Moderating The Moderator

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Please all read this thread Spikes Thread and take particular note of the tone and mode of the responses made by Mr Chris8 and note the denigrating and sarcastic mode of communication employed by him.

I gave common knowledge examples of sources of acoustic feedback, and met with negative naysaying and barbed comments.

After my pressing for evidence of his formal knowledge of electronics he closes the thread.

I am officially complaining about the conduct of this member, who is also a moderator, as I feel that this type of behaviour is neither appropriate or excusable, and is the type of behaviour that is very strongly contributing to the ongoing reduction in quality of this forum.

When Grey was moderator, the intellectual standard was high, and has declined since then.

How about we have a moderator who has rather better social skills, and technical grounding.

Regards, Eric.
 

Wombat

Member
2002-07-09 4:14 am
Germany
Calm down all!

It doesn´t make much fun to read threads like Netiquette, Valete and this.

There are good times, there are bad times.

I am in some other forums and from time to time anger is produced from nothing.
More like being bored of the new topics or newbies that seem to dump to be worth
to answer. Strange egos always will have some mental downs from time to time.

As you say yourself the input that Chris8 gave to the forum before was worth him
beeing around. Now he has made a mistake and everything should go to hell?

This isn´t fair also.

I don´t think much elder members will answer here directly, but me as newbie i
take the chance and say what i want to, even when i am the first victim of the
new Netiquette :)

btw. i have a very good time at the moment (Mas Des Bressades (bottled 2000 in a Barrique))

regards

Wombat
 

arnach

Member
2001-04-07 10:03 pm
USA
Hmm

mrfeedback: Go on, do the experimenting before your knowledgeless auto nay-saying and propagation of dis-information.

chris8: you offer no evidence, data, or rational reasoning. ONly pure speculation. If you wish to state these things it is perfectly ok, but simply do not try to pass them as facts, qualify your statement and simpy admit it is your opinion based on anectdotal evidence.

mrfeedback: When Grey was moderator, the intellectual standard was high, and has declined since then.

It appears to me after reading the posts that mrfeedback is the one in the wrong, not chris8. It seems he is the one guilty of lowering the intellectual standard.
 

grataku

Member
2000-12-31 9:31 am
-
Ok Mr feedback,
I think we got the point.
You really dislike Chris, never miss a chance to take a shot at the guy (see the "valete" thread), write up one word replies to chunks and quotes from his posts that end up being pages long and annoy the crap out of everybody, and when that doesn't do it, start a frinkin' thread about it.
What tha fuk is it that you want, exactly? If you are so unhappy about the way things are and you are not getting anything out of this you should probably climb aboard the pig with defrocked audio prophet Geoff and fly away.
 
unhappy about the way things are

Maybe Jason could start a new forum called
www.hurtfeelings.com Maybe this thread is good idea so everyone can keep thier bitching out of the real threads. I am reminded of a slumber party for thirteen year old girls when it gets late and they start talking bad about the girls that are not there or have fallen asleep. It is really quite funny in a pathetic sort of way. I guess I will sit back and wait for everyone to take shots at me now. I really don't see a need to throw people off the forum when they will have to leave in embassment over some of the nonsense they have published.....

H.H.
 
Qualifiers

Ok, to clarify the reasons for my posts in the spike thread, I offer these quotes:

COWANRG- "even cd players have error-correction and you could shake most modern transports and the sound would still get there the same. equipment is NOT effected by movement, let alone small tiny vibrations. think about it, HOW COULD THAT POSSIBLY CHANGE ANYTHING ? with records i could understand, but not with solid state..."

CHRIS8 - "Spikes on electronics? Improving sound? On solid state/digital equipment this is a myth. No evidence to support this. Speculation."
"You offer no evidence, data, or rational reasoning. ONLY PURE SPECULATION. If you wish to state these things it is perfectly ok, but simply do not try to pass them as facts, qualify your statement and simpy admit it is your OPINION BASED ON ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE."


The above quotes were in response to this paragraph of mine -
"1 - Try running a 1000W audio system in your house and then tell me that acoustic feedback does not influence.
2 - Worst case is that this can cause a CDP to mistrack.
3 - Lesser case is that minor mistracking will cause enough errors for the dsp to have to go into interpolation mode, and this is audible because of temporary halving in bandwidth.
4 - Further effects are caused by high servo stage currents causing modulation of the DSP stage power supplies and consequent jitter production, and modulation of the audio power supplies causing further artifacts.
5 - Try running a high gain audio system and try tapping pcbs and electrolytics - you will be horrified.
6 - Open your CTV and tap the pcb and you will see temporary picture disturbances.
7 - Tube equipment is of course worse in this sensitivity.
8 - This is all about microphonics, nodal points, and tuning."

So, I will give some qualifiers for these points of mine as follows -
1 - When I have run such a system in my house, everything in the room including the walls vibrates bigtime, including the audio equipment, so much so, that to enable correct tracking of my CDP, I HAD to mount the CDP on foam blocks and place telephone blocks on top.
2 - As above.
3 - Uncorrectable data errors, caused by gross mistracking, will cause the CDP DSP to go into interpolation mode.
The next uncorrectable error response is momentary muting.
4 - Typical CDP players suffer power supply interactions, due to the servo stages drawing heavy (and noisey) currents.
Modulation of the DSP power supply will cause the crystal typically internal oscillator stage to exhibit timing errors - jitter.
This is a major reason for dedicated clock modules enabling a cleaner audio output.
Modulation of the DAC power supplies will cause audio band artifacts.
Modulation of the audio output filter stages will cause audio band artifacts.
5 - For example tapping an audio mixing desk (high gain device) will cause an audible output.
6 - Television tuner stages contain oscillator and tuned stages that suffer parasitic couplings and loads that change with physical movements of components.
VCR head amps stages are mechanically sensitive also.
7 - Every thermionic tube that I have tapped causes an audible output.
8 - By this I mean that the above microphonics characteristics are altered by changes in mechanical nodal mounting points - this is tuning.

Study, experience and discussion with others, both here on this forum and in person, confirm all of the above points.
If anybody would like me to further elaborate on any of the above points, by all means please ask.
If anybody can show me that any of the above points is not correct, by all means please do so.


The above information I gave sincerely, and was met by entirely sarcastic remarks such as -

CHRIS8 - "I have been meaning to drop a hair dryer into the bathtub while bathing, to find out what the results REALLY are."
ME - "Not much really - if you have a ELB you end up with a sodden hairdryer."
CHRIS8 - "Ah, another assumption, with no reason for. So IT will be safe, because you have assumed nesecarry safety circuit. Thank you for your insight, and for explaining ALL of your arguments."
ME - "I stated experimental conditions ie - ELB."
ME - ""Also your title says 'moderator' - is this really setting a good example for acceptable behaviour around here ?."
EVEN MORE SARCASM AND RUDENESS FOLLOWS.
CHRIS8 - "Yes, sorry. I will(not really) consult you on the proper 'conduct' for now on."
CHRIS8 - "Politeness? I have made no attacks on one's person."
CHRIS8 - "Sincerely, I have no desire to continually argue. It wastes everyone's time. But I usually can't stand to see biased opinion stated as fact."

So the conclusion of this is that if my above points are true (and I know this to be the case), then by definition the facts that I give are indeed not 'biased opinion', and this then gives the finding that CHRIS8 is indeed argueing and wasting everyone's time (and damaging the spirit of this forum).

The reason that I asked for CHRIS8's level of technical training and knowledge is to establish if he does have the required credentials whilst making issue of my technical points.
When politely asked these questions again, CHRIS8 states that my points are irrelevant, and refuses to divulge his training.

Mr CHRIS8 has previously made great issue of objectivism and double blind testing, however he seems not to realise that BD testing is not infallible, and that not all audible effects are measurable, because of lack of testing resoloution or error in methodology.
As I see it Audio reproduction is an applied science, in addition to subjectivism, and that experienced ears can tell a whole lot more than inexperienced ones.

So to conclude, CHRIS8, if you can disprove all of my points, I owe you an apology, and likewise if you cannot disprove all of my points, you owe me a sincere apology, that I will gracefully accept and acknowledge.

Regards to all,
Eric.
 

grataku

Member
2000-12-31 9:31 am
-
"Qualifiers
Ok, to clarify the reasons for my posts in the spike thread, I offer these quotes:"

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

"COWANRG- "even cd players have error-correction and you could shake most modern transports and the sound would still get there the same. equipment is NOT effected by movement, let alone small tiny vibrations. think about it, HOW COULD THAT POSSIBLY CHANGE ANYTHING ? with records i could understand, but not with solid state...""

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

"CHRIS8 - "Spikes on electronics? Improving sound? On solid state/digital equipment this is a myth. No evidence to support this. Speculation.""
""You offer no evidence, data, or rational reasoning. ONLY PURE SPECULATION. If you wish to state these things it is perfectly ok, but simply do not try to pass them as facts, qualify your statement and simpy admit it is your OPINION BASED ON ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE.""

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

""The above quotes were in response to this paragraph of mine -
"1 - Try running a 1000W audio system in your house and then tell me that acoustic feedback does not influence.
2 - Worst case is that this can cause a CDP to mistrack.
3 - Lesser case is that minor mistracking will cause enough errors for the dsp to have to go into interpolation mode, and this is audible because of temporary halving in bandwidth.
4 - Further effects are caused by high servo stage currents causing modulation of the DSP stage power supplies and consequent jitter production, and modulation of the audio power supplies causing further artifacts.
5 - Try running a high gain audio system and try tapping pcbs and electrolytics - you will be horrified.
6 - Open your CTV and tap the pcb and you will see temporary picture disturbances.
7 - Tube equipment is of course worse in this sensitivity.
8 - This is all about microphonics, nodal points, and tuning."""

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

""So, I will give some qualifiers for these points of mine as follows -
1 - When I have run such a system in my house, everything in the room including the walls vibrates bigtime, including the audio equipment, so much so, that to enable correct tracking of my CDP, I HAD to mount the CDP on foam blocks and place telephone blocks on top.
2 - As above.
3 - Uncorrectable data errors, caused by gross mistracking, will cause the CDP DSP to go into interpolation mode.
The next uncorrectable error response is momentary muting.
4 - Typical CDP players suffer power supply interactions, due to the servo stages drawing heavy (and noisey) currents.
Modulation of the DSP power supply will cause the crystal typically internal oscillator stage to exhibit timing errors - jitter.
This is a major reason for dedicated clock modules enabling a cleaner audio output.'''

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

""Modulation of the DAC power supplies will cause audio band artifacts.
Modulation of the audio output filter stages will cause audio band artifacts.
5 - For example tapping an audio mixing desk (high gain device) will cause an audible output.
6 - Television tuner stages contain oscillator and tuned stages that suffer parasitic couplings and loads that change with physical movements of components.
VCR head amps stages are mechanically sensitive also.
7 - Every thermionic tube that I have tapped causes an audible output.
8 - By this I mean that the above microphonics characteristics are altered by changes in mechanical nodal mounting points - this is tuning.""

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

""Study, experience and discussion with others, both here on this forum and in person, confirm all of the above points.
If anybody would like me to further elaborate on any of the above points, by all means please ask.
If anybody can show me that any of the above points is not correct, by all means please do so.""

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

""The above information I gave sincerely, and was met by entirely sarcastic remarks such as - ""

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

""CHRIS8 - "I have been meaning to drop a hair dryer into the bathtub while bathing, to find out what the results REALLY are."
ME - "Not much really - if you have a ELB you end up with a sodden hairdryer."
CHRIS8 - "Ah, another assumption, with no reason for. So IT will be safe, because you have assumed nesecarry safety circuit. Thank you for your insight, and for explaining ALL of your arguments."
ME - "I stated experimental conditions ie - ELB."
ME - ""Also your title says 'moderator' - is this really setting a good example for acceptable behaviour around here ?."
EVEN MORE SARCASM AND RUDENESS FOLLOWS.
CHRIS8 - "Yes, sorry. I will(not really) consult you on the proper 'conduct' for now on."
CHRIS8 - "Politeness? I have made no attacks on one's person."
CHRIS8 - "Sincerely, I have no desire to continually argue. It wastes everyone's time. But I usually can't stand to see biased opinion stated as fact."""

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

"So the conclusion of this is that if my above points are true (and I know this to be the case), then by definition the facts that I give are indeed not 'biased opinion', and this then gives the finding that CHRIS8 is indeed argueing and wasting everyone's time (and damaging the spirit of this forum).''

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

"The reason that I asked for CHRIS8's level of technical training and knowledge is to establish if he does have the required credentials whilst making issue of my technical points.
When politely asked these questions again, CHRIS8 states that my points are irrelevant, and refuses to divulge his training."

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

"Mr CHRIS8 has previously made great issue of objectivism and double blind testing, however he seems not to realise that BD testing is not infallible, and that not all audible effects are measurable, because of lack of testing resoloution or error in methodology.
As I see it Audio reproduction is an applied science, in addition to subjectivism, and that experienced ears can tell a whole lot more than inexperienced ones."

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

"So to conclude, CHRIS8, if you can disprove all of my points, I owe you an apology, and likewise if you cannot disprove all of my points, you owe me a sincere apology, that I will gracefully accept and acknowledge."

Yes now I see it! CHRIS bad, Mrfeedback good, I am sorry!

Ahhh! That was a relevant reply to an even more relevant post, wasn't it?
MrFeedback do you think that anyone in his or her right mind is going to read that bloody post of yours?? The only reason for writing something like this is self psychotherapy. I seriously recommend professional help.
 
Hi Grataku, Therapy is neither required, nor the issue.
In addition I do not have negative feelings toward CHRIS8,
but I do have issues with his communications when he makes assertions about lack of evidence, data or rational reasoning, when my points are correct and provable.
Then the sarcastic type comments, and then when it comes down to it, he will not divulge his technical learning.
I already understood that he is lacking in this area, and his responses amply prove it.
It is a common tactic to attack when the person under scrutiny has not the technical knowhow required.
When many people are saying that items are affected by acoustic feedback, then in at least some cases it is true.
I merely gave the mechanisms by which it occurs.
It costs nothing at all for him to be humble, or indeed to ask for more information, but he chose to big note himself and try to show my information as wrong.
He failed.

Eric.
 
moderator speaking

mrfeedback,
somehow i have the faint memory i wrote you an email this morning. :(

Do you think any other member than you is interested into crawling thru the details humbling poor you? Do you think this bandwidth here is justified in any way? Do you think it is aligned with what i asked you for? With any of those points?

Methinks, no to all questions! :mad:
You insist on continueing a closed thread in another thread to prove you are right in this case. Which IMO is continued offending of the moderator who considered this action to be necessary. Your behaviour proves his judgement.

Why don't you settle your private struggles with Chris8 off-public? Is it that difficult?

I regret to have to close this thread, too.
Possible consequences to come.
-----------------------------------------
All,
we moderators are musing and caring a lot at the moment how this site can be made again the neat pleace it used to be. As you all, we are human beings and human beings can fail. Particularly if they are not yet used to their new duty.

So: the best you all can do is:
ignore offending, upsetting, boring, lazy posts and let them and their posters drown in a cone of silence.
Do not give anything annoying you a platform of attention
Not even complain about it. Simply back out !!


And if you feel offended or your threshold of pain is reached, then report it to a moderator in private !! . Even if one moderator may appear to be the cause. There are other moderators around. Help us moderators to keep the gunk off the forum. Please!

Keeping the place neat and inhabitable for us all has priority one.
Carressing the ego of mother's spoiled little darling has priority 8 or 9 in best case, no matter how justified it may look.
 
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