Midbass, is it possible to get any from a FR?

So I have recently listened to some great car audio systems, something I have not head in quite some time. We all know that it's easy to get good bass in a car. Midbass is where many sound systems fall flat. Now that I have heard midbass so dynamic it makes you flinch in a car, I want to do it in my house. What I want to know is if it is possible to get tight and precise midbass from a full range driver or if that is just asking to much from a single driver.
 

LCole

Member
2009-08-25 2:50 am
Try rear firing transmission line cabinets placed near the corners of the room. Move around to taste.

db1plusa.jpg


I've built some speakers similar to these using just a 4.5 full range driver in place of the woofer. Could probably have used the helper tweeter but still amazing what they do for a low priced, minimum effort build. Good bass extension - just my opinion but they seem to hold up well on jazz, blues, adult contempory guitar and bass solos-- with not much lacking throughout the mid bass region. I'm not sure if I can recommend these speakers for complex music such as rock and metal, but then again maybe that fault lies more in the driver rather then the design itself.

If you've got some full range drivers and some scrap lying about (I think mine were roughly 11 x 6 1/4 x 9 with ~ 40" line length) and only a couple hours to kill, build yourself a set. Leave one side open so you have access to the line as there seems be a million ways to stuff these things to taste.
 
Now that I have heard midbass so dynamic it makes you flinch in a car, I want to do it in my house. What I want to know is if it is possible to get tight and precise midbass from a full range driver or if that is just asking to much from a single driver.

I think you have guessed the answer. I bet there are many "full-range" systems that are running with super tweeters and subwoofers. I think that many drivers that are called full-range should really be called wide-band, because there are limits to the range over which a particular driver will perform best.

Back to car bass in the home. The only time I have heard dynamics in a home system approaching the best that I have heard in a car was in a high end 5.1 home theatre system comprising big B&W front, centre and rear speakers (the rears were floorstanders) and two subwoofers. This tells me that it will take a lot (cost and effort-wise) to get equivalent performance in the home. Specifically, I think, because the typical HT/audio room in a house is so lossy acoustically in comparison with a car. For instance, car systems seem to have much more power vs. SPL on hand in comparison to home systems; this is already a plus for dynamics. Bass in a car is more tactile due to the apparent pressurisation that the cabin experiences (I say apparent because this is only my unproven theory based on subjective observation; other more knowledgeable can comment on what causes the effect).

The short answer to your question, I believe, is: "With much difficulty".
 

LCole

Member
2009-08-25 2:50 am
If you have the space- build a small room using the aproximate area of a van interior. Load it up with your 'dream sound' audio componants and have fun. For added realism you can loosely screw a license plate to the door of your new audio enclosure for that added realism and hope you have a very understanding significant other.

Snarky? Maybe. But could possibly work.

Earlier post, I was defining mid bass as being in the 60- 100hz region. My bad. My little monitors have a useable low range but not likely to satisfy if trying to create a car's interior.
 
Given the car analogy & the 'flinching', I would assume we're talking midbass as in roughly the octave 60Hz - 120Hz, where the majority of bass energy in rock (prog. & some metal aside), & a lot of classical (concert grands & organ music aside) is concentrated.

Equivalent to a car? I'd say almost impossible to achieve in a house with one driver, sans a ruddy big horn. Air volume is too great. Wideband with a couple of sealed 15in pro-audio woofers might get in the region, depending on the size room in question & how well damped it is.
 
I would assume we're talking midbass as in roughly the octave 60Hz - 120Hz, where the majority of bass energy in rock (prog. & some metal aside), & a lot of classical (concert grands & organ music aside) is concentrated.

half-n-half

20-40 Low Bass
40-80 Mid Bass
80-160 Upper Bass
160-2500 mid range (4 octaves)
2500-20k treble (3 octaves)

dave
 
If you have the space- build a small room using the aproximate area of a van interior. Load it up with your 'dream sound' audio componants and have fun. For added realism you can loosely screw a license plate to the door of your new audio enclosure for that added realism and hope you have a very understanding significant other.

Snarky? Maybe. But could possibly work.

Earlier post, I was defining mid bass as being in the 60- 100hz region. My bad. My little monitors have a useable low range but not likely to satisfy if trying to create a car's interior.

Given the car analogy & the 'flinching', I would assume we're talking midbass as in roughly the octave 60Hz - 120Hz, where the majority of bass energy in rock (prog. & some metal aside), & a lot of classical (concert grands & organ music aside) is concentrated.

Equivalent to a car? I'd say almost impossible to achieve in a house with one driver, sans a ruddy big horn. Air volume is too great. Wideband with a couple of sealed 15in pro-audio woofers might get in the region, depending on the size room in question & how well damped it is.



FWIW, I think these are both saying the same thing


now, for my own exercise in snark - the quest to translate any of the "qualities" of a car audio system in a home environment is setting the bar rather low, doncha think?
 

LCole

Member
2009-08-25 2:50 am
I was being snarky as I live across the street from a "Johnny-one-note" whose bandpass sub can be heard all hours of the day. Thanks to the doppler effect and a loosely attached license plate that serves as his external tweeter, it is easy enough to determine his comings and goings.

All kidding aside, I think DJ's request is reasonable- can a FR driver produce a decent mid bass sound similar to those heard in a car.

My thoughts on this are yes if you were getting that sound from a set of FR speakers in a car, it could probably be reproduced in the interior of a house although you would have to be able to reproduce all other aspects of the car interior as well, including volume, damping, etc.

I suspect there are several componants working in concert to produce that mid bass so I imagine it would be much easier to augment a FR speaker with bass back-up (or super tweets if you like those airy highs cars seem to have).

Having never fooled around in a well damped smalll room with full-rangers though, I'm not in any position to say 'it can't be done" .
 
now, for my own exercise in snark - the quest to translate any of the "qualities" of a car audio system in a home environment is setting the bar rather low, doncha think?

Hehe. Typical response from someone who has not heard a well sorted out car system. I once held the same view but was made to eat my words when I auditioned a colleague's autosound system some years ago. Interesting thing was that all he had done was to used good quality components and rule of thumb. The thought of what was further possible in the hands of an experienced, knowledgeable installer made my discovery all the more remarkable. I have since heard other good installations (some better, some worse). Of course, the car environment has its own set of challenges, but that tactile bass effect is definitely one where the auto cabin has an advantage over domestic rooms.
 
half-n-half

20-40 Low Bass
40-80 Mid Bass
80-160 Upper Bass
160-2500 mid range (4 octaves)
2500-20k treble (3 octaves)

dave

Yeah, my primitive way of classifying / viewing things unfortunately. Works for me though as I tend to view it overall in terms of our critical hearing BW. So I stick with the old Bell Labs definition:
Telephone band (nee midrange) = 200Hz - 4KHz.
Everything below that = bass
Everything above that = treble

& then divided up from there into general zones of interest. For the LF, I usually base it on power requirements in, say, typical orchestral or rock music. Not particularly refined admittedly.
 
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When I say midbass I probably should be saying mid-upper bass. The system I was listening to had a pair of eighteen sound 8" midbasses in the doors and was running image dynamics mini horns with B&C DE500 compression drivers. This car was the most impressive SQ setup I have heard in about 10 years. If you guys want to know more about it, you can see it on the parts express website, it's the car that one first place at their sound off. The owner used the 11th track on the focal demo cd series, named improvisation. The dynamics of the system made it sound like a real drum was being played right in front of you. It had the same snap, sound, and gut impact as a real set of drums. This is something that many audio systems have trouble getting right in both home and car. I am sure with a big enough multi-way setup pushing large amounts of power I could get the same sound. What I don't know is if a single full-range driver can do the same. You hear about how full range drivers in horns have amazing dynamics, I have not yet heard a pair of horns in home to know if it even compares.
 

freddi

Member
Paid Member
2005-08-16 4:21 pm
I like drums so Karlson couplers keep excursion low, output high relative to the driver. A big front horn and good subs might be great.

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[IMGDEAD]http://a.imageshack.us/img828/3264/k10bofu1web.jpg[/IMGDEAD]
[IMGDEAD]http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/8518/nirvanax15.jpg[/IMGDEAD]

I've had/have Edgarhorns, Klipschorns, Sentry IV horns, reflex and would probably pick the Karlson including
this little 15" EVM15B coupler with slotted waveguide over them for good drum sounds (it could use a good tapped horn sub)
-highhat and cymbals are very good with the slotted waveguide- it can play the real dynamic of a drumkit while
the fullrange will be on the edge of meltdown
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