Hi all,
Maybe for most of you experts on multi-way systems this might not be that relevant. But for a few others, it might be.
Is a midrange driver really needed when you have a very good 10" (or 12") woofer in combination with a very good 1" tweeter?
Why some "audio entusiasts" don't like midrange drivers?
Or when should it added in a multi-way system?
Having found an amplifier I really like now (Yamaha A-720), my quest for a good pair of speakers has just started: 10" (or 12") good low end capable woofer supported by a good tweeter.
I really like the Canton Quinto series, but they are hard to find in good condition.
Another interesting speaker is the one moderator Pano is proposing here, but without a midrange. So, that's why of my first question above...
Many thanks.
P.S.: also the difference about an Open Baffle and a closed box? 🙂
Maybe for most of you experts on multi-way systems this might not be that relevant. But for a few others, it might be.
Is a midrange driver really needed when you have a very good 10" (or 12") woofer in combination with a very good 1" tweeter?
Why some "audio entusiasts" don't like midrange drivers?
Or when should it added in a multi-way system?
Having found an amplifier I really like now (Yamaha A-720), my quest for a good pair of speakers has just started: 10" (or 12") good low end capable woofer supported by a good tweeter.
I really like the Canton Quinto series, but they are hard to find in good condition.
Another interesting speaker is the one moderator Pano is proposing here, but without a midrange. So, that's why of my first question above...
Many thanks.
P.S.: also the difference about an Open Baffle and a closed box? 🙂
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If you're talking about a standard flat baffle 1" dome tweeter crossed to a 10-12" woofer, then that presents many potential problems. The woofer will begin beaming between 1-2khz, and the tweeter will be at 180 degree radiation when it takes over. That leaves a hole in the upper midrange off axis, and a lot of extra treble energy dumped into the room. Crossing the tweeter very low will limit power handling, which is one of the benefits of a large woofer.
The way around that is to use a waveguide on the tweeter, which will allow it cross lower and better match the woofer directivity. It still isnt very common with dome tweeters due to the lack of a real commercial solution, but many a DIYer have gotten creative with pro audio waveguides.
The most common solution to a large woofer 2 way is a horn loaded compression driver in a waveguide ala Econowave/Pi and more recently SEOS designs.
The full range driver as a tweeter approach also has a following, and is refereed to as a FAST design. This is still limited by the capability of the full range driver used, many have poor on and off axis response, and/or low sensitivity, but there are a few diamonds available .
I'll add, nothing says a speaker cant sound good, if it goes against many typical design considerations.
The way around that is to use a waveguide on the tweeter, which will allow it cross lower and better match the woofer directivity. It still isnt very common with dome tweeters due to the lack of a real commercial solution, but many a DIYer have gotten creative with pro audio waveguides.
The most common solution to a large woofer 2 way is a horn loaded compression driver in a waveguide ala Econowave/Pi and more recently SEOS designs.
The full range driver as a tweeter approach also has a following, and is refereed to as a FAST design. This is still limited by the capability of the full range driver used, many have poor on and off axis response, and/or low sensitivity, but there are a few diamonds available .
I'll add, nothing says a speaker cant sound good, if it goes against many typical design considerations.
If you like a classic, look at the 3-Ways by Troels.
3-Way Classic
You can always make a sealed box out of the Seas CA22RNX.
Another nice 8" driver to take notice Scanspeak Revelator 22W 8851T00
Some more drivers that have been talked about lately.
Volt BM220 8 Bass-mid Unit
Dayton Audio SD215A-88 8" DVC Subwoofer 295-484
PEERLESS HDS NOMEX 830869
If you can get the tweeter to cross low enough, no. It may not be easy.
The way to tell if you need a midrange is to decide what the speaker is going to do. E.g. how low can you get the tweeter to do it's job well, how high can you get the lower driver to meet up with it.
Thank you, folks! This is fantastic.
Inductor, that 3-way from Troels is really nice and the SEAS and Scanspeak are marvelous drivers.
I'm also curious to know how Pano's OB perform.
I'd go for a 10-12" woofer.
Thanks guys! This is an excelent souce of info. Things are getting clear... 🙂
Inductor, that 3-way from Troels is really nice and the SEAS and Scanspeak are marvelous drivers.
I'm also curious to know how Pano's OB perform.
I'd go for a 10-12" woofer.
Thanks guys! This is an excelent souce of info. Things are getting clear... 🙂
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The OB speaker sends sound forward and behind, but not to the sides. It reacts with the room differently. The side nulls are due to cancellations which mean the driver needs to be able to move a lot of air.
Ok... 🙂
So, that same OB in a closed way wouldn~t need further efforts to "spread" widly sound into the room, right?
There are different reasons for sending the sound in whatever direction. A closed box may be more versatile for experimenting, but following a known OB design can work.
Products
Look at the LB12 MK2 in the list , try it before without tweeter. These are a lot of sucess in france and Canada, Japan : The designer is FERTIN well known before for his high sensivity wide band speaker. Sound clear and transparent without harchness like maybe ATC monitors speakers in England. You can find it in Canada.
Simple project : just a box here for beguining, tou can had after their 5" developed for OB in medium treble.
Look at the LB12 MK2 in the list , try it before without tweeter. These are a lot of sucess in france and Canada, Japan : The designer is FERTIN well known before for his high sensivity wide band speaker. Sound clear and transparent without harchness like maybe ATC monitors speakers in England. You can find it in Canada.
Simple project : just a box here for beguining, tou can had after their 5" developed for OB in medium treble.
As mentioned, problem crop up when you run a woofer up to 1200, and a tweeter down to 1200 or so. You may be better served by having the HF handled by a compression driver designed to handle 500~20k with the horn controlling the dispersion. Plus, a woofer crossed at 500 will perform better as well. Consider the B&C DE750TN driver on the Eliptrac 400 2" tractrix horn.
Info on the Eliptrac and the B&C driver (and other drivers) here:
Eliptrac 400
ALK Engineering
http://community.klipsch.com/forums/6.aspx
The typical moving mass of a woofer is 30g vs perhaps 5g for a midrange driver. The result of the true midrange is far more detail, ambience, and cleaner impulse response. It also often makes the crossover work easier when you're not operating drivers on the edge of their passband (as is normally the case with a 2-way). Power handling improves also.
Most certainly. A 10" woofer will probably have a cone breakup just below 2khz if it's still, and even an octave lower if it's lossy. A 1" tweeter has its limitations as you go down in frequency - even the better ones like to be crossed over above 2khz, especially in a flat baffle. And then there is the great difference in off-axis frequency response - which you should measure as far out as 15, 30, 45, and 70 degrees horizontal, and 15, 30 vertical!! Only when the off-axis response tracks the on-axis response do speakers have good results. For that you need either acoustically small drivers or a waveguide to limit the tweeter's response. A midrange driver can help address all of the issues above - especially a well-selected one that goes down low to meet the woofer and goes up high to meet the tweeter.
On average, the lowest -6db point I want a 1" tweeter playing on a flat baffle tends to be near the 1.4khz - 2khz mark - and that's very tweeter-dependant, while the highest I want a ten inch driver playing will probably be the 1.2khz mark, and probably 500hz if not mated to a waveguide tweeter.
Probably because there are few good ones - most 3-ways use midwoofers in the midrange, which is unideal as their suspension is optimized for excursion rather than low-loss midrange. Though most audio enthusiast do like midrange drivers, even midwoofers.
When a crossover designer has the capability and desire to.
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Wow...
Suddenly A LOT of good info here. There are ALSO so many nice full-range speakers that could confuse you even more (LOL!). But if they are linear, high efficient, have good extensions (lows to decent highs) and are easy to make, then could be a choice.
But as coolhandjjl said before, "Plus, a woofer crossed at 500 will perform better as well.", maybe that's why I've been always curious how an optimal DIY 3-way could perform.
Thanks guys! You all are fantastic!
Suddenly A LOT of good info here. There are ALSO so many nice full-range speakers that could confuse you even more (LOL!). But if they are linear, high efficient, have good extensions (lows to decent highs) and are easy to make, then could be a choice.
But as coolhandjjl said before, "Plus, a woofer crossed at 500 will perform better as well.", maybe that's why I've been always curious how an optimal DIY 3-way could perform.
Thanks guys! You all are fantastic!
I think it all boils down to what your expectations are and what you intend to do with your system. If you are an classic rock kind of guy, a one-way/full range speaker driven by a SET tube amp may disappoint you. OTOH, an opera aficionado would be thrilled.
I grew up in the '70's and went to college in Santa Barbara. The three-way 'California Sound' is my way of hearing. They just sound "right" to me. I have experimented into other than the direct radiator style in one of my systems however. It's tri-amped using a horn loaded bass bin, horn mid, and dipole tweet. And even though these are a three-way, they do have a very different sonic quality than my three-way JBL L100's.
But again, many people here have outstanding one-way and two way designs. IMO, those are more of a holy grail, and require much more extensive research and testing to pull off properly. I just didn't want those to become my 'Moby Dick". This horn loading thing was enough for me to handle without going nuts and losing it all.
I grew up in the '70's and went to college in Santa Barbara. The three-way 'California Sound' is my way of hearing. They just sound "right" to me. I have experimented into other than the direct radiator style in one of my systems however. It's tri-amped using a horn loaded bass bin, horn mid, and dipole tweet. And even though these are a three-way, they do have a very different sonic quality than my three-way JBL L100's.
But again, many people here have outstanding one-way and two way designs. IMO, those are more of a holy grail, and require much more extensive research and testing to pull off properly. I just didn't want those to become my 'Moby Dick". This horn loading thing was enough for me to handle without going nuts and losing it all.
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Hummm, the 12" unit I talk about is special because there is a second cone for high frequency and i think there a mechanichal break because mechanical cros over.
but it was a bad advice i didn't remember it was a 16 homs for tubes addicts.
yamaha is good, i have a cx2 preamp i love !
Why not a mini onken if you are a rock fan ? little expensive box but woerth with to make it and a lot of good speaker : JBL, ...
but it was a bad advice i didn't remember it was a 16 homs for tubes addicts.
yamaha is good, i have a cx2 preamp i love !
Why not a mini onken if you are a rock fan ? little expensive box but woerth with to make it and a lot of good speaker : JBL, ...
Can I suggest you design your own speaker, Karl?
Downloads
10 or 12" bass and tweeter will take you out of your depth because phase alignment is tricky, but 8" bass plus tweeter is doable. I like this combination myself. 😀
Here's the WLM La Scala, a highly respected speaker that uses the Visaton W200S-8 and Visaton TW 70 Cone tweeter.
30 Litres of 39Hz reflex tuning and it all models well for the smaller monitor version. We could privately discuss a better crossover later, but this will sound very good with rock or any other music I guarantee. 😎
Here's a simple crossover that will work well enough:
Downloads
10 or 12" bass and tweeter will take you out of your depth because phase alignment is tricky, but 8" bass plus tweeter is doable. I like this combination myself. 😀
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's the WLM La Scala, a highly respected speaker that uses the Visaton W200S-8 and Visaton TW 70 Cone tweeter.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
30 Litres of 39Hz reflex tuning and it all models well for the smaller monitor version. We could privately discuss a better crossover later, but this will sound very good with rock or any other music I guarantee. 😎
Here's a simple crossover that will work well enough:
Attachments
2 WAYS are not simple, most of time they are loudness, there is a trap in the mid the measurement doesn't often show... and you can hear that in your room. I have a 2 ways proac D15... they are loudness...but a rock fan can like that !
Better a wide band but lake off bass but specials one like the 12 or 10" can do it but often designed for tubes lovers : need voltage amp more than current amp...
I think the 3 ways is the solution for most all of us... but I'm sure there are very good designed 2 ways... but few -Zaph for example to avoid waste of time and money is to be considered, but he is not alone...follow advices when tested before like upon...)
The second hand market can save you too fot ther money aspect : very goods speakers sold by fools who do not know what they sell !
Better a wide band but lake off bass but specials one like the 12 or 10" can do it but often designed for tubes lovers : need voltage amp more than current amp...
I think the 3 ways is the solution for most all of us... but I'm sure there are very good designed 2 ways... but few -Zaph for example to avoid waste of time and money is to be considered, but he is not alone...follow advices when tested before like upon...)
The second hand market can save you too fot ther money aspect : very goods speakers sold by fools who do not know what they sell !
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