Recommendations for a really good CD to replace the B&C DE250?

Hello everyone, I've been enjoying the "SFE – 812" speakers I built a few months back, but my plan all along was to test a different compression driver as they are quite easy to change given the SEOS10 horn I'm using.

I'm very pleased with the DE250, but since this is the first compression driver I've ever really used, I'm looking for a higher end option say in the 200 to $300 each range, something that would overall sound better than what I'm using now - and with the same form factor.

Sometimes the DE250 comes across a little harsh, especially with female vocals, but it's tough for me to say since I've never compared to anything else.

So at the most basic level, this is just an experiment for me to compare what the various options on the market are, I'm also considering putting in a much cheaper CD to see what the other direction sounds like.

Thanks everyone in advance!




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Javad


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I stumbled across your speaker build a few days ago because I was looking at the faital drivers that you use. I bet they sound amazing.


Anyway, there is a compression driver that I'm interested in but I'm not at home now and cant remember the model number. It's supposedly designed to work in the xt1086 horn. Response is very flat in that horn and some guy said it sounds more detailed and airy than the de250. I'll see if I can find the thread when I'm back home tomorrow.
 
I stumbled across your speaker build a few days ago because I was looking at the faital drivers that you use. I bet they sound amazing.

Thanks, they do! They are incredibly light and detailed and they get VERY loud, really enjoying them especially for the price.


Anyway, there is a compression driver that I'm interested in but I'm not at home now and cant remember the model number. It's supposedly designed to work in the xt1086 horn. Response is very flat in that horn and some guy said it sounds more detailed and airy than the de250. I'll see if I can find the thread when I'm back home tomorrow.

Thank you, can't wait to hear about it :)
 
Be slow to decide what is causing this.

Allen they sound fantastic, incredible and are not "harsh" in general (only when I compare them to a really nice dome tweeter under very narrow circumstances), but I can only imagine they are not the best sounding CD on the market.

I'm interested in a recommendation for something anyone who has experience believes is a better sounding driver than the DE250.

In another thread a few have recommended the new Tymphany DFM-2535R00-08 and you can't beat that price, so that interests me, would love to hear any other ideas, thanks!

Javad
 
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AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
Allen they sound fantastic, incredible and are not "harsh" in general (only when I compare them to a really nice dome tweeter under very narrow circumstances), but I can only imagine they are not the best sounding CD on the market.
I've heard them sounding worse than a bad dome or piezo tweeter. I've heard them sound better than a good dome or plasma tweeter. I know what they are capable of and know it depends greatly on what you put in front of them and what you connect behind them, that's all I'm saying.

Also..
gedlee said:
In a blind listening test (16 audiophiles in the local club) between a B&C DE250 and a TAD meg-bucks 1" Alnico driver in identical system designs, the differences were not statistically significant, but the B&C edged out the TAD slightly.
<snip>
Each system was optimized for the driver set.
<snip>
The system design, waveguide and crossover will dominate the sound quality making the compression driver itself a very small aspect of the end result.
 

wdecho

Member
2014-10-28 11:45 am
Sometimes it's not the CD. Perhaps some adjustments to the crossover would help.

What frequency are you crossing the CD at and what woofers are you using?

I agree with you on changes in the crossovers. Try some better caps or maybe just different. Some of the Russian PIO caps are what I like best over Poly's. I also have tried motor run caps and they are neck and neck to the PIO.
 

Russellc

Member
Paid Member
2003-03-06 12:59 am
midwest
I will agree with many here....I had a pile of CD to compare, Altec, JBL, etc and the DE 250 took the cake with my Econowaves. Nary a harsh anything, but a number of crossover versions were gone through. Geddes has lots of info on this driver, you might read Zilches use of it in the latter parts of the Econowave thread on AudioKarma, and further fleshing it out on the Parts Express forum "PCD meddle"....or "Get your PCD meddle on" or something like that. Zilch was thorough on these, using CLIO and the PCD software. He shows the curves, discusses sound curves, etc.

Russellc
 
I've heard them sounding worse than a bad dome or piezo tweeter. I've heard them sound better than a good dome or plasma tweeter. I know what they are capable of and know it depends greatly on what you put in front of them and what you connect behind them, that's all I'm saying.

Also..

Interesting indeed, the DE250 is very highly regarded and I'm very happy with it, I'd simply like to try something else. If there is not a better sounding CD than the DE250 then so be it, if there is I'd love to hear about it :)

Thanks Allen!
Javad
 
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Sometimes it's not the CD. Perhaps some adjustments to the crossover would help.

What frequency are you crossing the CD at and what woofers are you using?

More info on the project here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/290106-seos-12-8-faitalpro-mtm-12-subwoofer-towers.html

This is a near field measurement at approx 1 meter, centered on the tweeter:

1dbe7a52562a16390db5621d468a42f1.jpg



XO is 1500hz at 12db LW, I have tested many XO configurations up to 3k hz and I feel this is the best sounding XO I have tested.

See my post above, simply looking for recommendations on anything anyone feels is better that I can reference.

Thanks!
Javad
 
IDEA #1 SEOS-12
An SEOS-12 waveguide will have better pattern control around the crossover frequency. From your pictures, it looks like an SEOS-12 should just fit out to the cabinet edges.

IDEA #2 Test a compression driver with a wider exit angle.
SEOS10 is 3.35" and SEOS12 is 3.55" deep, so pattern control is limited. The DE250 exit angle is 6 degrees, and this is considered "narrow". DE250 + SEOS10 measured polar pattern is "narrow=tight" and in some short listening rooms this can sound like aggressive-highs.

The Faital HF108 is an excellent plastic diaphragm compression driver with good & smooth low frequency extension. Exit Angle 31° Conical. $165

The BMS 4550 has a unique annular ring diaphragm which avoids most resonant modes. SEOS10 with the 14 degree exit angle should produce modest high frequency spreading in short rooms.
 
IDEA #1 SEOS-12
An SEOS-12 waveguide will have better pattern control around the crossover frequency. From your pictures, it looks like an SEOS-12 should just fit out to the cabinet edges.

IDEA #2 Test a compression driver with a wider exit angle.
SEOS10 is 3.35" and SEOS12 is 3.55" deep, so pattern control is limited. The DE250 exit angle is 6 degrees, and this is considered "narrow". DE250 + SEOS10 measured polar pattern is "narrow=tight" and in some short listening rooms this can sound like aggressive-highs.

The Faital HF108 is an excellent plastic diaphragm compression driver with good & smooth low frequency extension. Exit Angle 31° Conical. $165

The BMS 4550 has a unique annular ring diaphragm which avoids most resonant modes. SEOS10 with the 14 degree exit angle should produce modest high frequency spreading in short rooms.

Very helpful @Linesource, thank you! I was initially going to use the SEOS12 and actually had them, but got some advice to go with the Seos10 as it would match the directivity of the MTM 8" Faitals better, so that's why I went the 10 route.

I listed to these essentially on axis for what it's worth, I'll check out those options, thank you!

Javad
 
Interesting indeed, the DE250 is very highly regarded and I'm very happy with it, I'd simply like to try something else. If there is not a better sounding CD than the DE250 then so be it, if there is I'd love to hear about it :)

I don't have the DE250 but if you are going to try something else, I recommend the Radian 450PB. I have this unit and it's my favorite. They sound similar to my EMILAR EC-175.
 
I use SEOS12 with Radian 475PB. I don't know if it is "better" than DE250, but when I first measured the Radian in SEOS12 the exit hole wasn't perfectly lined up with the horn throat hole, which created a deep narrow notch at 8kHz. The throat entry is not perfectly round either. I'm afraid to fix it because I don't want to mess up the oblate spheroid throat geometry. Dr Geddes has said how critical the shape of the horn throat is to reducing distortion and harshness.

Like Russellc says, PCD or XSim are very helpful to design and fine tune crossovers. Correlating what you hear to what you see on a FR graph is extremely helpful to finding and fixing problems.

If you use a tube amp or other low damping factor amp, the rising impedance of the CD voice coil might cause rising FR which could sound harsh. If you use solid state amp then this is not likely to have a big effect.

Lastly, "studies have shown" :rolleyes: that people prefer a slightly falling treble FR rather than flat FR. Experiment with the tweeter parallel resistor which controls the tilt of FR above the xo. Google "B&K curve." A small -2dB change at 20kHz can make a huge difference in the sense of smoothness and listening enjoyment. Not everybody likes flat FR, but many speakers and kits are designed for that nowadays. ymmv :)

If you have a computer audio source, even if it's low fi headphone output from the laptop, consider applying some dsp EQ filters like parametric EQ, graphic EQ, etc. to "cure" the problem by ear. If EQ can fix it, then you know that your crossover needs adjustment, and you'll know the exact target FR to pursue. Then you can turn to XSim to see what parts changes are needed to hit your new target.
 

AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
but got some advice to go with the Seos10 as it would match the directivity of the MTM 8" Faitals better, so that's why I went the 10 route.
It is no easy task to optimise a crossover using a single measurement type of crossover simulator (almost all of them), without doing most of the calculation work outside of the simulator. I don't see an active setup any differently.

Using a single driver and round waveguide used well within its range, there is only one place you can cross, and blending power with pressure in the crossover is fiddly.

Move away from round and it becomes hazy. Broadly speaking an elliptical waveguide should be larger for the vertical control, so if it is on a flat baffle there will be pattern flip, unless you cross it above that point. The woofers will change with frequency from round, to elliptical to lobed.
 
I don't have the DE250 but if you are going to try something else, I recommend the Radian 450PB. I have this unit and it's my favorite. They sound similar to my EMILAR EC-175.

Big plus one. These are a step above everything else and it mainly due to the diaphragm. There is none of the slight harshness that you find in most other compression drivers regardless of price.