I need suggestions for a woofer to match up with JBL 2404H, crossed over at about 4-5 khz. I have 4 NIB units, and would like to use them for my small theater project. The room is only 14' x 17', so I'm thinking of a nice center channel, and a pair of monitors to get started. I have existing subs for the bottom end, with 12" active driver and 12" passive radiator.
So far, I'm thinking of the Satori MR16P-4, or the Audax PR170MO. I've also considered Beyma and B&C, but don't have any personal experience with them.
I'm concerned that perhaps it would be better to just sell the JBL, and use something else, but I'm not good at actually getting around to selling things like that.
I will mention that I have an active electronic 3 way stereo TDM 24CX crossover that has CD boost. I could do these as an active 2 or 3 way.
Please, your thoughts!
So far, I'm thinking of the Satori MR16P-4, or the Audax PR170MO. I've also considered Beyma and B&C, but don't have any personal experience with them.
I'm concerned that perhaps it would be better to just sell the JBL, and use something else, but I'm not good at actually getting around to selling things like that.
I will mention that I have an active electronic 3 way stereo TDM 24CX crossover that has CD boost. I could do these as an active 2 or 3 way.
Please, your thoughts!
eriksquires: Is a 12" woofer what I need?
I was somewhat avoiding US Speaker, because many of the choices on that site would tempt me in the direction of a very efficient 3 way. I have these drivers left over because I never ended up finishing some prior projects with JBL and TAD components, which are languishing in their respective boxes right now. I was somewhat alluding to that with my comment regarding the choice of using the JBL 2404h. The room I will place these in somewhat demands a smaller speaker, along the size of your typical 9" wide, maybe 10" deep monitor. I should explain: The room is literally shaped like a small amphitheater. The area for the screen is only 92"wide, tapering outward at a 30 degree angle on the left and right. I want the largest screen I can get, so speakers have to go along the sides where the room tapers outward. Due to the shape, I don't think I can do a set up that uses the speakers behind the screen.
I was hoping for a nice monitor that could serve 50% of the time for music on our first floor, and for HT at night. My serious equipment is in a dedicated room in the basement.
I realize the JBL are a pro speaker, but I have read that their claimed efficiency over 100db is not accurate, and is in the lower 90's. I thought that perhaps a nice SB woofer, or maybe P Audio, Beyma, RCF, etc might work well in a 2way, using the subs.
Frankly, if I was to build with a 12" woofer (very nice idea) I'd build Troels SB classic design, or buy something from Wayne Parham. (pi) But I don't have room for them, unless I accept a big compromise and buy a 75" TV, rather than use a projector as planned. That sounds funny....but we use a 50" TV now and it just doesn't cut it for movies like LOTR.
I was somewhat avoiding US Speaker, because many of the choices on that site would tempt me in the direction of a very efficient 3 way. I have these drivers left over because I never ended up finishing some prior projects with JBL and TAD components, which are languishing in their respective boxes right now. I was somewhat alluding to that with my comment regarding the choice of using the JBL 2404h. The room I will place these in somewhat demands a smaller speaker, along the size of your typical 9" wide, maybe 10" deep monitor. I should explain: The room is literally shaped like a small amphitheater. The area for the screen is only 92"wide, tapering outward at a 30 degree angle on the left and right. I want the largest screen I can get, so speakers have to go along the sides where the room tapers outward. Due to the shape, I don't think I can do a set up that uses the speakers behind the screen.
I was hoping for a nice monitor that could serve 50% of the time for music on our first floor, and for HT at night. My serious equipment is in a dedicated room in the basement.
I realize the JBL are a pro speaker, but I have read that their claimed efficiency over 100db is not accurate, and is in the lower 90's. I thought that perhaps a nice SB woofer, or maybe P Audio, Beyma, RCF, etc might work well in a 2way, using the subs.
Frankly, if I was to build with a 12" woofer (very nice idea) I'd build Troels SB classic design, or buy something from Wayne Parham. (pi) But I don't have room for them, unless I accept a big compromise and buy a 75" TV, rather than use a projector as planned. That sounds funny....but we use a 50" TV now and it just doesn't cut it for movies like LOTR.
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't read the part that this is really a satellite system.
I think B&C has some very nice high efficiency midranges around 8"-10" at US Speaker.
US Speaker - 10" Speakers & Bass Speakers - 10" speakers by Eminence Speaker, JBL, EV, RCF, Beyma, Peavey, Celestion, P.Audio, Ampeg, Crate, Jensen, Fane and Pyle. 10" bass speakers & 10" guitar speakers. Find the right 10" woofer here.
Since this is more of a pro/high efficiency design, something like that should mate very well.
Best,
E
I think B&C has some very nice high efficiency midranges around 8"-10" at US Speaker.
US Speaker - 10" Speakers & Bass Speakers - 10" speakers by Eminence Speaker, JBL, EV, RCF, Beyma, Peavey, Celestion, P.Audio, Ampeg, Crate, Jensen, Fane and Pyle. 10" bass speakers & 10" guitar speakers. Find the right 10" woofer here.
Since this is more of a pro/high efficiency design, something like that should mate very well.
Best,
E
please comment on Faital Pro 8" and JBL 2404H
I took a long look at US Speaker today, and the line that seemed to fit what I'm looking for is Faital Pro. Specifically, their 8" models 8RS250 at $169, and their 8PR155 at $150. I also thought of their 6PR122 (6.5") at $150. The 8RS250 extends out further than the rest, and might allow for a decent transition to the JBL 2404H I have. JBL crossed them over as low as 3500, but most users recommend 4000 to 5000 as a minimum point. I'm not very concerned with power, since this is a small room, and you won't be able to sit further than about 8' away from the speakers. I also like the idea of doing the center channel as a 3rd identical unit to the LR. They work nicely in a reasonable size box. I have considered one of the Parts Express 1 cf curved side boxes for this, or even the .75 cf model.
I took a long look at US Speaker today, and the line that seemed to fit what I'm looking for is Faital Pro. Specifically, their 8" models 8RS250 at $169, and their 8PR155 at $150. I also thought of their 6PR122 (6.5") at $150. The 8RS250 extends out further than the rest, and might allow for a decent transition to the JBL 2404H I have. JBL crossed them over as low as 3500, but most users recommend 4000 to 5000 as a minimum point. I'm not very concerned with power, since this is a small room, and you won't be able to sit further than about 8' away from the speakers. I also like the idea of doing the center channel as a 3rd identical unit to the LR. They work nicely in a reasonable size box. I have considered one of the Parts Express 1 cf curved side boxes for this, or even the .75 cf model.
Right need a matching front three, what you are proposing sounds a little on the large side for 14' x 17' IMO.
Also check out Dolby Atmos; up to 11 channels for HT
e.g. https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/model=avm-60/page=overview
Projectors are way cool, but really only get about 1,000 hours on a bulb though.
Pre wire everything now (as I'm sure you have considered)
Also check out Dolby Atmos; up to 11 channels for HT
e.g. https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/model=avm-60/page=overview
Projectors are way cool, but really only get about 1,000 hours on a bulb though.
Pre wire everything now (as I'm sure you have considered)
I've not heard them, but some one else was pointing out the B&C mid/woofers and I thought they spec'd very nicely myself. 🙂
Many Faital fans here too.
Many Faital fans here too.
FWIW, just using math, 100 deg/3 kHz = ~5" effective dia. piston an ~4"/4 kHz, so if using > 6.5"/5.25" drivers, then check its 100 deg polar response.
GM
GM
Last edited:
There are two variations of the 2404.
The 2404H should be crossed at or above 5kHz.
The 2404H-1's can be crossed as low as 3.5kHz.
They have different diaphragms.
Barry.
The 2404H should be crossed at or above 5kHz.
The 2404H-1's can be crossed as low as 3.5kHz.
They have different diaphragms.
Barry.
Which one is this then? It lists 3 kHz or above if 2nd order [typo?]: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2404.pdf
GM
GM
Sounds a little too complicated to me, active xo's means more amps, more active xo's, more connections. Need 5 -7 channels (min) for HT , not counting sub woofer(s).
As far as the LCR and surrounds, I think you would like the sound of a room full of 2-way speakers with 6.5" - 7" mid-woofers.
As far as the LCR and surrounds, I think you would like the sound of a room full of 2-way speakers with 6.5" - 7" mid-woofers.
Attachments
Last edited:
I don't recall seeing a cut sheet for the 2404H-1. The -1 uses the D8R075 diaphragm from the bullet and the standard 2404H uses the D16R2405 diaphragm as used in the slots. The -1 also has a smaller diameter phase plug, 1.600" verses 1,720" at the base.
The -1's were used in the Cabaret series and some others where they were crossed over to an 8" driver. They don't sound smooth to me crossed low even though you can.
One can find out what JBL used where and how they are integrated by browsing the exploded views for components and the standard liturature for the as used crossover information.
I hope this is somwhat helpful.
Barry.
which one is it?
Thank you all for your comments. Mine are the 2404H. Let me get this out on the table right now...I'm no good at math, and really struggle with a lot of the crossover issues many of you seem to be expert at. In my non-expert, long term reading, what I have discovered is that JBL made a bewildering combination of speakers and ways to use those drivers. Mine has the lighter diaphragm, which knowledgeable users always want to cross over at 5-8khz. I've read about the same driver being CD corrected, and pushed down to a crossover point of 3khz. What I have read (again) is that the drivers gives up 10 db or more of its effective efficiency when doing that. I don't care about that...this is not going to get super loud, because my wife has very sensitive hearing. When I want to play my 2 channel loud, I go to my large dedicated basement room.
I do know this: I have heard these drivers in use on JBL products in the past, and I like the sound of them. They do not sound "horn like" to me. I have 4 of them NIB, which I paid $900 for years ago. My thought, or rather, question is if I can apply them in this part-time HT use.
DougBo: I have a Marantz 8801 unit for this project, and a great 7 channel amp (160 watts per channel) I like your picture of the MTM's, I'm thinking of a cabinet along those dimensions, or a similar one with just one woofer. I'm going to use this about 50%-75% of the time for music on my main floor. For now, I just want to get the LCR part going. Frankly, this room is so odd shaped that I don't expect to get past 5.1, or maybe 7.1. To do that, I will be forced to use in wall, or more likely in ceiling speakers. The rear wall is all glass, and has doorways on it too. So no floor standers or monitors. Since I'm doing all of the physical work myself (look at my moniker) I can make just about anything happen, like building nice 3/4 birch plywood boxes to mount in-wall or in ceiling. I'll wire it all myself, and as for bulb life, it is a non-issue for me. I have enough Appleply on hand to build the LCR's.
I started out wanting to grab a Satori MR16P or something like that, build a simple 3/4 box, and see what happens. Then eriksquires commented on US Speaker, and after looking at that, I'm attracted (literally) to the Faital Pro driver hexagonal shape, which I feel would look very nice with the JBL. When I look at the response curves, they mean nearly nothing to me...I don't know enough to make good decisions about that. I need help with that. I love to help others with construction advice; I'm just asking for others to help me through this.
Although I have active subs already, I can easily do an infinite baffle here, because the room sits above a crawlspace. In fact, I can do multiple, distributed subs in that odd room due to the crawlspace. This is my logic for using a small monitor, up front. If I need more amps, I will gladly go buy more. Any excuse to buy American.
Thank you all for your comments. Mine are the 2404H. Let me get this out on the table right now...I'm no good at math, and really struggle with a lot of the crossover issues many of you seem to be expert at. In my non-expert, long term reading, what I have discovered is that JBL made a bewildering combination of speakers and ways to use those drivers. Mine has the lighter diaphragm, which knowledgeable users always want to cross over at 5-8khz. I've read about the same driver being CD corrected, and pushed down to a crossover point of 3khz. What I have read (again) is that the drivers gives up 10 db or more of its effective efficiency when doing that. I don't care about that...this is not going to get super loud, because my wife has very sensitive hearing. When I want to play my 2 channel loud, I go to my large dedicated basement room.
I do know this: I have heard these drivers in use on JBL products in the past, and I like the sound of them. They do not sound "horn like" to me. I have 4 of them NIB, which I paid $900 for years ago. My thought, or rather, question is if I can apply them in this part-time HT use.
DougBo: I have a Marantz 8801 unit for this project, and a great 7 channel amp (160 watts per channel) I like your picture of the MTM's, I'm thinking of a cabinet along those dimensions, or a similar one with just one woofer. I'm going to use this about 50%-75% of the time for music on my main floor. For now, I just want to get the LCR part going. Frankly, this room is so odd shaped that I don't expect to get past 5.1, or maybe 7.1. To do that, I will be forced to use in wall, or more likely in ceiling speakers. The rear wall is all glass, and has doorways on it too. So no floor standers or monitors. Since I'm doing all of the physical work myself (look at my moniker) I can make just about anything happen, like building nice 3/4 birch plywood boxes to mount in-wall or in ceiling. I'll wire it all myself, and as for bulb life, it is a non-issue for me. I have enough Appleply on hand to build the LCR's.
I started out wanting to grab a Satori MR16P or something like that, build a simple 3/4 box, and see what happens. Then eriksquires commented on US Speaker, and after looking at that, I'm attracted (literally) to the Faital Pro driver hexagonal shape, which I feel would look very nice with the JBL. When I look at the response curves, they mean nearly nothing to me...I don't know enough to make good decisions about that. I need help with that. I love to help others with construction advice; I'm just asking for others to help me through this.
Although I have active subs already, I can easily do an infinite baffle here, because the room sits above a crawlspace. In fact, I can do multiple, distributed subs in that odd room due to the crawlspace. This is my logic for using a small monitor, up front. If I need more amps, I will gladly go buy more. Any excuse to buy American.
odougbo...what are those speakers?
I forgot to mention....is that your woodworking? It is beautiful! I'm very impressed with the look of the slot port too. Very nice. What are the drivers?
I have a confession to make...I'm going to have a friend build my cabinets, because he is a pro, and needs the money. He is building 4 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, and 2 master closets for me right now. (cabinets) I'm doing the framing, wiring, HVAC, boilers, plumbing, hardwood floors, etc. I've also talked to him about just taking a pair of the Parts Express cabinets, and beefing them up, making a new baffle structure for them, and an integrated stand.
What are the dimensions of your cabinets? (External)
Thanks!
I forgot to mention....is that your woodworking? It is beautiful! I'm very impressed with the look of the slot port too. Very nice. What are the drivers?
I have a confession to make...I'm going to have a friend build my cabinets, because he is a pro, and needs the money. He is building 4 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, and 2 master closets for me right now. (cabinets) I'm doing the framing, wiring, HVAC, boilers, plumbing, hardwood floors, etc. I've also talked to him about just taking a pair of the Parts Express cabinets, and beefing them up, making a new baffle structure for them, and an integrated stand.
What are the dimensions of your cabinets? (External)
Thanks!
Marantz 8801 oh yea and so close to buying one, but very happy with the Anthem.
This may be the word's best xo website (0; But starting a design from scratch can result in years of frustration and extra parts that eventuality end up in a bin.
And going active only removes the impedance rise problem.
The answer 😀 look for a proven design, there are 100's of them out there.
Ok the Renditions! A really great speaker that measures beautifully. Adding a pic of the TMM which is my center and best of the lot (made 9 of them idk really)
xo - low part count design, very nice indeed!!
HT tweeter:
Dayton Audio RS28F-4 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter
Anarchy woofer 8ohm
Anarchy Woofer DIY Sound Group
Dims: 8-3/4"W 25"T 13-1/4"D
For the best sound though, you really want to have the speaker on stands vs. mounted in G.W.B. which goes along with the projected screen ploy.
Btw home builder here also (previous career)
This may be the word's best xo website (0; But starting a design from scratch can result in years of frustration and extra parts that eventuality end up in a bin.
And going active only removes the impedance rise problem.
The answer 😀 look for a proven design, there are 100's of them out there.
Ok the Renditions! A really great speaker that measures beautifully. Adding a pic of the TMM which is my center and best of the lot (made 9 of them idk really)
xo - low part count design, very nice indeed!!
HT tweeter:
Dayton Audio RS28F-4 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter
Anarchy woofer 8ohm
Anarchy Woofer DIY Sound Group
Dims: 8-3/4"W 25"T 13-1/4"D
For the best sound though, you really want to have the speaker on stands vs. mounted in G.W.B. which goes along with the projected screen ploy.
Btw home builder here also (previous career)
Attachments
The 18sound 6ND430 was selected for one design. "Particular effort was given to the surround shape and material design in order to minimize the resonances on mid range frequencies." 92db efficiency
jbl 2404 H network need help
jbl 2404 H network need help
Attachments
Yes, thanks and curious if significant CD horn EQ was used to determine its smoothness. In a similar situation, many folks don't like Altec's 511 used at its 500 Hz/2nd minimum, but best I can tell, they don't properly EQ them, which dramatically flattens it out and lowers its power requirements; ditto folk's disdain for using the later Mantaray this low.
GM
Does PE have any plywood cabinets? Typically mdf I think.
You'd want multi layer plywood cabinets: Baltic Birch. It can be ordered with different veneers, oak, cheery, etc.
BB ply is arguably the best material as far as sound quality.
Some of us just whip out a mdf box just to work the bugs out the final plywood build 😱
Checked out the Satori 16P-4 midrange, if you find a 2-way project using a Satori mid-bass that would in intriguing.
There is a really easy solution here, a small box with a powerful sound, did you ever see this? One of the better DIY kits:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-sr71-kit-pair-parts-only/
btw, are you on the east or west coast?
You'd want multi layer plywood cabinets: Baltic Birch. It can be ordered with different veneers, oak, cheery, etc.
BB ply is arguably the best material as far as sound quality.
Some of us just whip out a mdf box just to work the bugs out the final plywood build 😱
Checked out the Satori 16P-4 midrange, if you find a 2-way project using a Satori mid-bass that would in intriguing.
There is a really easy solution here, a small box with a powerful sound, did you ever see this? One of the better DIY kits:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-sr71-kit-pair-parts-only/
btw, are you on the east or west coast?
Last edited:
I use my ring radiators on top of a compression driver/horn assemblies that usually get to at least 12kHz cleanly so mine usually come in at 10-12kHz. At that point very little if any EQ is required.
I have horsed around with lower crossover points and EQ as required and prefer 8kHz minimum.
AN exception is a little pair of Cabaret's with two eights and a 2404-1's I have in a build room at the shop. I have not tried to beat the stock crossovers although I think it would be easy. If you get loud with them they hurt you straight away.
Barry.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.