Pioneer SA-8800 Transistor Needed

anatech

Administrator
Paid Member
2004-06-06 8:31 pm
Georgetown, On
You may as well throw the NTE transistors out without opening the package. I replace them as soon as I see them.

NTE parts are complete unknowns, and they are expensive. If I see them in a repair, my estimate includes replacing them. They are garbage parts and I am all too familiar with them. They will work in your circuit, but not great like the original. The 2SC2240 is an improvement over the 2SC1915. If this was 20 years ago, the 2SC1775A would have been the improved substitute by 1/2 a dB in noise over the 2SC2240. You would be further ahead with 2N3904 or 2N4401 transistors, except for the pinout would be wrong. You better check the NTE pinout isn't wrong as well. The 2SC parts have collectors in the center, US parts have the base in the center.

What you need are some 2SC2240. They are quieter and designed for low level amplification.

-Chris
 
I don't like NTE, but not because they won't work. But they do cost three to ten times as much as real parts. That is a lot to pay for a poly bag with the part number. For individual parts, they usually work OK, where they fail is in a row of power transistors. If you replace the entire row with them they likely work, but if you mix one of them with say Motorola somethings, they won't share current well.
 
I don't like NTE, but not because they won't work. But they do cost three to ten times as much as real parts. That is a lot to pay for a poly bag with the part number. For individual parts, they usually work OK, where they fail is in a row of power transistors. If you replace the entire row with them they likely work, but if you mix one of them with say Motorola somethings, they won't share current well.


Well Enzo, I suppose if you are needing the parts for your own, or a DIY'er, I guess the price of NTE doesn't suit you.
As for me, and being in the service business, I don't worry about parts prices, because that is something I include in the service billing - the customer pays it.


And if replacing output transistors, matching is pretty much mandatory, always was, and still is - it's the only way to do proper repairs on amplifiers.
 

anatech

Administrator
Paid Member
2004-06-06 8:31 pm
Georgetown, On
Hi wiseoldtech,
Maybe harsh, but for very good reason. NTE seems to work okay most of the time for TV guys, but certainly not for audio service. For one, you have zero idea what that part is really, and you can't match them well for the simple reason that you don't always get the same transistor before they erase the markings and put their own number on it. You may get a match at a certain current level, but since they could be totally different original parts they won't track well. Then there is the question of complimentary parts. Sure, they list them as complimentary, but the other transistors may not be proper compliments - never mind even the same transistor.

I have had a high number of repairs with NTE parts that had weird faults, and I learned to test the NTE parts first, and was very often rewarded by finding the problem part right away. This includes blown outputs, noisy amplifiers and other faults similar to this. The only time I will use an NTE part is when the original part is NLA and there is no substitute. This usually means a specialized IC, like an MPX decoder. The only reason I will use an NTE there is because they pretty much have to use the real part.

Price. Well, because I am spending my client's money, I do care how much the part costs within reason. I won't risk finding a less expensive part for quality. I'll pay the proper going rate for parts, but I won't over pay and that is exactly what you are doing by supplying an NTE part.

When I recommend a shop for anyone who asks, one of the things I tell them is to look around to see if they see any ECG / NTE or other replacement brands, turn around, walk out and never come back.

wiseoldtech, while you may be different than most of the folks I know of that do use NTE parts, the vast majority of NTE users simply don't understand how things work and how to fix them properly.

No offense intended here.

-Chris
 

david007

Member
2020-01-11 9:23 am
I've also sent in a request to Pioneer for these transistors. If the price is reasonable, I'll go ahead and purchase some from them. The NTE's cost is only $1.59 so it's not like I've spent a fortune. I'll let you all know how this turns out in the end. Thanks for all the good advice...
 
I've also sent in a request to Pioneer for these transistors. If the price is reasonable, I'll go ahead and purchase some from them. The NTE's cost is only $1.59 so it's not like I've spent a fortune. I'll let you all know how this turns out in the end. Thanks for all the good advice...


You "sent a request" to (present day) Pioneer?
For parts for a 1970's amplifier?

Sorry, but I gotta laugh at that one.


Those people working at that place wern't even born yet, and would likely not even know what an amplifier was, much less what a (2S)C915 transistor is.


Anyone, asking for help or parts for something "obsolete" from a present-day company is just wasting their time.
 
I made my living for three decades servicing pro audio, and parts prices do concern me. A power transistor might cost me $4 at Mouser, the NTE version costing $12-15. If I need eight of them, the difference between $32 and $96 is considerable, especially after retail markup. A $60 parts bill versus a $200 parts bill is often enough to estimate myself out of a repair.
 
I can't ever recall paying $12-15 for a power output transistor from ECG/NTE.
Maybe those prices are current ones for the T03 style, I dunno.
At the shop we dealt with a local "ECG" distributor who catered to us repair shops here.


I do know that certain germanium P/Os are high, but if someone wants a 1960's unit done, they know ahead of time what they're walking into.
The cost of living and current wages are not controllable by us, if we're to survive in business.


My "restoration services" for other things like a 1940's floor radio can run from $350-600 sometimes, but it's a lot of tedious work and researching parts.
The customer is always told this beforehand.
But in the end, they always get what they paid for - professional service.
 
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anatech

Administrator
Paid Member
2004-06-06 8:31 pm
Georgetown, On
Hi David,
Just get some 2SC2240 transistors. They are an improved substitute with the same pinout. Still current would be KSC1845, which would do well in that application. The Digikey link is : KSC1845FTACT-ND at $ 0.44 each CAN, less in USD. Digikey can get them to you in a day I bet. I get things in one day and I'm in Canada. I'm sure Mouser and others have the part which is made by On-Semi these days.

-Chris
 

david007

Member
2020-01-11 9:23 am
I'm not in "the business" anymore so a buck here or there doesn't make any difference. I'll probably never have to service this radio again. It's been running flawlessly after the first set of repairs I made on it almost 14 years ago when I purchased it. I have a very good ear when it comes to audio so the final test will be comparing a mono audio recording on both left and right channels...
 
Up here in Canada it's unlawful to use used parts without the written consent of the person you are doing the repair for. The only time I have done this is when the only part available is used.

For me, it is much easier to use new parts and keep them on-hand.

-Chris


Wow Chris, that's strict!
Unlawful, eh?


Any "used" part that I "re-use" is of course tested for proper operation, compatability, or specs.
As for those "vintage" units like a 1940's radio, there simply is no "new" for those - you gotta use your resources that are available.
 

anatech

Administrator
Paid Member
2004-06-06 8:31 pm
Georgetown, On
Hi Mark,
Yes, obviously a transplant recipient knows his new to him (or her) organs were previously enjoyed. They sign enough waivers that I'd be surprised if that wasn't in there somewhere in some form. Until we can grow new organs I don't think that will be changed.

Hi wiseoldtech,
You haven't lived until you see a used 2SC1845 pulled from some piece of gear and sold as new with the full NTE list price. The customer is unlikely to be able to tell. Now, if the customer signed a waiver you could certainly harvest that same 2SC1845 and charge him the labour to remove that/those part(s). If you look at a car repair up here, the insurance company states in it's contract that it can use new, second source or refurbished parts. I agree with this law completely and have used controls and switches from other defunct equipment to fix a piece of audio gear. The last time I did that was for the rotary switches in a Revox A-77. I also cleaned and relubricated those switches before they went in. The customer was aware of the situation before hand and released us. My first choice is always a new part, original or substitute.

Hi David,
Your good ear doesn't apply to distortion unless it becomes really bad. People are lousy instruments, but they can compare quickly switched music sources with some degree of accuracy. You might be able to determine noise levels comparing against the other channel (assuming it is operating properly and to spec.) and things like tonal balance. But you can't determine things like distortion, ultrasonic oscillation or anything else along those lines unless there is a gross difference between the two channels. I've done this test many times over the years with musicians (orchestra mostly) and "golden ear" type folks. It is even more apparent when they bring in something they claim has a minor problem and we find big issues with the amplifier. They always protest, they come in and we show them. After the repair we hear they weren't aware they couldn't hear the problems. That's because sound quality deteriorates slowly over time, and they simply get used to it as it changes. That is how we humans react to our mostly stable environment

Over the course of a week, you can become aware of some problems or changes, but not in a quantitative way, but you will have a sense that you don't like or feel irritated. You simply won't be able to point at anything and state that the distortion is too high unless it is really bad.

-Best, Chris