^ All true
I lost track of when RN left and it became AMS-Neve. I do know for a fact that he was a consultant during the design of the 5534 and 5532, and that there is plenty of evidence (as shown by G Tanner in above link) to suggest that trained engineers from the likes of the BBC were just as happy, if not happier, with 5534s in their gear than anything that had come before.
My point isn't to get into Neve history (as I said before, there are plenty of people who worked at the firm who can write an accurate account), it's more to combat any dogma that you often see regarding discrete circuits having advantages over ICs. Even the firm who made the most famous discrete designs of all was quick to embrace ICs. I don't believe there is any evidence to prove discrete better, and I regard companies such as Burson as taking advantage of 'low information voters'.
NB - the AMS-Neve resissues didn't come out until numerous boutique firms such as BA had started to release clones, as well as rack issues of OG modules. AMS-Neve themselves were pretty slow on the uptake. Once the reissues were released, they have since done everything to consolidate their market position, including trademarking 'Marinair' (a firm that disappeared in the 70s I believe) and stamping on the transformers. If you want to give credit to the firm for using 2N3055s, just remember that they are driving these trademarked transformers, which could be made in China for all we know...(they were made by Carnhill in the UK, but now??)
Discrete is necessary if you can't find an IC to do the job in hand. It can be incredibly quiet (if you are prepared to parallel a lot of devices and go to elaborate lengths). It has its place. If anyone believes it to be inherently superior, then I suggest they stockpile 2n3055s and trademarked transformers.
I lost track of when RN left and it became AMS-Neve. I do know for a fact that he was a consultant during the design of the 5534 and 5532, and that there is plenty of evidence (as shown by G Tanner in above link) to suggest that trained engineers from the likes of the BBC were just as happy, if not happier, with 5534s in their gear than anything that had come before.
My point isn't to get into Neve history (as I said before, there are plenty of people who worked at the firm who can write an accurate account), it's more to combat any dogma that you often see regarding discrete circuits having advantages over ICs. Even the firm who made the most famous discrete designs of all was quick to embrace ICs. I don't believe there is any evidence to prove discrete better, and I regard companies such as Burson as taking advantage of 'low information voters'.
NB - the AMS-Neve resissues didn't come out until numerous boutique firms such as BA had started to release clones, as well as rack issues of OG modules. AMS-Neve themselves were pretty slow on the uptake. Once the reissues were released, they have since done everything to consolidate their market position, including trademarking 'Marinair' (a firm that disappeared in the 70s I believe) and stamping on the transformers. If you want to give credit to the firm for using 2N3055s, just remember that they are driving these trademarked transformers, which could be made in China for all we know...(they were made by Carnhill in the UK, but now??)
Discrete is necessary if you can't find an IC to do the job in hand. It can be incredibly quiet (if you are prepared to parallel a lot of devices and go to elaborate lengths). It has its place. If anyone believes it to be inherently superior, then I suggest they stockpile 2n3055s and trademarked transformers.
I agree. There is no 'better' to me, just different sound.
Neve was amused to see how the vintage units are revered. He wasn't into nostalgia at all and pursued a goal of 'transparent sound'. I wonder if he didn't used discrete aop for some RND consoles ( because of high voltage rails, like SPL did).
But standard products were full of 'regular' opamps without detriment to the sound.
Neve was amused to see how the vintage units are revered. He wasn't into nostalgia at all and pursued a goal of 'transparent sound'. I wonder if he didn't used discrete aop for some RND consoles ( because of high voltage rails, like SPL did).
But standard products were full of 'regular' opamps without detriment to the sound.
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Hey Anthoney,
Curious about your opamp configuration as I’ve experienced some scratchyness ( is that even a word, haha) in sound quality. IIRC you used the same adapter (Sparkfun) for an soic opamp. I couldn’t find an lm6171 in a dip package at the time. Of course it’s available now so I thought I’d give it a go except that does mean de soldering the sockets from the dac board which I’m a bit leary about. To easy to mess that pcb up. I’ll just have to cut the existing sockets out and just de solder the pins. Then I’m held to opamps in dip package only, hmmm
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Hope you’re doing ok
With regards to the extensive discussion of Neve console circuitry, most of the Neve flavor comes from the interstage coupling, input and output ransformers, as well as the EQ topology.
The Neve channel strip EQs had exceptional headroom and really could make the input source sound different in tonal balance without adding typical bad EQ artifacts or distortions. Its a bit like hearing the difference between higher end condenser mics - each has its own built in EQ curve but can't just be replicated by applying post EQ, otherwise it would be pointless to spend the money to buy some of these mics in question.
MCcartney's Tug of War album was recorded on Neve consol at Air studio in Monserrat and is a great example of this mentioned EQ magic I'm talking about. Its a very transparent recording with heavy EQ used everywhere. On a great audio system you don't really perceive how much EQ was actually used because it still has that transparency and smoothness despite the heavy EQ. Thats the Neve magic and why Martin wanted his consoles made to his specs using the older Neve design. Even the fully digital recorded Dire Straits Brothers in Arms album sounded quite palatable even with tons of top end sizzle cranked in to highlight all the subtle guutar and drum work. That album is very hard to listen to an a bad system, but can sound great on a really good signal chain. If they had used a different recording signal chain on that record, it would have never sounded that good with that much EQ applied.
The Neve channel strip EQs had exceptional headroom and really could make the input source sound different in tonal balance without adding typical bad EQ artifacts or distortions. Its a bit like hearing the difference between higher end condenser mics - each has its own built in EQ curve but can't just be replicated by applying post EQ, otherwise it would be pointless to spend the money to buy some of these mics in question.
MCcartney's Tug of War album was recorded on Neve consol at Air studio in Monserrat and is a great example of this mentioned EQ magic I'm talking about. Its a very transparent recording with heavy EQ used everywhere. On a great audio system you don't really perceive how much EQ was actually used because it still has that transparency and smoothness despite the heavy EQ. Thats the Neve magic and why Martin wanted his consoles made to his specs using the older Neve design. Even the fully digital recorded Dire Straits Brothers in Arms album sounded quite palatable even with tons of top end sizzle cranked in to highlight all the subtle guutar and drum work. That album is very hard to listen to an a bad system, but can sound great on a really good signal chain. If they had used a different recording signal chain on that record, it would have never sounded that good with that much EQ applied.
Hey sir, sorry for my late reply. I moved last month into a century home that's been vacant for a few years so lots of home renovation work to be done.
Have to apologize, offhand I do not recall the suffix. If I understand correctly, the different suffixes for the opa's usually pertain to specs like operating temperature and voltage offsets (or in other words you'd probably be fine with any suffix)
hope that helps
I agree. When people started using op amps in professional consoles, it became harder to differentiate a console from competitors just by the sound quality of the signal path. EQ has been the most important selling point for everyone, but in addition to that, Neve used transformer trying to retain the original "Neve" signature while SSL kept gaining a popularity with DBX VCA's coloration.
Hi Plasnu,
Well i disagree in op amp desks sounding the same: to had taking care of multipleAms/ Neve serie V( r and x) and SSL 4000 G and E they do sound different:
The SSL are more 'midrangey' and metallic than the V which have more lowend and are more mellower sounding overall. It probably comes down to mic input transformers... i'm not really sure.
I think the real main difference soundwize is into the eq: Ams/Neve's being constant Q ( as well as the G serie eq) and E are constant gain design.
This really does change the feel of it.
Ams/Neve used Vca too ( into compressor/limiter section). Not within the chanel path though, you are right.
Well i disagree in op amp desks sounding the same: to had taking care of multipleAms/ Neve serie V( r and x) and SSL 4000 G and E they do sound different:
The SSL are more 'midrangey' and metallic than the V which have more lowend and are more mellower sounding overall. It probably comes down to mic input transformers... i'm not really sure.
I think the real main difference soundwize is into the eq: Ams/Neve's being constant Q ( as well as the G serie eq) and E are constant gain design.
This really does change the feel of it.
Ams/Neve used Vca too ( into compressor/limiter section). Not within the chanel path though, you are right.
krivium, yep, this is exactly what I meant to say. Without some kind of coloration devices (transformer, VCA), it had become harder to make a difference because the opamp circuit itself is very similar. It's true that Ultimation SSL still sounds like SSL even without VCA, so I guess there should be some secret... I don't really know about Neve VR, but they are also built around 5534, right?