At the purely concept stage of building myself some large three way sealed cabinet (in fact three sealed cabinet, Naim style) active speakers.
I haven't played this game for forty years. Prejudices, I like simple crossovers, metal domed tweeters, and low distortion and transient handling come before a flat frequency response. I like things designed in the first world and built in the third. Best speaker I ever owned, Epos ES14s. Taken out by lightening.
Units have to be readily available in Europe (mainland, not UK).
I like the idea of the SB metal domed tweeter. What's a good brand of mid and bass to go with that? Or is it not as good as it looks? Motus look nice for the mid, but I'm struggling to find a suppler.
Tweeter, mid, bass, for punch and low distortion, high end but not silly. What are the fancied runners and riders these days?
I haven't played this game for forty years. Prejudices, I like simple crossovers, metal domed tweeters, and low distortion and transient handling come before a flat frequency response. I like things designed in the first world and built in the third. Best speaker I ever owned, Epos ES14s. Taken out by lightening.
Units have to be readily available in Europe (mainland, not UK).
I like the idea of the SB metal domed tweeter. What's a good brand of mid and bass to go with that? Or is it not as good as it looks? Motus look nice for the mid, but I'm struggling to find a suppler.
Tweeter, mid, bass, for punch and low distortion, high end but not silly. What are the fancied runners and riders these days?
Epos ES14 designer proved a cleverly designed concept loudspeaker (almost crossoverless) can be as good for an average consumer as anything else while human brain has got a terrific quality to be able to adapt to anything, further supporting the whole concept.
In fact, to design a similar sounding 3 way loudspeaker (colored) should not present a difficult task to any good designer, and I believe a solidly done simulation would have sufficed to achieve that.
Choice of drive unit brand would be a secondary concern. Any well behaved polypropylene and/or paper cone should help in keeping the x/o parts as few as possible.
Does this sound reasonable?
In fact, to design a similar sounding 3 way loudspeaker (colored) should not present a difficult task to any good designer, and I believe a solidly done simulation would have sufficed to achieve that.
Choice of drive unit brand would be a secondary concern. Any well behaved polypropylene and/or paper cone should help in keeping the x/o parts as few as possible.
Does this sound reasonable?
Satori range
TW29BN 8 ohm
MR13P 8 ohm
WO24P 8 ohm
Would that be a reasonable place to start doing some calculations from?
TW29BN 8 ohm
MR13P 8 ohm
WO24P 8 ohm
Would that be a reasonable place to start doing some calculations from?
Hardly, woofer and midrange are both modern drive units with shorting rings enabling wide band range response, thus working against "simple crossover" philosophy.
He's doing it active.. passive parts in the path won't be problem (with regard to a loss in sound quality). He can also make other adjustments depending on how complex the active filter is (..and I'm assuming good DSP here).
I'd target a Dueland crossover for most reasonable bandwidth drivers.
From there it's down to drivers of personal choice. The Epos drivers main sound was derived from what I believe was a TPX (hard plastic) driver. IF that was really preferred, then I'd look to a midrange (or extended woofer) that similar properties - the most obvious being a new old stock Audax TPX driver.
Audax TPX 4.5" 8 ohm Midrange New Old Stock +/-2db 250Hz-8KHz | eBay
If it were me though and looking for this sort of sound, I'd probably go with SB's *5* inch mineral-filled POLY driver. It's objectively excellent.
I'd target a Dueland crossover for most reasonable bandwidth drivers.
From there it's down to drivers of personal choice. The Epos drivers main sound was derived from what I believe was a TPX (hard plastic) driver. IF that was really preferred, then I'd look to a midrange (or extended woofer) that similar properties - the most obvious being a new old stock Audax TPX driver.
Audax TPX 4.5" 8 ohm Midrange New Old Stock +/-2db 250Hz-8KHz | eBay
If it were me though and looking for this sort of sound, I'd probably go with SB's *5* inch mineral-filled POLY driver. It's objectively excellent.
Thanks!
Appreciated. It's forty years since I built some speakers in the school woodworking shed, and my memory has faded and technology moved on, so I expect I am being completely wrong headed.
There won't be any DSP or op amps, this really about playing with Chinese knock off Naim circuit boards. I already have all the Linn and Naim kit I need, the only excuse for building more is going active.
It's true with an active crossover I can do something complex without component quality loss. But I think the ES14s sounded good because you weren't chopping from drive unit to drive unit. Hence I want to do a simple 1st order 6db crossover. And therefore why I'm looking at wide range drivers - except at the extremes there will generally be two working at any given frequency.
The other big advantage of a simple crossover - in fact four components - is that I can put the caps and inducers on rotary switches and, having worked something out in theory, tweak it indefinitely until it sounds right.
Am I making sense or talking nonsense?
The big reason for NOT going this way is price. These Satori drivers are scary expensive. A complex cross over and old fashioned units would be a whole heap cheaper. Almost to the extent I could start there and learn what I'm doing and then change drivers, baffles and crossovers later, when I feel I might have a clue!
Appreciated. It's forty years since I built some speakers in the school woodworking shed, and my memory has faded and technology moved on, so I expect I am being completely wrong headed.
There won't be any DSP or op amps, this really about playing with Chinese knock off Naim circuit boards. I already have all the Linn and Naim kit I need, the only excuse for building more is going active.
It's true with an active crossover I can do something complex without component quality loss. But I think the ES14s sounded good because you weren't chopping from drive unit to drive unit. Hence I want to do a simple 1st order 6db crossover. And therefore why I'm looking at wide range drivers - except at the extremes there will generally be two working at any given frequency.
The other big advantage of a simple crossover - in fact four components - is that I can put the caps and inducers on rotary switches and, having worked something out in theory, tweak it indefinitely until it sounds right.
Am I making sense or talking nonsense?
The big reason for NOT going this way is price. These Satori drivers are scary expensive. A complex cross over and old fashioned units would be a whole heap cheaper. Almost to the extent I could start there and learn what I'm doing and then change drivers, baffles and crossovers later, when I feel I might have a clue!
And a massive whoopsie there, I've just realised I have absolutely no idea how to build a line level passive crossover. One thing you don't want is inductors...
I'm really not sure what you are saying here. 😕
Perhaps "passive" active crossover (minimalist passive network before amplifiers)? EDIT: yes, a "line level passive crossover".
If so, generally look to a small diameter "fullrange" driver as a "base" and build on that (bass and treble).
It should be small in diameter because the smaller in diameter - the higher in freq. it will go without beaming, and generally the higher in freq. it will go near the average. It also allows for getting your tweeter closer to your fullrange driver to reduce combing effects. All of this allows for a higher freq. crossover for your tweeter to reduce heavy excursion with a low order (high-pass) slope. Also, your tweeter should have a minimalist frame/face-plate so you can move it right up next to your fullrange driver, and it should have decent linear excursion potential at varying power input.
Alternatively consider ditching a traditional tweeter and go with a small cone tweeter that will "take" higher excursion levels.
The SB Acoustics SB65WBAC25-4 would work well for either: being small in diameter and having a good off-axis performance up top with an extended response beyond 20 kHz, and good harmonic distortion performance down to 500 Hz even with +6 db gain and operated "fullrange" (..which it wouldn't be with a suitable high-pass filter on it).
Another option for the mid.+tweeter might be one of the Scan Speak fiberglass "midrange"/broad-band drivers, Peerless/Vifa 3.5" fiberglass "fullrange", Fountek FR88EX, etc.. The only driver I might select larger than 3.5 inches would be the Fostex FF85WK.
In any event, you would likely be FAR better-off with a DSP crossover along with a decent measurement setup - it makes doing your own design FAR more manageable. You wouldn't be so constrained with driver choices either. miniDSP is the "usual suspect" here. Without enough knowledge, doing the line-level passive approach (or just a passive crossover) is a good way to end up with just parts or a poor loudspeaker (..the exception being a proven design (passive crossover) sometimes referred to as a "kit").
Heed the warnings provided here:
PLLXO Crossovers
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In all likelyness, an optimal solution ought to be a rather simple passive crossover along the lines of Epos philosophy which has grown close to the heart of OP. I would not hesitate to deploy Visaton WS25E, Visaton WS17E-4 and Monacor DT99. A larger value single inductor as 1st order electrical woofer low pass network, a single capacitor as high pass for midrange, another 1st order as midrange low pass and a second order high pass for tweeter, serving to protect the tweeter from overexcursion and overloading, at the same time phase aligning the response at mid/tw x/o point.
These drive units are already well taken care of in a 2 way project from my sig line, and WS25E is a perfect budget woofer to reside in a sealed enclosure. Lots of fun preprogrammed, guaranteed.
These drive units are already well taken care of in a 2 way project from my sig line, and WS25E is a perfect budget woofer to reside in a sealed enclosure. Lots of fun preprogrammed, guaranteed.