I've rabbit-holed down a number of paths, and am now confused at a higher level.
My room is 12.5 ft across from where the sound system must go. 13 ft across, then one side opens up into a larger basement area. Mildly acoustic absorbing drop ceiling. Decent room, some acoustic treatment behind the speakers and bookshelves. Current system is a HTA100 hybrid driven by TV optical or bluetooth from other things (bluetooth's limits show up). The speakers are Polk RT55 Two 6.5" and a 1" dome tweeter. Well supported (invisibly) by a decent subwoofer. Not as crisp and detailed as I'd like for nicely recorded music, but nice for the TV.
I intend to find or build a reasonably compact pair of cabinets. These would move away for TV time, and for my relaxing time, move into the room a bit, would still be oddly placed (I think frugalhorn mk3 and other rear firing designs are out.
Small footprint, ideally no more than 3 ft / meter tall, more or less. I'd really like to be able to build with already dimensioned lumber, standard widths being 3.5", 4.5", 5.5", 7.25", 8.25" and so on. Sides I can use good ply.
I'm looking for clean, crisp, transparent sound. I don't need super highs or magic earthshattering bass. I just need moderate volume. I can rig to my sub, or get a small sub for each speaker if need be, but having them stand alone OK would be nice. Not so easily "seeing" where the speakers are would be great. My odd HiVi system is invisible, I can look right at the drivers and can't see/hear that the sound is coming from there. That's the sensation I want.
Decision 1: Size of drivers. I'm listening to 3" HiVi B3N in pipe TL at about 20" washing across computer monitor screen. That's what I want but large. 3" drivers may be too little. Based on reviews of various posts here, 4" or 5" seem right, given the size of the room. I could easily be wrong, and 3" might allow slightly more compact.
Decision 2: Which driver? I keep coming back to the Pluvia 7.2 HD based on "listening" to youtube videos. Other contenders include the Alpair 7 MS. But I really don't know. Something $75/driver is great, but I could go to perhaps $110 before flinching.
Decision 3: Cabinet. I'm tempted by the various tall open boxes, e.g., TABAQ and Pensil. But the folded up Voigt pipe versions (e.g., long Sibelius discussion) got me thinking. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/markaudio-7ms-and-chp90-enclosure-options.402623/ has some compelling ideas. I really like the 12.5 ML design that heads that discussion, just conceptually. I may be nuts. Who knows, but that type of thing appeals. If I can pick a driver, and pull together a design that can use regular dimensioned lumber, then I can put together a nice solid-wood cabinet that would look good.
Odd question: Feasible, not bad, to put in a speaker selection switch box? My amplifier does not have a/b speaker select. I'd like to be able to use one amp to drive either set of speakers.
Thanks much for any suggestions and hints.
My room is 12.5 ft across from where the sound system must go. 13 ft across, then one side opens up into a larger basement area. Mildly acoustic absorbing drop ceiling. Decent room, some acoustic treatment behind the speakers and bookshelves. Current system is a HTA100 hybrid driven by TV optical or bluetooth from other things (bluetooth's limits show up). The speakers are Polk RT55 Two 6.5" and a 1" dome tweeter. Well supported (invisibly) by a decent subwoofer. Not as crisp and detailed as I'd like for nicely recorded music, but nice for the TV.
I intend to find or build a reasonably compact pair of cabinets. These would move away for TV time, and for my relaxing time, move into the room a bit, would still be oddly placed (I think frugalhorn mk3 and other rear firing designs are out.
Small footprint, ideally no more than 3 ft / meter tall, more or less. I'd really like to be able to build with already dimensioned lumber, standard widths being 3.5", 4.5", 5.5", 7.25", 8.25" and so on. Sides I can use good ply.
I'm looking for clean, crisp, transparent sound. I don't need super highs or magic earthshattering bass. I just need moderate volume. I can rig to my sub, or get a small sub for each speaker if need be, but having them stand alone OK would be nice. Not so easily "seeing" where the speakers are would be great. My odd HiVi system is invisible, I can look right at the drivers and can't see/hear that the sound is coming from there. That's the sensation I want.
Decision 1: Size of drivers. I'm listening to 3" HiVi B3N in pipe TL at about 20" washing across computer monitor screen. That's what I want but large. 3" drivers may be too little. Based on reviews of various posts here, 4" or 5" seem right, given the size of the room. I could easily be wrong, and 3" might allow slightly more compact.
Decision 2: Which driver? I keep coming back to the Pluvia 7.2 HD based on "listening" to youtube videos. Other contenders include the Alpair 7 MS. But I really don't know. Something $75/driver is great, but I could go to perhaps $110 before flinching.
Decision 3: Cabinet. I'm tempted by the various tall open boxes, e.g., TABAQ and Pensil. But the folded up Voigt pipe versions (e.g., long Sibelius discussion) got me thinking. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/markaudio-7ms-and-chp90-enclosure-options.402623/ has some compelling ideas. I really like the 12.5 ML design that heads that discussion, just conceptually. I may be nuts. Who knows, but that type of thing appeals. If I can pick a driver, and pull together a design that can use regular dimensioned lumber, then I can put together a nice solid-wood cabinet that would look good.
Odd question: Feasible, not bad, to put in a speaker selection switch box? My amplifier does not have a/b speaker select. I'd like to be able to use one amp to drive either set of speakers.
Thanks much for any suggestions and hints.
Pensil P7HD would be an option: https://www.markaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Pensil-P7HD.png
jeff
jeff
That's on the short list. I don't understand what I would gain and give up were I to choose between a tapered folded path, folded Voigt pipe and the Pensil simpler TL.Pensil P7HD would be an option: https://www.markaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Pensil-P7HD.png
jeff
The microtower concepts are rather appealing. extension://mjdgandcagmikhlbjnilkmfnjeamfikk/https://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/microTower-maps-020615.pdf I wanted a single driver. Adding one on top seems delightful, but is outside the design criteria. Going into the potential plans! The wall-mounted version is oddly appealing. I have to think about whether I can get the proper arrangement given the room and wall space! Thank youmicroTower Castle?
Just to clarify a point -the pensils are actually almost the opposite of that. The pensil alignment / alignments I created are typically (by intent) larger in volume terms than most MLTLs of similar (or lower) tuning. When I designed them a traditional acoustically large volume was a design objective for broadband gain purposes, to allow tuning & positioning flexibility, and because in the process I could damp the excess & provide something approaching a traditional resistive TL impedance load so they behaved reasonably consistently with a range of different amplifier types.
I didn’t get this concept and, therefore, didn’t take the damping far enough when I built Alpair 10.2 Pensils. The result was that I only used mine for a couple of months and moved on. I can only see all this now, after my recent experience building a pair of Maeshowe; the damping is as important as any other aspect of the build.damp the excess
My mindset in the past was always that I wanted to squeeze as much bass out of a design as I could. This is probably driven by the notion that “everybody knows fullrangers can’t do bass”. Your designs are so damned good that often enough there is simply too much bass by default, and the challenge is to tame it, not squeeze it for more. People like me need to pay more attention to that.
Regarding the OPs decision, I second the Castle microTowers. I know he wants single driver and has already said these aren’t in the running, but he did specifically say he wants the sound to come from “nowhere” (and everywhere?) and this is something that the Castle microTowers do better than most.
That explains so much! Thank you. The design makes sense now. My room is really crappy for positioning fun speakers that need space. I have absolute maximum of 8" wide, 12" deep, and 30" high. https://www.markaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Pensil-P7HD.png might well work - be easier if I could us a 5.5" interior width, because I can buy 5.5" wide finished boards, and trimming down the sides once assembled won't be an issue. I make violins, so I don't have a tablesaw and jointer.Just to clarify a point -the pensils are actually almost the opposite of that. The pensil alignment / alignments I created are typically (by intent) larger in volume terms than most MLTLs of similar (or lower) tuning. When I designed them a traditional acoustically large volume was a design objective for broadband gain purposes, to allow tuning & positioning flexibility, and because in the process I could damp the excess & provide something approaching a traditional resistive TL impedance load so they behaved reasonably consistently with a range of different amplifier types.
I'm still tempted by the various takes on the folded Voight like the Sibelius SG and it's copies delineated here on this site. Trying to understand whether I gain anything from a more-complex interior.
My small cylindrical TL speakers with B3N are set up so the sound appears to come from my monitor, with the soundstage occupying the whole monitor, really doesn't seem to have sound coming from the drivers at all. If I'm more than 5 feet away the sound still seems to come from a sphere occupying the monitor area and a bit above of it regardless of where I am in the room. I'm reminded of violins, where really nice ones feel as if the sound comes from a zone just above the bridge, a sphere radiating shimmering sound. Doesn't feel or seem it's coming from that little wooden box.Regarding the OPs decision, I second the Castle microTowers. I know he wants single driver and has already said these aren’t in the running, but he did specifically say he wants the sound to come from “nowhere” (and everywhere?) and this is something that the Castle microTowers do better than most.
That's the kind of transparency I want. I got that with some full-range 4" mounted pointing up in stuffed tubes with interior taper at my old violin shop. I had 4, 2 left and 2 right channel, inconspicuously around the shop. Really made for lovely background music, people had a hard time finding the speakers.
My current setup is good, but I can hear the speaker enclosures. Sounds cleaner with foam blocks around the cabinets. And the sound is thick and lush, but not transparent and super crisp. I really like the crispness and clarity of single driver. That's my main concern, is getting clarity for the music I like. My partner wants cartoons and movies to sound spectacular. Maybe I need two separate systems!
FYI/FWIW/YMMVThat's on the short list. I don't understand what I would gain and give up were I to choose between a tapered folded path, folded Voigt pipe and the Pensil simpler TL.
Call it part of the learning process. Potentially a bit expensive (we've all been there) but hopefully useful in the long run.I didn’t get this concept and, therefore, didn’t take the damping far enough when I built Alpair 10.2 Pensils. The result was that I only used mine for a couple of months and moved on. I can only see all this now, after my recent experience building a pair of Maeshowe; the damping is as important as any other aspect of the build.
Thanks for the kind words, but I'm not sure I'd say 'good'. It's just that in some cases, like the Woden horns, or the pensils, I designed them as a high-gain broadband alignment to give people more positioning & tuning flexibility by simply critically damping it for their own needs. As a wise man around here once said (and I hope I learned the lesson well 😉 ) -it makes life easier if you have too much rather than too little. If you have more than you need, you can do something about it a.k.a. it gives you more options. It's a lot harder to increase what doesn't exist in the first place.My mindset in the past was always that I wanted to squeeze as much bass out of a design as I could. This is probably driven by the notion that “everybody knows fullrangers can’t do bass”. Your designs are so damned good that often enough there is simply too much bass by default, and the challenge is to tame it, not squeeze it for more. People like me need to pay more attention to that.
Depending on your volume requirements , might be worth considering a larger driver. If you have a fixed xover on amp it should help a lot though. The 6.5" woofer you have already would go a lot louder than the p7.2hd
It's actually a powered 10" sub that's rather nice. No manufacturer's plate or indication. A bit odd. I can go to a 4" driver and am looking at that. Really tight on space. I need narrow cabinets, or a doorway is blocked, or I can't open drawers, or the cabinet would get crisped by the fireplace. I tried my 3" tube TLs with the sub, and it blends perhaps imperceptibly. I believe I can hear the sub, but I'm not really aware of much except the foundation of the sound sneaking in as I gradually bump the volume on the sub up. Which is just what I want to see. If I can tell the sub is kicking in, then something is wrong. I also raised the resonant frequency of my TLs, which has them sounding better. They're insane in the solo voice/instrument/chamber music areas. Not as good with old-school rock, but they weren't intended to be!The 6.5" woofer you have already would go a lot louder than the p7.2hd
Piping in here with a couple of observations:
Re Scott’s design acumen in general - yup he’s got a pretty good grip on the subject of getting surprising performance out of small wideband drivers - from budget to “carriage trade” pricing;
The Castle microtower was a format I found intriguing enough to build several several versions - my 92 year old mom still has a pair with CHN70s, running on a very basic Sony or Denon Receiver (I can’t actually remember which 🤔). I should actually try to get some in room measurements there, just for shitzengiggles.
Re Scott’s design acumen in general - yup he’s got a pretty good grip on the subject of getting surprising performance out of small wideband drivers - from budget to “carriage trade” pricing;
The Castle microtower was a format I found intriguing enough to build several several versions - my 92 year old mom still has a pair with CHN70s, running on a very basic Sony or Denon Receiver (I can’t actually remember which 🤔). I should actually try to get some in room measurements there, just for shitzengiggles.
Chris is getting into what things measure like. A good hobby :^)
I have EL70eN Castles and a set of experimental mictoTower II clone with CHBWeN and ERT26eN with a thisshould keep the tweetes safe cap XO.
dave
I have EL70eN Castles and a set of experimental mictoTower II clone with CHBWeN and ERT26eN with a thisshould keep the tweetes safe cap XO.
dave
Follow up questions, for those with patience.
Thank you all so much, and the people I called whose time I wasted! I'm confused at a much higher level. I suspect now that higher quality everything really helps, more than tweaking the cabinet. I kind of knew that. I have replaced my USB line (faint but distinct improvement). Pondering speaker cables (I used to be able to hear the difference with hand-braided cables, when my ears were still really really good).
System: Various computers and a smart TV as streaming sources, plus a CD player. Sent to amps by optical or USB. Amps are HTA20 and HTA100. No separate better DAC. I have no idea how good the DACs in the HTA stuff are. Worth getting a better one? Not too pricy suggestion?
I can build and fit any of the Pensil, but they're a bit bulky relatively speaking. They aren't as cool and weird as I'd like, but I can get over that.
I like the compactness of the micro-tower 1/2 tower ML-TL
Would the Pensil prove "better" than the smaller micro-tower, or easier to get working well?
I can easily fit a wide range of sealed and vented boxes. Do the tall floor cabinets offer more performance considering I have an active 10" subwoofer that's OK? If a smaller box cabinet will be as good or better, is sealed or vented superior in general?
Driver recommendation for clarity, imaging, soundstage appropriate for female vocals, chamber music, piano, mellower jazz, with only a little classic rock slipped in. I mainly looked at Mark Audio drivers because they are pretty and get nice reviews, and link to plans. First, I could spring for and just fit the Alpair 11 MS or Pluvia 11, and can just barely make a larger cabinet fit. Would that be audibly "better"?
On 4" nominal drivers, I listened to various tests, and didn't find the CH series from Mark Audio as nice as the Pluvia and Alpair. The Pluvia 70PHD and 7.2 HD hit a reasonable price point for me. But if the Alpair 7 MS or the larger A11MS or P11 offer distinct advantages, I could spring for those and accommodate the larger boxes. I am very willing to consider other drivers, and have been impressed with others on listening tests in this forum, such as e https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...l-Range-Paper-Cone-Woofer-264-1062?quantity=1
Thanks for suggestions, and especially for heading off any interesting but less-effective or unnecessary diversions in this and other threads. Such as mass-loaded folded Voigts and such, although they look wonderful inside.
Thank you all so much, and the people I called whose time I wasted! I'm confused at a much higher level. I suspect now that higher quality everything really helps, more than tweaking the cabinet. I kind of knew that. I have replaced my USB line (faint but distinct improvement). Pondering speaker cables (I used to be able to hear the difference with hand-braided cables, when my ears were still really really good).
System: Various computers and a smart TV as streaming sources, plus a CD player. Sent to amps by optical or USB. Amps are HTA20 and HTA100. No separate better DAC. I have no idea how good the DACs in the HTA stuff are. Worth getting a better one? Not too pricy suggestion?
I can build and fit any of the Pensil, but they're a bit bulky relatively speaking. They aren't as cool and weird as I'd like, but I can get over that.
I like the compactness of the micro-tower 1/2 tower ML-TL
Would the Pensil prove "better" than the smaller micro-tower, or easier to get working well?
I can easily fit a wide range of sealed and vented boxes. Do the tall floor cabinets offer more performance considering I have an active 10" subwoofer that's OK? If a smaller box cabinet will be as good or better, is sealed or vented superior in general?
Driver recommendation for clarity, imaging, soundstage appropriate for female vocals, chamber music, piano, mellower jazz, with only a little classic rock slipped in. I mainly looked at Mark Audio drivers because they are pretty and get nice reviews, and link to plans. First, I could spring for and just fit the Alpair 11 MS or Pluvia 11, and can just barely make a larger cabinet fit. Would that be audibly "better"?
On 4" nominal drivers, I listened to various tests, and didn't find the CH series from Mark Audio as nice as the Pluvia and Alpair. The Pluvia 70PHD and 7.2 HD hit a reasonable price point for me. But if the Alpair 7 MS or the larger A11MS or P11 offer distinct advantages, I could spring for those and accommodate the larger boxes. I am very willing to consider other drivers, and have been impressed with others on listening tests in this forum, such as e https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...l-Range-Paper-Cone-Woofer-264-1062?quantity=1
Thanks for suggestions, and especially for heading off any interesting but less-effective or unnecessary diversions in this and other threads. Such as mass-loaded folded Voigts and such, although they look wonderful inside.
The P7HD or Alpair 7ms for me. Both use the ame size box. The P7PHD has the “japanese” voicing, exaggerated midband.
Sealed won’t reachj low enuff to meet the weather, Vented could. The tall boxes use quarterwave resoances to extend LFs.
dave
Sealed won’t reachj low enuff to meet the weather, Vented could. The tall boxes use quarterwave resoances to extend LFs.
dave
Thanks much. I've been wondering about the Alpair 7 MS and the Pluvia. Everything seems right about them. The 7MSnegative camber cone profile seems rather clever, if it does anything. I'll mock up the two Pensils, see how they'd actually fit in my room. Investigate those more thoroughly. If I like them a lot, I'll do FrugalHorns for my dad. He's using a 1980s B&O system that's warm and fuzzy, completely inoffensive, but like drinking flat soda without my glasses. Part of why my listening and lounging room is in the basement, away from those B&O playing tired old classical music and the news about 30% louder than I can handle!The P7HD or Alpair 7ms for me. Both use the ame size box. The P7PHD has the “japanese” voicing, exaggerated midband.
Sealed won’t reachj low enuff to meet the weather, Vented could. The tall boxes use quarterwave resoances to extend LFs.
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