Music & Harmonics

Bksabath

Banned
2007-12-01 11:21 pm
I prefer LPs for older music (pre-80s), I think it is mostly the mastering process used. ...

100%

Music is the strangest kind of magic
It all went bad since digital

One has just to make sure that the signal does not go in to clipping and to help whit that just use a compressor or 2

Then one loose all those harmonics in the microseconds where a square wave is, well, square

There was art and magic in putting a master tape in to the metal print and all that is gone.

Did you honestly can say that you can hear the T of a wood just before the finger close the holes whit digital?

Please prove me wrong Post catalogue numbers and format


A box to make digital sound like analogue? yes brilliant idea:D
Please send your turn tables and old records to me for free disposal
 
100%

Music is the strangest kind of magic
It all went bad since digital

One has just to make sure that the signal does not go in to clipping and to help whit that just use a compressor or 2

Then one loose all those harmonics in the microseconds where a square wave is, well, square

There was art and magic in putting a master tape in to the metal print and all that is gone.

Did you honestly can say that you can hear the T of a wood just before the finger close the holes whit digital?

Please prove me wrong Post catalogue numbers and format


A box to make digital sound like analogue? yes brilliant idea:D
Please send your turn tables and old records to me for free disposal

CD and dac sounds the same, only vinyl sound like vinyl , no matter if the source is digital,

I like my DMM vinyl, sounds nice, digital magnetic tapes recordings
 

Bksabath

Banned
2007-12-01 11:21 pm
Just to elaborate on that, a genuine stereo signal will have 'space' information in the low frequencies - I believe it has been shown that people can estimate the size of the space they are in while blindfolded from the LF noise which is always present. l.

What about harmonics?

I wuld like to find out more about it.Is there a study on the efects they have?
I believe that those are realy important.

Take a "simple" string instrument like guitar one whit a bit of listening experience can tell the difference between 2 different makes even when the 2 are perfectley tuned to play the same note.
For years now I have ben experiencing the plesant efect of mild 2 harmonic distorsion whit my "Papa" amplifiers.
What about the higher orders Harmonics?
Can we ear 5th 7th order Harmonics? any Higher than that?

Here is one link
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/timbre.html

Any more?
 
Last edited:

Bksabath

Banned
2007-12-01 11:21 pm
Whether we can hear them depends on the value of the fundamental and then the relative amplitudes of the harmonics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic

Tanks Mooly
But I think that we can hear them as you would agree that 2 different make guitars tuned to same frequency make different sound

Nelson Pass describe 2nd Harmonic distortion as giving warmt to the sound
Would you agree whit this?
So my question still stand
What are the efects of 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th harmonics ?
 
Bksabath said:
Tanks Mooly
But I think that we can hear them as you would agree that 2 different make guitars tuned to same frequency make different sound

Nelson Pass describe 2nd Harmonic distortion as giving warmt to the sound
Would you agree whit this?
So my question still stand
What are the efects of 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th harmonics ?
Could you elaborate on what this has to do with this thread on the sound of LP? Simple questions about harmonic (and overtone) audibility can be answered by using google.
 

Bksabath

Banned
2007-12-01 11:21 pm
http://milbert.com/Files/articles/TvsT/tstxt.pdf
On page 272 there are few interesting lines on how harmonic effect sound
The all article is about why tranies do not sound as tubes.

I don't know this Milbert dude. He may be trying to sell you something or he may be a clever fellow that spent hours making serious research

In his opinion about harmonics quote : The harmonics above the 7 give the sound it's edge or bite

I presume that a system that is not able to reproduce those is seriously inferior

So how much of this information is lost in the part of the signal when the Square wave is square?

I am asking a very relevant question I think and certainly I don't need the tread police to burst my XXXXX
 
Last edited:
http://milbert.com/Files/articles/TvsT/tstxt.pdf
On page 272 there are few interesting lines on how harmonic effect sound
The all article is about why tranies do not sound as tubes.

I don't know this Milbert dude. He may be trying to sell you something or he may be a clever fellow that spent hours making serious research

In his opinion about harmonics quote : The harmonics above the 7 give the sound it's edge or bite

I presume that a system that is not able to reproduce those is seriously inferior

So how much of this information is lost in the part of the signal when the Square wave is square?

I am asking a very relevant question I think and certainly I don't need the tread police to burst my XXXXX

I never saw a square in a music signal :film:

I never care for what my amps can do as long as it sounds good.

I have one hypothesis for the higher harmonics: maybe the feedback loops bury the real original higher harmonics because of the well known effect of feedback... (messing up harmonics, higher order generated distortion)

Less Relevant: I played with arbitrary signal generator (you can draw your own signals and throw them at the amp) and the ability for any type of amp to reproduce the details of sharp dips, bifurcation and such is appalling low! It is a miracle that it still sounds like music after
 

FrankWW

Member
2004-07-29 7:59 am
n/a
Tanks Mooly
But I think that we can hear them as you would agree that 2 different make guitars tuned to same frequency make different sound

Nelson Pass describe 2nd Harmonic distortion as giving warmt to the sound
Would you agree whit this?
So my question still stand
What are the efects of 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th harmonics ?

"Warm" or "cold" sound is the result of instruments' radiation having less or or greater comparative HF or LF energies.

Regarding spaciousness, etc, you might ransack Griesinger's site. Towards bottom of his home page is a list of his publications.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/
 

Bksabath

Banned
2007-12-01 11:21 pm
I never saw a square in a music signal :film:

That make 2 of us

I am referring to the sampling wave of the CD format as it is limited to the sampling frequency and the space between the different samples is pretty much flat.


http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/analog-digital3.htm
Just look at those funny green shapes on the diagrams.


Tanks for link I will certainly spend a few sleepless nights reading .

In the mean time make do whit the one I posted


You can certainly look at this I am sure proof that I am wrong is there

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Encyclopaedia-Britannica/dp/0852290667
 
Last edited:

benb

Member
2010-04-24 1:52 am
My apologies to Mr. Self for this, er, Digital Distraction in the thread:

That make 2 of us

I am referring to the sampling wave of the CD format as it is limited to the sampling frequency and the space between the different samples is pretty much flat.
The graph this refers to shows a straight line between each sample point, thus making it a sort-of "triangular" wave, as opposed to the bars and "flat lines" of the other diagrams. Neither of these is what a reconstruction filter does or what comes out of a DAC.

"When the DAC recreates the wave from these numbers, you get the blue line shown in the following figure:"

There's enough little wrong details that I'd say that whole site is misleading. I suggest doing some "real" learning about how all this stuff works, like this:
The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing
This book (like any standard DSP textbook) goes into all that stuff and gives the correct answers.
 

Bksabath

Banned
2007-12-01 11:21 pm
Agree that same sites are misleading and that is why I was asking questions about how we perceive music
AS you mention the reconstruction filter "build" back the music after it has been de-constructed and sampled at a frequency of 44 KHZ
I presume that the giga magic that das the sampling uses a limited time to take the sample process it and then take the next sample what happens to the music between samples is lost.
How important is what is lost?
On the link I have posted Harmonics up to the 9th effect the sound
A 1kHz note would have same important parts at 9KHz
I am sure you can do beterer math than me and work out where the 9th harmonic would be for a 2 KHz note or a 4Khz note.
I am not intending that we ear much of frequencies above say 15 KHz
What I am asking is what we missing of the small changes that the harmonics make to the fundamental note.

I would also appreciate if you could explain why you apologise to MR. Self he asked why, and I believe he did not put limitations, like: please do not post unless U have same alphabet after your name or such, CD does not sound like Vinyl and a discussion on the Digital processing is certainly a fundamental part of it.
IMO I find it quite patronizing and obtuse.
 
What I am asking is what we missing of the small changes that the harmonics make to the fundamental note.
you are not missing any, the full music info is there up to your hearing ability.

The funny curvy and wavy thing that you see is the analog signal and it is not missing anything that the microphone couldn't pick up.

The single curvy wave signal carries at time scales each harmonic and sound possibly picked up by the microphone. It get messy as your amplifier tries to upscale that wave form into speaker driving current. Different Speaker diaphragm size are better at bringing into sound the frequencies. The small changes would be loss at the amplifier level, and bandwidth, dynamics and harmonics at the speaker level.

If you would say to us that down-sampling from 192khz to 44khz messes up your audio, then it is more interesting and out of my league
 

Bksabath

Banned
2007-12-01 11:21 pm
you are not missing any, the full music info is there up to your hearing ability.


If you would say to us that down-sampling from 192khz to 44khz messes up your audio, then it is more interesting and out of my league

you are not missing any, the full music info is there up to your hearing ability.

So you say that 44,000 samples do no miss any of the analogue signal?

that what hapens to the signal in the time between samples are been taken is not lost?

Sound a bit like magic to me.