nice, probably the best sounding system that I have heard. So, $10K or even $1K speakers are out of my price range, but I am willing to buy some plywood for science. I even sprang for the good stuff.
 
I decided to make a set of speakers. Actually I couldn't decide on exactly which set of speakers, so there will be two sets.

Speaker building is fun and addictive. I find there is something especially satisfying about constructing a set of full range, back loaded horns. I would have predicted the first set you build would not be your last, but it seems you've already made that decision. :)
 

howard99

Member
2006-08-29 5:05 am
speakers

hartley1_editedresize.jpg

hartley2resize.jpg

Here are my current speakers, 2nd diy build, hartley 7" tweeter, 4" eton mid and 10" hartley woofer. Used to have JBL 2405 supertweeter. I am going to replace them one day. Have run these with a passive crossover and different amps from hafler 100wpc, 75tl push pull monoblocks, 6c33c stereo se and el84 stereo push pull. all sounded great just a bit different.
 
I had one assembled with the same big Edcor OPT's and the Allied 6K7VG power transformer. I ran it in every mode possible. With EL34's in triode mode I got 7 WPC. With KT88's in UL I got 14 WPC. I stole the OPT's out of that amp to build a Tubelab SE with 307A pentodes, but that amp never got finished.

I have a pair of Yamaha NS-10M Studio monitor speakers in my work room that are 87 to 88db inefficient. The room is only 10 by 11 feet so the SSE is plenty loud with either tube setup. I prefer the EL34 in triode for music where detail is important, and the KT88 in UL when I crank up the rock. I still find that I prefer the sound of the TSE with 45's but that is suitable only in a dead quiet environment with those speakers.

I have a pair of Hawthorne Silver Iris 15 inch Open Baffle (96db) drivers mounted in a pair of 1941 vintage Zenith console radios in the living room. There speakers are not great at resolving delicate details, but the bass from Pink Floyd can be heard inside the house across the street with the KT88's in UL.

I have been building amplifiers using tubes, transistors and chips (no digital stuff yet) for over 40 years. I have built some speaker systems but they have either been for guitar amps or disco thumpers, no HiFi stuff. That has changed. I decided to make a set of speakers. Actually I couldn't decide on exactly which set of speakers, so there will be two sets. I got several conflicting stories about what would be sufficient for my music and favorite 2 WPC amp (the 45 based TSE) and I lucked into some trades that netted me the drivers, so all I needed to buy is wood. When these are done I may have different opinions about tubes and speakers.

I decided to start on the big guys first since those drivers showed up first. They are nearing completion. The big ones:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/118236-s-p-q-r-ez10-cast-10-a.html

When they are done I will start on the FE166En based FH3's.


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172937-frugel-horn-mk3-beta-builds.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3.html


George: I think you mean FE126?

Fleming: thanks for the offer - this weekend looks a bit hectic for me, but I might take you up on that some other time.