Paypal

Hello everybody,

With my Aleph Ono project underway, I am investigating the best way to get my money here. I noticed most people here prefer payment using Paypal, and I would surely go for that option.

However, I like to be well informed when it comes about such a crucial thing as money transfer. I find the information that Paypal gives a bit brief and little explaining. Reading all horro stories on PayPal Warning , I find myself hestitating before signing up.

Is Paypal to be trusted? Will I get my money home (The Netherlands) without paying huge fees or using strange credit-card constructions?
How about this verification process that seems to be completed before I can make transfers?

How actually does Paypal WORK?? I want to receive a payment, what do I need to do to get it into my bank account?

Disturbed Regards

Bouke
 
Bouke,

i was using PayPal so far. There was a German website telling about the site owners problems with PayPal. Sounded like a low-tone distress individual to me.

I checked the the link you posted, that is a different show. Sound not like low-tone whining to me, sounds like a serious warning. I checked the info quite thoroughly, i tried to locate PayPay phone numbers, i waded thru the heaps of complaints.

So far, i did not transfer money from my PayPal account to my bank account. No idea if this works. I always used PayPal to pay via credit card and i spent payments i received via Paypal so far.

I am handling the maxon motor and MKV group purchase. If PayPal pulls the rug like it seems to have done with so many others .. :confused:
Guess i am not going to find out the hard way and with $2000 on my PayPal account if the money is transferable to my private bank account. Guess i cannot afford to find out the hard way.

It is a good practice to vote with your feet if a bank-like structure shows even the faintest trace of fraudulent tendencies.

Hmmh, i observed that fellow moderator planet10 refuses PayPal payment for his eBay auctions.

Dave,
any comments?
 
I would be careful about Paypal

If you read very carefully the terms of the Paypal user agreements there are several things to make a thoughtful prudent person not use them.

I'm not sure of recent changes, etc.

I think I would look into it with a skeptical manner before using them.

Later

Ken L
 
ive used it for about 3 years now, with no problems. however, like Bill, i have yet to have anyone contest anything yet. my old roommate however did have problems. basically, CYA. if you ship ANYTHING, track it. if ANYTHING is shipped to you, have it tracked. as long as you use a tracking number, or some sort of receipt that items were sent/received, you should be fine. but NEVER use paypal and just send something by USPS without a trace, or just in an envelope... the other party can file a claim, and paypal will just bill you. but all in all, its pretty decent for what it is.
 
I used PayPal for several years with no problems. I got in before all of the credit card + bank account + etc. verification, and all was cool until I had a payment returned to me. It turns out that as of recently, paypal sends the payment with a note urging the recipient to REJECT the payment because the sender is not "verified" (this after dozens of successful transactions. Be aware that this note comes when the money is already safely in the recipients bank account.

I looked at the process to get verified, and found it intimidating and rather invasive. I have since stopped using them. Paypal was not helpful when I complained about the treatment, either. Their only response was to get verified or expect more of the same.

Good riddance, but unfortunately there are few options for online payments.

Dan
 
All,
still making up my mind on PayPal.

Alternatives can be found at http://www.paypalwarning.com/Alternatives/Default.htm

I checked out www.anypay.com today; it is a German company and seems to work similar to PayPay but using int'l bank2bank money transfer (simply unaffordable outside anypay.com) with very reasonable fees. They do not act as a bank like paypal, they simply transfer the money from e.g account UK to account GER ot AUS or USA.

As i live in Germany, i guess i will give them a try, also for the group purchase. Allthemore as i am very pleased about the transparency displayed on this site.
As i understood it, anyone with an email adress and a bank account aywhere in the world can use it. Their website is avaiblable in English.
 
I second the option for Anypay. To me, it appears as a business that wants to be clear and serious.

Tomorrow I will go to my bank office and ask them if they know more about international money transfers, and if they are known with these intermediates.

Bouke

PS: A few minutes ago I posted the full terms of agreement of Anypay in english here. That is not really interesting I guess. If you want to read them, use the altavista babelfish translator to translate the page.
 

roddyama

Ex-Moderator
2002-01-19 9:25 am
Michigan
I've used PayPal for 3 years now and have been verified for the past 2 years. I have heard of some negative experiences, but I have not had a single bad experience in over 100 transactions. Money takes 3 or 4 days to move in and out of my bank account (I started a separate checking account for PayPal, BidPay, and the now defunct Billpoint. PayPal has been, by far the easiest and most convenient. It is also nice to have some available cash for projects when the wife does the home finances.:nod:

I have had transactions around the world, including Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, France,… This has been my experience, but you guys have to make your own decision in this matter.

Rodd Yamashita
 
I would never take PayPal casually. In our eBay business, we do not do PayPal. There are a number of reasons:

It is sometimes very hard to get your money from them into your bank account if you are not in the US. And the fees & exchange rates can be quite onerous (perhaps not quite so bad now). PayPal likes you to just spend the money in your PayPal account.

PayPal is acting like a bank, but isn't a bank, and not subject to the rules banks are. This is scary. I believe there are a couple pending lawsuits wrt this.

We have had a statistically small, but still scary number of clients, who have had to cancel credit cards, used only for PayPal, because unauthorized payments started showing up.

On the other hand, I do have a PayPal account that i use for collecting donations for my transmission line speaker web site (please see this thread ). Then i just pay my ISP with PayPal. I haven't had to try to get money out yet.

Hopefully when eBay completes their takeover, they will get the details straightened out, because the concept is very good.

dave
 
Dave,
thanxalot, just what i expected.
PayPal it out for me.

I will give AnyPay a try, i like their transparency and they are located in the same legal location as i am.
Imagine, they have company adress, phone numbers, even names and personal pixes of CEO and owner on their website.
Should i have a struggle with them i can call German bank supervision and if this fails i even call the local semi-legal :mafioso: collection agency and give them the pixes and names and say to them, "bring my money back, you get 30%" or whatever they ask. Suits me.
But my experinece is: Having business with such open, claen, high-tone, transparent guys never ends in struggle needing external arbitration. I will never have to call the Mafia for help.

Another option i have investigated (i do not necessarily stay in Germany, founding an own business in Germany of today is one of the most stupid things one can do; i am a patriot but i wonder if i am that biteproof as a patriot to found my business here) is www.e-gold.com i found the link on the Anypay-website. I liked the concept having local-currency-independent precious metal as currency. But within more than 30 minutes of crawling thru their site, i was unable to find out where they are located, which country's laws apply, which banking supervision is in charge, who owns that company, whom to phone with problems. Not even an email adress. And who and where the heck is G&SR??? As transparent as PayPal. OUT! for me.

I give Anypay a try. I hope they remove this e-gold link.
 
All,
today i wanted to process a $7 payment via PayPal to pay a German seller for an eBay auction.

PayPal would not process my payment until i wrote the message to the German seller in English language. No that they specified the error, they just kept refusing to continue the transaction until i finally had the :idea: to reword my message to the payment receiver in English.

German members, do you remember this weird movie scene displaying a person having interrupted his phone calls by the operator in WWII Nazi-occupied France because foreign language was used?

Dunno which movie that was, maybe Fred Dieckmann knows? but I felt the same way. Supervised. Mistrusted. Big Brother is watching me. :scared:

Sorry folks, not the spirit i am compatible with. I intend to use up my PayPal money and quit then. :grumpy:
 
dice45 said:
Another option i have investigated (i do not necessarily stay in Germany, founding an own business in Germany of today is one of the most stupid things one can do; i am a patriot but i wonder if i am that biteproof as a patriot to found my business here) is www.e-gold.com i found the link on the Anypay-website. I liked the concept having local-currency-independent precious metal as currency. But within more than 30 minutes of crawling thru their site, i was unable to find out where they are located, which country's laws apply, which banking supervision is in charge, who owns that company, whom to phone with problems. Not even an email adress. And who and where the heck is G&SR??? As transparent as PayPal. OUT! for me.

I give Anypay a try. I hope they remove this e-gold link. [/B]

You should have looked harder ;) I found the following info on E-gold (took me about 15 minutes ;P ):

- G&SR stands for "Gold & Silver Reserve"
- emails can be sent to: [email protected]
- The company appears to be housed in the USA
- It can be reached by phone: +1 800-909-6590 (USA) or +1 321-956-1200 (worldwide) or fax at +1 321-951-0790.

They also posted a "Declaration of Trust" signed by an attorney. This attorney has a name and an address: MELLO, HOLLIS, JONES & MARTIN, BARRISTERS & ATTORNEYS "REID HOUSE",
31 CHURCH STREET, HAMILTON, BERMUDA.

(As I writ this post I am digging deeper into the e-gold website, it is at least 15 minutes later...)
While reading their "Escrow Agent Agreement", I find the following names and addresses:

Trust contact information:
Hildeberto S. De Frias, Trustee
Michael J. Mello, Trustee
Mello, Jones and Martin
Reid House, 31 Church Street
Hamilton, HM 12, Bermuda
(441) 292‑1345
(441) 296‑4172 FAX
[email protected]

e‑gold Ltd. contact information:
Office of the Shareholder (Acting Chairman)
Hildeberto S. De Frias
Mello, Jones and Martin
Reid House, 31 Church Street
Hamilton, HM 12, Bermuda
(441) 292‑1345
(441) 296‑4172 FAX
[email protected]

Escrow Agent contact information:
James E. Baker, Jr. or Daryl J. Sidle
Baxter, Baker, Sidle, Conn & Jones, P.A.
120 E. Baltimore Street
Suite 2100
Baltimore, Maryland 21202-1643
(410) 230-3800
(410) 230-3801 FAX
[email protected] or [email protected]

Ok.. so that's about all I can dig up for e-gold. But there's more to find out: Who is this G&SR? I did a Google search and landed in a G&SR/Omnipay User Agreement ... In the first place, Omnipay appears to be something like a sister company from e-gold. You need an e-gold account to use OmniPay. Second, the agreement states: “G&SR” means Gold & Silver Reserve, Inc., a Delaware (USA) corporation.

Sooo... the trail lead to the "Delaware corporation"... And there it ends... This Delaware corporation is too big to find the G&SR back, so I can't confirm this incorporation. You can try to contact the Delaware corporation however:
Global Corporate Services, Inc.
709 Woodside Avenue
Wilmington, DE 19809
(800) 219-9359 toll free
(954) 796-0808 telephone
(703) 995-0899 fax
[email protected]

And there ends my search....

It took me more than an hour after all... but. What do we know now? Nothing really, and not the least: I still don't know if you can trust e-gold, or any other affiliate from the G&SR. That makes it a bad option in my eyes....

I am going to do a similar search for Anypay now.

Bouke
 
Hello everyone,

I figured that I'd toss my comments in here...

First, I have been using PayPal since the beginning and have had NO problems. I also am a verified member and highly recommend it (it's the only way they will let you move large sums of money).

I have moved literally 10's of thousands of dollars through my account. The transactions have always been correct and without incident. It takes ~3 days for them to deposit into my checking account when I request it. I always deposit back into my bank account and don't leave $$$ sitting in the PayPal account as a rule...

I will state that I live in the USA so that might make a bit of a difference...

I believe I've read somewhere that PayPal processes ~10 million transactions a month. Not all of those are going to go smoothly and I feel it's an unreasonable expectation that there be no complaints against a company of this size... As I stated above, my experience has been very good...

Why not try a small transaction through your account to see how it works?

International information can be found here:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_help-ext&eloc=0&loc=183

Finally, I would stay away from the smaller companies in general. I would especially avoid the Bermuda corporation mentioned above. They are incorporated in Bermuda because there are few to no banking regulations and there is no recourse if you have a problem with them...

(and no, I don't have any affiliation with PayPal...)

Bouke - I'd be happy to forward you funds for the boards as a test if you'd like...just let me know.

Just my thoughts...

Good luck,
 
Bouke,
my respect :up:

I expressed myself unclear, i only looked at the e-gold website, i did not even try to google around. IMO such vital info as a complaint email adress and something like an impressum telling who is responsible has to be located on the very website i am expected to trust my money with. And THEN i may go and google the web for backupping this info. :)

Nevertheless, further investigating e-gold maybe worthwile. I still like the idea of having a currency-independent way to stash money away and use it for transactions.
 
Apogee,

It's not nessecary to send money now. The offer is very kind of you though. Thank you for that. :)

I will give PayPal another good lookover. The problem I am facing actually, is that I have to deal with companies abroad (There aren't any e-pay companies in The Netherlands). In the first place, this brings extra costs for me. Because in the end, I still need to transfer the money to my bank account, from abroad. Second, if I deal with companies in foreign countries, I get to deal with legal rights specific for that country. If something goes wrong, I don't have anything to hold on to, and I just lose my money. If I would really want it back, I would have to call in a jurist. And they cost a LOT of money.

So... Knowing where I stand, I need to be *very* cautious with whom I do business with.
 
I use Paypal since almost 2 years now and without any problem. In total I had several dozens of transactions and moved a couple of 1000`s $$ around the world already.
I even received payments through them and it was no problem at all to transfer (withdraw) $$ from my Paypal account to my German bank account in Euros. But one thing is to take into account when transfering money from Paypal to a non-US-bank account and for currency other than US$: the exchange rate is really bad (though not worse as in general when exchanging currencies at a bank).
Additionally my bank charge me about 3 Euros for receiving electronic funds from my Paypal account and Paypal charges Euro 1,75 withdrawal fee per transaction.
Sending payments is actually free of charge and that`s a great thing!
Another thing to mention: the service staff from Paypal reacts really very fast on individual questions.