Hello all
I am thinking about making a sound bar type unit using three drivers only but still getting a stereo sound overall
I have a 10" driver with dual voice coils each 4R and a pair of 3" full range drivers that work happily when run in an active 2.1 setup. I would like to use these drivers with only a 2 channel amp and using a passive crossover on each voice coil of the woofer to run a full range
I have a two channel power amp board with a built-in mains power supply and has aux power outputs for preamps as well as fans. Insterested in making a custom tone control to control level matching between the drivers over using another amp to run them in 2.1
Most of the bass should come from the woofer so the passive crossover should be around 500hz
Is this kind of setup possible?
Opinions please 🙂
I am thinking about making a sound bar type unit using three drivers only but still getting a stereo sound overall
I have a 10" driver with dual voice coils each 4R and a pair of 3" full range drivers that work happily when run in an active 2.1 setup. I would like to use these drivers with only a 2 channel amp and using a passive crossover on each voice coil of the woofer to run a full range
I have a two channel power amp board with a built-in mains power supply and has aux power outputs for preamps as well as fans. Insterested in making a custom tone control to control level matching between the drivers over using another amp to run them in 2.1
Most of the bass should come from the woofer so the passive crossover should be around 500hz
Is this kind of setup possible?
Opinions please 🙂
Won't work.
Two voice coils, on the one driver, each given a different signal, each fighting for control of the one cone.
No.
Two voice coils, on the one driver, each given a different signal, each fighting for control of the one cone.
No.
It could work if you lower the crossover frequency. Say 100 to 120 Hz. Those coils will see almost identical signal.
Help me understand this please. Maybe I am making a silly presumption that as long as polarity is maintained, the driver should perform as a physical two channel mixer (each VC would be a physical channel). Is this really a different issue when compared to that same mix of instruments on one VC?
In other words, is sending a regular mix to a single VC driver different from separating the instruments and sending a different set to each VC of a dual VC driver?
I would do that but unfortunately the full range pair are not very good below 400 or so hertz while on the other hand the bass driver sounds great to over 1khz
In the case that I have the physics of this wrong, I may have another option
When I make the tone controls, I could possibly use a summing amp on the output of the low band then sending that as dual mono back to the stereo mix where it's combined with the still stereo output of the high band. Merits?
When I make the tone controls, I could possibly use a summing amp on the output of the low band then sending that as dual mono back to the stereo mix where it's combined with the still stereo output of the high band. Merits?
t will work and has been done before. But the XO has to move down. 400 Hz is too high.
The woofers have to be used only at LF (as adason suggests) where the 2 VC working together are a mono signal just like you would get if you took the high level signal and merged those before sending the same signal to the 2 VCs.
dave
It is possible.
This issue is dual voice coils distort at high bandwidth, so you can only good in 1 or two octave ranges. I would cross at 200-250 hz at the highest
Place those crappy pseudo fullrange drivers in trashbin. Any faital pro, 3" or 4" will make it easy to 100Hz and all the way up.
A left and a right bass signal that for the most part will have different levels and frequencies.
Two separate voice coils. Each receiving a different signal. Each connected to a different amplifier channel.
ONE magnetic 'motor' assembly.
A low frequency signal on one amplifier, will energise one voice coil. The driver will be expected to move an appropriate amount.
IF the other amplifier is generating a different signal to the second voice coil. The driver will be expected to move to this other drive signal.
What happens to the driver cone when the two voice coils, driven with different signals, that are physically mounted on the same former, within the same magnetic circuit.
Example, a track has music that has been engineered with reversed or out of phase signal to play on the humans psycho acoustical reception.
What happens with two voice coils that are mounted to each other receiving opposite polarity signals.
What happens to the bass drivers movement when one signal says move, yet the other one is being told to stay, by virtue of the load of the amplifiers output stage.
Isn't high damping factor and thus good cone control a desirable trait of amplifiers.
Absolutely yes you can do what you want.
But it seems like a good way to confuse the heck out of your listening experience.
Another form of constructive/destructive interference. Before the driver cone gets a chance to propagate a sound wave.
Edit, perfect example of altered low frequency phasing.
Two separate voice coils. Each receiving a different signal. Each connected to a different amplifier channel.
ONE magnetic 'motor' assembly.
A low frequency signal on one amplifier, will energise one voice coil. The driver will be expected to move an appropriate amount.
IF the other amplifier is generating a different signal to the second voice coil. The driver will be expected to move to this other drive signal.
What happens to the driver cone when the two voice coils, driven with different signals, that are physically mounted on the same former, within the same magnetic circuit.
Example, a track has music that has been engineered with reversed or out of phase signal to play on the humans psycho acoustical reception.
What happens with two voice coils that are mounted to each other receiving opposite polarity signals.
What happens to the bass drivers movement when one signal says move, yet the other one is being told to stay, by virtue of the load of the amplifiers output stage.
Isn't high damping factor and thus good cone control a desirable trait of amplifiers.
Absolutely yes you can do what you want.
But it seems like a good way to confuse the heck out of your listening experience.
Another form of constructive/destructive interference. Before the driver cone gets a chance to propagate a sound wave.
Edit, perfect example of altered low frequency phasing.
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Do the PA drivers not sound too brash to you? A hole from around 100-400hz, loud too early and out of steam too quickly, was my impression when compared to high power full range drivers with much lower efficiency numbers from pro car audio scene. I am open to running a some different options in that driver location, though
I understand your concerns. I had similar thoughts, but I couldn't reconcile them as taking your example, how would this song play back through a 2,1 system? What would that altered phasing do once summed into the .1 channel?
This would be the option I spoke about earlier, summing the low band output of the tone control to mono and leaving the high band stereo. Merits?
If all depends on your definition of good "stereo sound overall." Is it optimal for all possible scenarios? No, but neither is anything else.
Dynaudio is pushing way into the midrange with one of their dual voice coil designs, so it may be worth trying. As usual, I suggest prototyping quick and cheap to see what things do together.
I think most people are talking theoretically and optimally. I doubt many have actually tried going far into the midrange with a dual voice coil speaker. I haven't.
https://dynaudio.com/custom-install/studio-series/s4-dvc65
Tweeter 2x 28 mm soft dome
Midrange/Woofer 16.5 cm MSP DVC
Dynaudio is pushing way into the midrange with one of their dual voice coil designs, so it may be worth trying. As usual, I suggest prototyping quick and cheap to see what things do together.
I think most people are talking theoretically and optimally. I doubt many have actually tried going far into the midrange with a dual voice coil speaker. I haven't.
https://dynaudio.com/custom-install/studio-series/s4-dvc65
Tweeter 2x 28 mm soft dome
Midrange/Woofer 16.5 cm MSP DVC
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I have not heard a great many active sub systems in domestic use.
But the ones I have, all suffer from integration issues.
1 + -1 = zero, correct ?
Thus a positive signal, summed with an equal negative signal, therefore should = zero signal.
You started by talking about a two channel amp feeding a passive low pass crossover into the dual voice coils of a single driver.
But since you are now talking about sending the l/r signals into a device for processing, you need to work out what devices you are using, and what compromises you are wiling to accept.
But the ones I have, all suffer from integration issues.
1 + -1 = zero, correct ?
Thus a positive signal, summed with an equal negative signal, therefore should = zero signal.
You started by talking about a two channel amp feeding a passive low pass crossover into the dual voice coils of a single driver.
But since you are now talking about sending the l/r signals into a device for processing, you need to work out what devices you are using, and what compromises you are wiling to accept.
For this system, good stereo sound overall would be the best that can be obtained anyway with a 50cm wide enclosure, about the width of a large ghetto blaster and be used on a desktop as an active speaker for an iPhone. Music is Reggae Dub, West Indian and Bollywood
Speakers are DS18 GENX10.4D + a pair of DS18 full ranges
Amp is the 150wrmsx2 board, the FFA001 from Eric.A on this forum
I will be fitting an input stage to the enclosure, comprising a custom tone stack, music and instrument/mic inputs and blue tooth
The custom input stage can allow me to design in summing amps to mix the signals seen by the woofer to mono and can run off the aux power output on the amp board without needing any extra channels of amp power and power supplies
Currently trying to work out the correct way of entering the woofers specs into Winisd. Especially the DVC specs and how to set the voice coil config section. I think it is individual VC Re and set number of coils to 2 and in parallel
Edit: I am considering a lower crossover point around 300hz too. It's just that the 10" has a really sweet high bass
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You need an active xover with 3 channels of amplification, 2 for the full range 1 for the bass. An amp like the Dayton DTA-2.1BT2 would fit the bill I'd only use 1 of the woofer coils though for a 4ohm load. Having the sub in the same box as your full rangers will allow you to xover much higher than normal providing the sub is capable of decent range(many car subs are not they sound like...)
I have one of these amps powering a way oversized soundbar but my full rangers are 7"mid and 1 1/8" tweeter(passive xover) sub is a 10"
I have one of these amps powering a way oversized soundbar but my full rangers are 7"mid and 1 1/8" tweeter(passive xover) sub is a 10"
Look at the frequency, there is no hole around 100-400Hz and there are no severe breakups in highs, it can not be harsh. I have few models and they are flat, extended, not harsh or brash whatever that is, and more importantly its clean sounding, because thay can handle a lot and are quite efficient for 4".
But you can use whatever the crap you have and cross it wherever you want. Your opinions are totally wrong. Just like the whole idea.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-faitalpro-4fe32-8-ohm-4-inch.html
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Dual voice coil woofers work just fine IME. They are an easy way to use a single woofer on with a stereo signal. In practice, the out of phase bass isn’t much of problem. Out of phase content can cause problems with mono sum, but it’s rare. Very frustrating when it does happen!
For years I used a pair of DVC 12” woofers in a stereo setup. The coils were wired in series and they were used as normal 8 ohm woofers. Cheap buy-out woofers crossed over to rather expensive mid-tweeters in a 2-way and it worked wonderfully. Many years of good music out of those.
The DVC woofer is a quick and easy way to do a satellite with woofer system, but you don’t have to use DVC. There are many 2.1 amps and amp boards on the market, as mentioned in a post above. Although with those you rarely get much choice on a crossover point. You do want mid/fullrange that will play fairly low, if the woofer won’t play high.
That’s been my experience with a lot of builds.
For years I used a pair of DVC 12” woofers in a stereo setup. The coils were wired in series and they were used as normal 8 ohm woofers. Cheap buy-out woofers crossed over to rather expensive mid-tweeters in a 2-way and it worked wonderfully. Many years of good music out of those.
The DVC woofer is a quick and easy way to do a satellite with woofer system, but you don’t have to use DVC. There are many 2.1 amps and amp boards on the market, as mentioned in a post above. Although with those you rarely get much choice on a crossover point. You do want mid/fullrange that will play fairly low, if the woofer won’t play high.
That’s been my experience with a lot of builds.
You are not reading me correctly. I am not talking specifically regarding any Faital Pro driver. My only exposure to modern full range drivers are the arrays playing around the town here, DS18 ones as well as the ones found in Logitech Z623 systems. The ones in the PA system playing around here sound bad. On the other hand, I cannot fault the DS18 and Logitech ones for clarity and output when I let them rip in the same locale. They are designed for material with massive dynamic range and do their job very well. I could easily be rude and drown out the little rock band on the left in the park or the Zumba class in the sailing club to right of where I park
I think I'll just try it and see how it goes. Will make a pair of 300hz two-way crossovers as a starting point. For this project, I really want to stick to the two channel board that I already have. The low pass of each xover feeding one VC on the woofer. My enclosure sim is looking good. Will update with a link once I start the build