Hello.
I have Wharfedale Diamond 9.5, I used them for awhile but I want to replace their drivers, for two reasons.
1) They aren't flat and have built-in EQ.
2) I want to improve and have better performance in my professional home studio.
At first, I thought to buy active studio monitors, but it's very expansive, atleast 1,700$... I'm deeply aware how much money you can save by doing stuff by your own.
What I want is to change the drivers in my Wharfedales, I need two 6.5 inch drivers, bass and midrange, and another 1 inch twitter.
Please recommend 3 drivers. The speakers are 60 liters.
I have Wharfedale Diamond 9.5, I used them for awhile but I want to replace their drivers, for two reasons.
1) They aren't flat and have built-in EQ.
2) I want to improve and have better performance in my professional home studio.
At first, I thought to buy active studio monitors, but it's very expansive, atleast 1,700$... I'm deeply aware how much money you can save by doing stuff by your own.
What I want is to change the drivers in my Wharfedales, I need two 6.5 inch drivers, bass and midrange, and another 1 inch twitter.
Please recommend 3 drivers. The speakers are 60 liters.
In order:
1/ No drive unit is completely flat in a conventional box -especially a fairly flat-fronted / sharp-edged box like the Diamonds. So if you want 'completely flat' you'll likely need EQ in the crossover to account for edge diffraction etc. whatever you drop into them
2/ We'd all like that. 😉
Two questions: first, what's your budget? And second, what measurement gear do you have (since you'll need to measure the drivers in the cabinet in order to design a new crossover)?
1/ No drive unit is completely flat in a conventional box -especially a fairly flat-fronted / sharp-edged box like the Diamonds. So if you want 'completely flat' you'll likely need EQ in the crossover to account for edge diffraction etc. whatever you drop into them
2/ We'd all like that. 😉
Two questions: first, what's your budget? And second, what measurement gear do you have (since you'll need to measure the drivers in the cabinet in order to design a new crossover)?
Hello Scottmoose. To your questions:
You asked about the budget: around 1,300$.
About the measurement gear: I can loan from a friend.
But you made me wonder: Why won't I just have a crossover? Will a 1,300$ drivers will bump the performance that much?
Go Britian!
You asked about the budget: around 1,300$.
About the measurement gear: I can loan from a friend.
But you made me wonder: Why won't I just have a crossover? Will a 1,300$ drivers will bump the performance that much?
Go Britian!
A crossover is designed for a specific driver / enclosure combination, so you can't just use what's there already -it was designed & set up for the characteristics of the existing drive units. You'll probably get sound (providing impedance doesn't drop to some unsustainable level) but performance will likely be dire.
That sort of budget, I'd probably look at Scan Speak's Discovery line -they're generally good performers for the money, if used well, and fairly easy to work with. And they're consistent, which is useful. To be honest though, I suspect I'd be more inclined to simply sell the Wharfedales & either buy something commercial that's more to your taste, or an existing quality kit design (ditto). If your priority is the end result rather than the hobby aspect, unless you're an experienced designer, you'll likely get better results that way. In some ways a rather boring piece of advice -but it's generally true.
That sort of budget, I'd probably look at Scan Speak's Discovery line -they're generally good performers for the money, if used well, and fairly easy to work with. And they're consistent, which is useful. To be honest though, I suspect I'd be more inclined to simply sell the Wharfedales & either buy something commercial that's more to your taste, or an existing quality kit design (ditto). If your priority is the end result rather than the hobby aspect, unless you're an experienced designer, you'll likely get better results that way. In some ways a rather boring piece of advice -but it's generally true.
Thanks Scott, I'll go with your last advice about selling & buying commercially stuff. I don't want adventures.
Trying to (re)engineer a set of monitors to perform on par with some existing, successful commercial designs is no small undertaking. The more revealing the drivers are, the harder they're to tame and make sound flat. Be prepared to budget at least half that money for the crossovers if they're going to be passive.
A tried and true recipe for reasonably flat sounding monitors is the good old vifa P17WJ00-08 and ScanSpeak D2905-9500. If the polypropylene sound isn't your cup of tea, go for the ScanSpeak 18W8542 and Morel MDT30. PMC used similar drivers and were respectable performers for a 2 way design..A 3 way is even more ambitious but isn't a good idea for nearfield setups. You'd be better off building a set of these from scratch with proper fitting enclosures than making something fit and function in already existing enclosures. I have some experience mixing/mastering on PMCs. They're very good when set up correctly with decent amplification. Anything similar to these will get the job done and won't burn out your ears after long sessions.
A tried and true recipe for reasonably flat sounding monitors is the good old vifa P17WJ00-08 and ScanSpeak D2905-9500. If the polypropylene sound isn't your cup of tea, go for the ScanSpeak 18W8542 and Morel MDT30. PMC used similar drivers and were respectable performers for a 2 way design..A 3 way is even more ambitious but isn't a good idea for nearfield setups. You'd be better off building a set of these from scratch with proper fitting enclosures than making something fit and function in already existing enclosures. I have some experience mixing/mastering on PMCs. They're very good when set up correctly with decent amplification. Anything similar to these will get the job done and won't burn out your ears after long sessions.
kali lp6 offer great monitoring at just 400 for two, not much of a difference between them in 8030c ime. I often mix on the lp6 at my friends place and they make wonder what im doing with my time trying to build great speakers. genelec and neumann level stuff is achievable, the dxt mon for instance.
Ive mixed plenty of stuff on c notes, anything neutral can generally give good results. mixing is more about experience, taste, and getting good sleep than spending a bunch on good monitors.
the suggestions of drivers and materials is silly to me. no need to delve that deep, look at what basic peerless drivers neumann uses for instance. that's one aspect about diy that kinda annoys me, lots of magical hooha still floating around. driver integration and cabinet design are what matter, not cone material. if there's no waveguide either you're wasting your time and that's most speakers, just some food for thought.
Ive mixed plenty of stuff on c notes, anything neutral can generally give good results. mixing is more about experience, taste, and getting good sleep than spending a bunch on good monitors.
the suggestions of drivers and materials is silly to me. no need to delve that deep, look at what basic peerless drivers neumann uses for instance. that's one aspect about diy that kinda annoys me, lots of magical hooha still floating around. driver integration and cabinet design are what matter, not cone material. if there's no waveguide either you're wasting your time and that's most speakers, just some food for thought.
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Kali's stuff have impressive sound quality/ratio. I was impressed by the IN8.
Their real drawback are they are not as well finished that monitors that cost much more ( expected and not a real issue) and how long their electronic parts ( amplifier/eq) will last.
But given their price i would not hesitate to invest in them if i needed atm.
I don't know the lp6 but i'm sure they have same flavour as most waveguided dome monitors availlable.
Their real drawback are they are not as well finished that monitors that cost much more ( expected and not a real issue) and how long their electronic parts ( amplifier/eq) will last.
But given their price i would not hesitate to invest in them if i needed atm.
I don't know the lp6 but i'm sure they have same flavour as most waveguided dome monitors availlable.
I told my friend when his lp6 finish comes off, I can spray them with good durable paint. Did the same for my dayton subs where the cheap black vinyl wrap came off.
I'm no longer into that.
I was happy to hear there are "tried and true recipe" that will get me flat EQ without diving into the crossover stuff.
PMC's drivers cost 350$ and will get me 2,000$ worth monitors, that's a great deal.
Would you recommend me a tutorial how to build the monitors including electronics?
Presonus is also worth looking at if your short on funds. The issue with many of the budget monitors is the noisy built in amplification. I doubt you'll be happy with a budget off the shelf active 2 way if you're doing anything remotely critical. The cabinets and electronics are woefully miserable on these types of speakers. You get what you pay for. I even went so far as to try the Adam A7s and only needed to hear a few minutes of trusted material to stick them right back in the box to realize I was wasting my money. These monitors are meant for simple home studios with your basic Mac book running GarageBand.
I genuinely feel that a PMC inspired 2 way with ScanSpeak 18W8542 and Morel MDT30 is alot of monitor which can be achieved with minimal outlay and perform as well as anything under 4k, given you have basic design skills and knowledge of testing FR and THD. Troels has some nice designs ie the TQWT using one of the many great SS 7" woofers (very similar to the 18W8542) and Audax TW034 in WG.
The 18W8542 is one of the best 7" paper cone drivers I've heard in its price range to date and relatively easy to work with, given you use a proper LCR and cross around 2k to the TW034 with Troels recommended network for his given baffle width. The HF is the easy part, but with basic measurements and using Xsim or Vituix, a competent design can be had which can rival most passive 2 ways. The 18W8542 is a unique driver which reveals alot of nuances in the LF which many other bass mids don't, while also having good midrange resolution. It also plays relatively low in average sized boxes while not being too power hungry.
If you can find a pair of Peerless NE180Ws and go with Morel CAT378s, thats another good combo with great sound. The Peerless is another one of those unicorn drivers that does everything very well, yet is forgiving to cross over in the 2 - 2.5k range. The CAT378 is smooth, dynamic and very capable. You can listen to it all day long without fatigue, but it conveys everything you need to hear.
This all may sound like I'm being the devils advocate here, but I'm giving honest feedback if your on the fence of building your own monitors. A small 2 way isn't hard to do if you have the basic skills. You just need to understand it won't be plug and play. You will need to be patient with it.
I genuinely feel that a PMC inspired 2 way with ScanSpeak 18W8542 and Morel MDT30 is alot of monitor which can be achieved with minimal outlay and perform as well as anything under 4k, given you have basic design skills and knowledge of testing FR and THD. Troels has some nice designs ie the TQWT using one of the many great SS 7" woofers (very similar to the 18W8542) and Audax TW034 in WG.
The 18W8542 is one of the best 7" paper cone drivers I've heard in its price range to date and relatively easy to work with, given you use a proper LCR and cross around 2k to the TW034 with Troels recommended network for his given baffle width. The HF is the easy part, but with basic measurements and using Xsim or Vituix, a competent design can be had which can rival most passive 2 ways. The 18W8542 is a unique driver which reveals alot of nuances in the LF which many other bass mids don't, while also having good midrange resolution. It also plays relatively low in average sized boxes while not being too power hungry.
If you can find a pair of Peerless NE180Ws and go with Morel CAT378s, thats another good combo with great sound. The Peerless is another one of those unicorn drivers that does everything very well, yet is forgiving to cross over in the 2 - 2.5k range. The CAT378 is smooth, dynamic and very capable. You can listen to it all day long without fatigue, but it conveys everything you need to hear.
This all may sound like I'm being the devils advocate here, but I'm giving honest feedback if your on the fence of building your own monitors. A small 2 way isn't hard to do if you have the basic skills. You just need to understand it won't be plug and play. You will need to be patient with it.
What PMC drivers can you get for $350?
A variant of the TB2 used the Vufa P17WJ00 and D27AG metal dome.
A very close cousin to the 18W8542 was used in the older Proac Studio 100, if you're familiar with them.
Another great diy 2 way is the Bragi kit from Seas.
Seas also makes a realy nice coaxial 2 way kit called the Loki.
A variant of the TB2 used the Vufa P17WJ00 and D27AG metal dome.
A very close cousin to the 18W8542 was used in the older Proac Studio 100, if you're familiar with them.
Another great diy 2 way is the Bragi kit from Seas.
Seas also makes a realy nice coaxial 2 way kit called the Loki.
"If the polypropylene sound isn't your cup of tea, go for the ScanSpeak 18W8542 and Morel MDT30. PMC used similar drivers"
There is a difference between similar and original drivers.
And drivers are not the only thing to take into account in the overall result: filter and box ( build technique used as well as shape) are not the least...
If i were into building something like a two way monitoring for nearfield i would take a look at what is offered by commercial brands and use it as a basis for a design.
One of the major trend for 30 years is : waveguided dome and minimising diffraction ( Genelec, Amphion, Jbl, etc, etc,...).
This is one of your best bet for both purpose if you want to build something similar ( without major reverse engineering):
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-mon-rnx/
If you want more low end extension ( bigger sized):
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-mon-182/
And drivers are not the only thing to take into account in the overall result: filter and box ( build technique used as well as shape) are not the least...
If i were into building something like a two way monitoring for nearfield i would take a look at what is offered by commercial brands and use it as a basis for a design.
One of the major trend for 30 years is : waveguided dome and minimising diffraction ( Genelec, Amphion, Jbl, etc, etc,...).
This is one of your best bet for both purpose if you want to build something similar ( without major reverse engineering):
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-mon-rnx/
If you want more low end extension ( bigger sized):
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-mon-182/
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The wires connection and the wood work must be taken into consideration, although it's not something I can't deal with (with help of professionals), I see now a better option to buy a second hand old studio-monitors, I saw the PMC TB2 profiguy mentioned cost 350$ on eBay, the drivers cost 180$, I'd add another 170$ and save the effort and I'm not looking for a hobbie...
Wires connections?
Hmm. I don't know what you expect but no exotic or virgin blood bath connectors used in the Atc Scm110A or Kinoshita's mains i used to seat above.
If you want Pmc and no hobby don't try to build something: buy the original ones.
Hmm. I don't know what you expect but no exotic or virgin blood bath connectors used in the Atc Scm110A or Kinoshita's mains i used to seat above.
If you want Pmc and no hobby don't try to build something: buy the original ones.
These small PMCs ... are nice speakers but by no means reliable monitors.
Do yourself a favour - sell your gear and get a pair of KH120ii + MA1. That's probably a stretch of your budget but sets the baseline for a reliable monitoring situation.
Don't forget the room, this is something where you can get pretty far with DIY absorbers.
And when you add a KH750 subwoofer later you have a nice, precise and reliable full range monitor solution starting at 20Hz.
Do yourself a favour - sell your gear and get a pair of KH120ii + MA1. That's probably a stretch of your budget but sets the baseline for a reliable monitoring situation.
Don't forget the room, this is something where you can get pretty far with DIY absorbers.
And when you add a KH750 subwoofer later you have a nice, precise and reliable full range monitor solution starting at 20Hz.
Hello itamar2312!
My first start with something like this is a simulation with the software here:
https://www.visaton.de/en/literature-software/software
I am too old for the learning curve of VituixCAD, so i took BoxSim for a first quick shot with a cabinet with the dimensions of your Wharfdale 9.5
I start with an active crossover for quick development and try to get as quick as possible as close as possible to the target function of bessel 2nd order Q=0.58.
To be quick i picked up the Visaton chassis with the good measurements made by Visaton that makes the simulation quite close to what you can really get.
2,5 Way 2 X AL170-8 Woofer - Midwoofer https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/woofers/al-170-8-ohm and the good old 25 mm dome tweeter with the waveguide available in round or rectangular shape https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/dome-tweeters/g-25-ffl-8-ohm https://www.visaton.de/en/products/accessories/waveguides-and-horns/waveguide-wg-148-r or https://www.visaton.de/en/products/accessories/waveguides-and-horns/waveguide-wg-220x150
I have attached the BoxSim BPJ file packed in a 7-zip archive if you want to take a closer look to the simulation with the downloaded software - it is portable, no install required but only for windows. Sorry for the german stuff instead of english, i use the latest BoxSim build 2.1 that is only available in de-de and not in en-us.
My first start with something like this is a simulation with the software here:
https://www.visaton.de/en/literature-software/software
I am too old for the learning curve of VituixCAD, so i took BoxSim for a first quick shot with a cabinet with the dimensions of your Wharfdale 9.5
I start with an active crossover for quick development and try to get as quick as possible as close as possible to the target function of bessel 2nd order Q=0.58.
To be quick i picked up the Visaton chassis with the good measurements made by Visaton that makes the simulation quite close to what you can really get.
2,5 Way 2 X AL170-8 Woofer - Midwoofer https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/woofers/al-170-8-ohm and the good old 25 mm dome tweeter with the waveguide available in round or rectangular shape https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/dome-tweeters/g-25-ffl-8-ohm https://www.visaton.de/en/products/accessories/waveguides-and-horns/waveguide-wg-148-r or https://www.visaton.de/en/products/accessories/waveguides-and-horns/waveguide-wg-220x150
I have attached the BoxSim BPJ file packed in a 7-zip archive if you want to take a closer look to the simulation with the downloaded software - it is portable, no install required but only for windows. Sorry for the german stuff instead of english, i use the latest BoxSim build 2.1 that is only available in de-de and not in en-us.
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SBA, I deeply appriciate your professional work for me, I sincerely consider this option.
I have a question, I saw in some studio-monitors build-up guides a crossover board additionally to the drivers. I don't understand if I must have a crossover board or I can just use these drivers without it?
I have a question, I saw in some studio-monitors build-up guides a crossover board additionally to the drivers. I don't understand if I must have a crossover board or I can just use these drivers without it?