I'm in the process of gathering material for an ELS project and came across this perforated plastic material:
Perforated material punched with round holes
It looks like it has a lot of potential for Stator panels. One side could be made conductive by spraying with automotive copper spray. Any opinions fron the experts on this forum?
Perforated material punched with round holes
It looks like it has a lot of potential for Stator panels. One side could be made conductive by spraying with automotive copper spray. Any opinions fron the experts on this forum?
It's even more challenging to coat PP in respect to PET (membrane)...
Second question would be dimensional stability
I have used a similar technique on my micro drivers using aluminium foil tape as the stator on some prepunched pc breadboard material and clear acrylic enamel as the stator coating.
I have considered this method in the past but I didn't have any luck finding a suitable perforated plastic material that was strong enough for a larger type panel that had a large area of openness.
A similar method was also described by one of the Peter's (it was either Baxandall or walker) when they first made their headphone units.
Alexburg is very correct about his points as I have researched this quite extensively but it was back in 2004 and a lot has changed since then as far as availability of different materials.
jer 🙂
P.S. Styrene would be a better choice if you could find it prepunched with some 5/32" holes.
I have considered this method in the past but I didn't have any luck finding a suitable perforated plastic material that was strong enough for a larger type panel that had a large area of openness.
A similar method was also described by one of the Peter's (it was either Baxandall or walker) when they first made their headphone units.
Alexburg is very correct about his points as I have researched this quite extensively but it was back in 2004 and a lot has changed since then as far as availability of different materials.
jer 🙂
P.S. Styrene would be a better choice if you could find it prepunched with some 5/32" holes.
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Assuming low or no daylight exposure and relatively low, room temperature, it seems reasonable to give it a try.
Polyolefins are prone to cold flow, so I would not use it as a part of load bearing panel structure.
You can't use then masterpieces developed by fellow DYIers with perf metal as a reference.
In respect to the PP painting/coating (real life experience 🙁)
Plastic Bumper Repair - Plastic Bumper Repair - How-To Center
3M Automix Polyolefin Adhesion Promoter 05907
Styrene is easily destroyed by most paints/thinners/solvents and quite brittle.
What about ABC/PVC plastic? Like McMaster-Carr
Polyolefins are prone to cold flow, so I would not use it as a part of load bearing panel structure.
You can't use then masterpieces developed by fellow DYIers with perf metal as a reference.
In respect to the PP painting/coating (real life experience 🙁)
Plastic Bumper Repair - Plastic Bumper Repair - How-To Center
3M Automix Polyolefin Adhesion Promoter 05907
Styrene is easily destroyed by most paints/thinners/solvents and quite brittle.
What about ABC/PVC plastic? Like McMaster-Carr
The question really is, why?
What benefit does this afford?
How does it compare with ur basic powdercoated metal stator?
Wire stator?
_-_-bear
What benefit does this afford?
How does it compare with ur basic powdercoated metal stator?
Wire stator?
_-_-bear
Styrene light louvre material is really junk plastic which is loaded with high amounts of plastizer so the grids will not break when they are ejected from the molds. They use regrind and the actual plastic consistancy will vary greatly form piece to piece. That said it is strong (enough) and easy to work with takes paint and glue (there are adhesive issues) though solvent welding is the best method to insure long time joint strength. Acoustat used styrene light louvre to good effect and with proper care and handling will last a good long time.
You also have to take into account the plastic is in close proximity to highly charged air and there is a very small quantity of ozone produce by the speaker which you should know eats everything. Acoustats can be run all day every day for about fifteen years before any significant degridation starts to appear. There are very many Acoustats out there which are 30 years old and still functioning, not as well as new mind you but running all the same. I think that for diy applications the styrene grid louver offers an inexpensive easy to work with base upon which to build esl panels be they perforated metal or tensioned wire as the grid structure adds both strengtrh and damping. While available in half inch (as used by Acoustat) and three eights thickness I prefer the three eights thick material as it minimises the tunnel length presented to the air flow off the diaphragm.
Light louvres are available made from acrylic which is in every way superior to styrene but in most cases is not normally stocked by suppliers due to cost. I think a general expected life span of fifteen very good years and an additional possible fifteen is more than reasonable for diy builds. I dont think I have gone more that three to five years without wanting to change a design anyway. Wire stators offer the highest quality and highest consistency of dielectric of any method of build I can think of.
All methods of construction come with their own issues and special requirements. It will depend upon the builders skills knowledge and tools at hand to determine which method best suits them or a given project. HI tech solutions to design problems almost always come with hi tech problems you must solve. Take for example the Quad 63 which was at the time an ultra hi tech esl design. They have a hord of construction problems and quality issues and even after a multi year re design are in my estimation still problematic. Comepare the Quad to the ultra simple Acoustat andy you have your proof in decades of trouble free service. Now I am not saying ther are not old Quads out there still playing music because there are, what I am saying is that no other commercial panel has near the track record of the Acoustat. So as I see it if you want a superb esl which will last a life time look to build a better Acoustat.
The other single biggest issue that I see with esl speakers is that manufacturers and diyèrs alike persist in designing full range panels. I believe the compromises required to achieve substantial bass output come at the expense of efficiency and dispersion and as such dimish the qualities most sought after in esl speakers. Dynamic driver make excellent bass inexpensivly and are simple to drive. Calvin can attest to what can be achieved with a good hybrid approach. ESL`s can make bass that is not the point here the point is they are by no means the best option for making bass. The direct radiator cone woofer is the king of that castle in most every way.
Use the technology at hand that meets your requirements best and that gets the job done. Simplicity is perhaps the most difficult thing to achieve and the devil as always lies in the details. Best regards Moray James.
You also have to take into account the plastic is in close proximity to highly charged air and there is a very small quantity of ozone produce by the speaker which you should know eats everything. Acoustats can be run all day every day for about fifteen years before any significant degridation starts to appear. There are very many Acoustats out there which are 30 years old and still functioning, not as well as new mind you but running all the same. I think that for diy applications the styrene grid louver offers an inexpensive easy to work with base upon which to build esl panels be they perforated metal or tensioned wire as the grid structure adds both strengtrh and damping. While available in half inch (as used by Acoustat) and three eights thickness I prefer the three eights thick material as it minimises the tunnel length presented to the air flow off the diaphragm.
Light louvres are available made from acrylic which is in every way superior to styrene but in most cases is not normally stocked by suppliers due to cost. I think a general expected life span of fifteen very good years and an additional possible fifteen is more than reasonable for diy builds. I dont think I have gone more that three to five years without wanting to change a design anyway. Wire stators offer the highest quality and highest consistency of dielectric of any method of build I can think of.
All methods of construction come with their own issues and special requirements. It will depend upon the builders skills knowledge and tools at hand to determine which method best suits them or a given project. HI tech solutions to design problems almost always come with hi tech problems you must solve. Take for example the Quad 63 which was at the time an ultra hi tech esl design. They have a hord of construction problems and quality issues and even after a multi year re design are in my estimation still problematic. Comepare the Quad to the ultra simple Acoustat andy you have your proof in decades of trouble free service. Now I am not saying ther are not old Quads out there still playing music because there are, what I am saying is that no other commercial panel has near the track record of the Acoustat. So as I see it if you want a superb esl which will last a life time look to build a better Acoustat.
The other single biggest issue that I see with esl speakers is that manufacturers and diyèrs alike persist in designing full range panels. I believe the compromises required to achieve substantial bass output come at the expense of efficiency and dispersion and as such dimish the qualities most sought after in esl speakers. Dynamic driver make excellent bass inexpensivly and are simple to drive. Calvin can attest to what can be achieved with a good hybrid approach. ESL`s can make bass that is not the point here the point is they are by no means the best option for making bass. The direct radiator cone woofer is the king of that castle in most every way.
Use the technology at hand that meets your requirements best and that gets the job done. Simplicity is perhaps the most difficult thing to achieve and the devil as always lies in the details. Best regards Moray James.
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best type of panel
hi
i believe that every type of panel has a specific voice.
i collect esl speakers and have accumulated data on many panel types.
while i agree with morey james on the robustness of the acoustat.
i believe the acoustat panel lacks transparency
I have owned many acoustat speakers along with their direct drive amps .
i did a test with the acoustat DD amp using both the 8 and 9 inch panels
along with 8 inch panels modified by roger west using the copper ring and 2 micron
diaphrams, they all sounded great and the 2 micron panels being more transparent
as well as more highs, so i thought what if i ran a martin logan cls 2Z panel.
i was astonished at the magnitude of improvement by the ml panel.
so i decided to test some of my panels from many manufacturers.
i built a jig with a esl transformer and bias supply and limited the response to
350 hz. the result was the most transparent panel was the innersound eros 3.5
a fiberglass panel with vertical slits.followed by the new type of ml panel
and a bunch in between .the second from the last was the 2 micron acoustat
panel which was tied with the final .3 panel and dead last was the stock acoustat
panel .
so there is no one best type each has its own voice so experiment.
also a few esl speakers used plastic stators eg quad 57,dayton wright
hi
i believe that every type of panel has a specific voice.
i collect esl speakers and have accumulated data on many panel types.
while i agree with morey james on the robustness of the acoustat.
i believe the acoustat panel lacks transparency
I have owned many acoustat speakers along with their direct drive amps .
i did a test with the acoustat DD amp using both the 8 and 9 inch panels
along with 8 inch panels modified by roger west using the copper ring and 2 micron
diaphrams, they all sounded great and the 2 micron panels being more transparent
as well as more highs, so i thought what if i ran a martin logan cls 2Z panel.
i was astonished at the magnitude of improvement by the ml panel.
so i decided to test some of my panels from many manufacturers.
i built a jig with a esl transformer and bias supply and limited the response to
350 hz. the result was the most transparent panel was the innersound eros 3.5
a fiberglass panel with vertical slits.followed by the new type of ml panel
and a bunch in between .the second from the last was the 2 micron acoustat
panel which was tied with the final .3 panel and dead last was the stock acoustat
panel .
so there is no one best type each has its own voice so experiment.
also a few esl speakers used plastic stators eg quad 57,dayton wright
What can be added to the exemplary post by Moray James and teslaboys's comments? +1.
Seems to me, of all the challenges facing a builder, just finding a nice louver-like plastic structure jet-propels you past the worst challenges.
Dayton-Wright panels are fancy louvers, no doubt custom cast. Mike spray-painted conductive paint on the working edges and fastened pairs together (after putting some coated SaranWrap in the middle, of course).
These panels are roughly 8 x 16 inches and you just bolt together a bunch. He did it on the surface of a virtual sphere... no doubt patented the idea too.
There are, of course, other system issues that make it work for the Dayton-Wrights that may be different for you (like not having any spare sulfur-hexwhatsis gas around).
Ben
Seems to me, of all the challenges facing a builder, just finding a nice louver-like plastic structure jet-propels you past the worst challenges.
Dayton-Wright panels are fancy louvers, no doubt custom cast. Mike spray-painted conductive paint on the working edges and fastened pairs together (after putting some coated SaranWrap in the middle, of course).
These panels are roughly 8 x 16 inches and you just bolt together a bunch. He did it on the surface of a virtual sphere... no doubt patented the idea too.
There are, of course, other system issues that make it work for the Dayton-Wrights that may be different for you (like not having any spare sulfur-hexwhatsis gas around).
Ben
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Just another 2-cents to add.
I think there is some excessive exuberance about rigidity in woofer cabinets (for non-sealed boxes). But a lack of care for rigidity on largish ESL panels...maybe because we don't spend much time with our palms on them feeling for vibration.
This may account for some sound anomalies with some ESLs.
With plastic panels, you can have some depth leading to strong girder strength that is not as easy to achieve with welding rods, large thin sheets of metal, and other common methods.
Ben
I think there is some excessive exuberance about rigidity in woofer cabinets (for non-sealed boxes). But a lack of care for rigidity on largish ESL panels...maybe because we don't spend much time with our palms on them feeling for vibration.
This may account for some sound anomalies with some ESLs.
With plastic panels, you can have some depth leading to strong girder strength that is not as easy to achieve with welding rods, large thin sheets of metal, and other common methods.
Ben
What i find is that the Acoustat is on it own,like the 57 an its dust cover thay wish it was only,till you make a panel that is in the free air like the acoustats,like 9"w44"L or 80"L not much is going give better sound.
It the Bias on the Acoustat, low most of the time an the way the inter-face is setup that rolls off the highs. In the 80s i got in to the AcoustatXs an have not been abel to get out of this ESL panel . I got out of the X tube amps.Moray knows how much time i have put in to others panels but , If setup right thay Can kill all others.I would like to move on but when you split the panel up an tie it down it loses the trick that jim new.funny no one dose this? I now have a pr of 3s set up with Just T2 in no caps no res. an i am driving them with a 60w tube amp, i say there not much there 50hz down but i have two subs an it is sweet.go figg.Moray knows the SE T2 setup i have not push-pull an it gives 3db more output,this makes the diff.
Just my 2cent
It the Bias on the Acoustat, low most of the time an the way the inter-face is setup that rolls off the highs. In the 80s i got in to the AcoustatXs an have not been abel to get out of this ESL panel . I got out of the X tube amps.Moray knows how much time i have put in to others panels but , If setup right thay Can kill all others.I would like to move on but when you split the panel up an tie it down it loses the trick that jim new.funny no one dose this? I now have a pr of 3s set up with Just T2 in no caps no res. an i am driving them with a 60w tube amp, i say there not much there 50hz down but i have two subs an it is sweet.go figg.Moray knows the SE T2 setup i have not push-pull an it gives 3db more output,this makes the diff.
Just my 2cent
Quote`I would like to move on but when you split the panel up an tie it down it loses the trick that jim new.funny no one dose this? `
Allen can you comment further on this? Not quite 100% sure I follow. My brain is scattered today. Best regards Moray James.
Allen can you comment further on this? Not quite 100% sure I follow. My brain is scattered today. Best regards Moray James.
Moray
I gess the ezest way it to say is that the Acoustat 9"wpanel can move more air!
An this works well with the air in the room,not even the MLCLs can even get close.The SoundLabs well but like the stock 121, suck power out of my life.
I now have went to two T2s with each pr of 3s, just like the CLS2-z an it rocks.
No caps no res.so far lot ezer to drive with 60watt tube amp.More output than the CLSs. Funny just when you think Your at the top, a new way is just siting there, i well say most dont have 5-6 t2.But looks like the t1 is out, do you have Acoustat121 tranfourmers setups?
Thanks for your time
I gess the ezest way it to say is that the Acoustat 9"wpanel can move more air!
An this works well with the air in the room,not even the MLCLs can even get close.The SoundLabs well but like the stock 121, suck power out of my life.
I now have went to two T2s with each pr of 3s, just like the CLS2-z an it rocks.
No caps no res.so far lot ezer to drive with 60watt tube amp.More output than the CLSs. Funny just when you think Your at the top, a new way is just siting there, i well say most dont have 5-6 t2.But looks like the t1 is out, do you have Acoustat121 tranfourmers setups?
Thanks for your time
Quad57
I think not, here is One of the bass panel,i dont think the 57 well work without the so called dustcover?The tweeter is the same just smaller.All the sound of one of the best speaker ever made has a wide open dyafram called a dust cover.Fits the ear like a glove,an i say make the speaker!
Why others have not done this to any ESL like say a Acoustat,or one you may Diy i dont get.Anyone?
Thanks
I think not, here is One of the bass panel,i dont think the 57 well work without the so called dustcover?The tweeter is the same just smaller.All the sound of one of the best speaker ever made has a wide open dyafram called a dust cover.Fits the ear like a glove,an i say make the speaker!
Why others have not done this to any ESL like say a Acoustat,or one you may Diy i dont get.Anyone?
Thanks
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I made an ESL using D-W panels with no "dry cleaners bag" on them and compared to the factory units with the bag and gas, seem to have a veil lifted. I could be mistaken since there is an obvious difference in what a person might expect to hear.
The D-W panels have quite wide spacing and so dust is not an issue with the bag absent. One more reason to favour wide spacing.
Ben
The D-W panels have quite wide spacing and so dust is not an issue with the bag absent. One more reason to favour wide spacing.
Ben
Quad added the dust cover because for this speaker, the way it was build, a dust cover is mandatory. Not so much (although there would be similar benefits) for other designs. It solves the problem of dirt, dust, insects etc. getting into the speaker.
Peter Walker once held a piece of stretched mylar in front of his mouth during lecture to demonstrate that it does not chance the sound. In reality, the way it is used in the speaker as a dust cover, it does.
Why not use a dust cover?
* it has distinct resonances that color the sound
* they can produce rattles and buzzing
* they are fragile
* it looks ugly (Quad speakers always have their internals shielded by metal covers, not so with most other electrostatic speakers)
* added complexity and cost
So if you can solve the problem of contaminants getting into the speaker in a different way then you don't need a dust cover.
I find that all things chang the sound.
When i got my frist pr of stock 57 it was a new day for the mid an topend for me.No way, there were people in the room with me,No other speaker had ever give so much, no matter what amp or sours.After time went by say 5 days this was in the 70s before subs were around for me anyway i new i wonted the sound but bass to.Not till i got the Acoustat Xs did get close to the sound of the 57.But as you may no the Xs or any thing that i have had has ever got the same sound As the 57s. So when i look at the 57 i see the way it fit the ear Has to do with the Dustcover an it in front of the ESL elament an can have high output.With out the dustcover on all others ESLs for me, the ear speaker is a mismatch.
thanks for your time
When i got my frist pr of stock 57 it was a new day for the mid an topend for me.No way, there were people in the room with me,No other speaker had ever give so much, no matter what amp or sours.After time went by say 5 days this was in the 70s before subs were around for me anyway i new i wonted the sound but bass to.Not till i got the Acoustat Xs did get close to the sound of the 57.But as you may no the Xs or any thing that i have had has ever got the same sound As the 57s. So when i look at the 57 i see the way it fit the ear Has to do with the Dustcover an it in front of the ESL elament an can have high output.With out the dustcover on all others ESLs for me, the ear speaker is a mismatch.
thanks for your time
57 with dust cover has "400,000" balance. Add a sub and remove the dust cover and it might still have balance... but possibly not one without the other.
Ben
Ben
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