300B was 10$ in 1950.
How exactly is 30$ too high and silly?
You gotta chill with the personal opinions you're confusing for facts.
With the money one makes today, we could buy a whole entire town for that sort of money, so its nice to know that 300B isn't well out of reach
I used to buy into the opinion that different tubes don't sound different, until I properly tried them. Numbers on a distortion analyzer says nothing when the distortion products stretch far into painful territory with NFB
I rather listen to Class D than listen to push pull
Hi DJDestiny,
I am comparing what those tubes were worth as NOS a while ago to now. That is far beyond inflation.
As for sounding different - sure. It is the characteristics of the tube in that circuit. You can measure the two tubes and see they are different and of course they will sound different. Guitar amps are a great example, but they are different from most home amplifiers.
An off-spec tube will always have higher distortion than a tube on spec in a properly designed circuit. I'm not talking about looking at a THD meter pointer either.
This discussion has little to do with the difference a mesh plate tube makes with a solid or punched plate though. It is so far off topic it's funny.
I am comparing what those tubes were worth as NOS a while ago to now. That is far beyond inflation.
As for sounding different - sure. It is the characteristics of the tube in that circuit. You can measure the two tubes and see they are different and of course they will sound different. Guitar amps are a great example, but they are different from most home amplifiers.
An off-spec tube will always have higher distortion than a tube on spec in a properly designed circuit. I'm not talking about looking at a THD meter pointer either.
This discussion has little to do with the difference a mesh plate tube makes with a solid or punched plate though. It is so far off topic it's funny.
So... NOS tubes that were unwanted and manufactured long ago with no guarantee compared to new production tubes with modern techniques, yeah sounds like a apples to apples comparison. Totally.
It's like 2 identical cows brought up in a range, they will have different beef marbling, nothing is ever identical. Making two tubes sound the same is intentionally making one worse than the other, simple as that
It's like 2 identical cows brought up in a range, they will have different beef marbling, nothing is ever identical. Making two tubes sound the same is intentionally making one worse than the other, simple as that
No, I used to sell those tubes (NOS) when I worked at a parts jobber .. authorized distributor. Back then they were just tubes, the term NOS was unheard of.
Those tubes were overstock that wasn't sold. Service people bought them, and when they stopped working, they sold them off. I have a fair amount of various NOS, boxed tubes. No warranty, sure. They are long out, but prime manufacture. We also saw quite a lot of really poor quality tubes from sources you really never knew where.
For modern tubes, I greatly prefer products from the Reflector factory. Guess where they are from? More consistent than the better tubes made in the 1960's (tube production in the west had pretty much stopped). Some up to the very early 1970's. Most reproduction tubes I had seen were not very good. Probably better today, but a 2A3 is horrible expensive for good ones. I haven't seen 45's.
Anyway, the Reflector tubes have far greater consistency than tubes made years ago. Chemistry and machines are better today. A proper circuit with feedback evens things out, that is why feedback is used. If the circuit is bad, feedback won't help.
This exchange has exactly zero to do with mesh plate tubes. I was just answering your comments. to clarify.
Those tubes were overstock that wasn't sold. Service people bought them, and when they stopped working, they sold them off. I have a fair amount of various NOS, boxed tubes. No warranty, sure. They are long out, but prime manufacture. We also saw quite a lot of really poor quality tubes from sources you really never knew where.
For modern tubes, I greatly prefer products from the Reflector factory. Guess where they are from? More consistent than the better tubes made in the 1960's (tube production in the west had pretty much stopped). Some up to the very early 1970's. Most reproduction tubes I had seen were not very good. Probably better today, but a 2A3 is horrible expensive for good ones. I haven't seen 45's.
Anyway, the Reflector tubes have far greater consistency than tubes made years ago. Chemistry and machines are better today. A proper circuit with feedback evens things out, that is why feedback is used. If the circuit is bad, feedback won't help.
This exchange has exactly zero to do with mesh plate tubes. I was just answering your comments. to clarify.
Mesh plate tubes like mesh 300b, which are used by those seeking the sound from DHTs that they require and prefer, are much more likely to be used in circuits with no feedback. That's a design choice common with triode amps, particularly SET amps.
So why are you saying "a proper circuit with feedback"? How is that relevant?
So why are you saying "a proper circuit with feedback"? How is that relevant?
If you're so insistent a circuit is the problem, go design a SE then.
And don't tell me you can only do push pull. I haven't heard one that i decided to turn off and leave after a few minutes.
My PC setup right now is a Class D and I don't mind it at all but they are also sensitive to inductor quality, in the same way tubes are and can be and if adhering to TI's datasheets is not the move then what is? According to what you say in the past the manufacturer should know best 😃
And I can keep going on, if speakers can be made to sound all the same with "proper circuitry" then why do the DSP speakers all sound so dead?
The response is there and flat but it sounds completely dead. I prefer to trust my ears. Full range speakers also do something no graph will ever say.
In other words, everything you're saying is irrelevant. You can never iron out differences. Just as all car tyres are different and accomodating for all car tyres to feel the same on the same car means the setup has been compromised for lesser performance.
Same deal. Listen to audio with your ears, not your eyes. If Class D was truly everything I need and is better than tubes, I would be happy because I don't need to plonk down money but in the end, it sounds better but absolutely not push pull A or AB.
Class D is far smaller, less power hungry, far cheaper and still sounds more dynamic than tubes in push pull A or AB but SET sounds better to me without question. So why 300B or GU50? For what? GU50 is very cheap but Class D is still cheaper
And I wouldn't have to work with deadly voltages. Yet I'm here with 300B and GU50
Andy, I don't care how you use mesh plates tubes. That isn't the discussion at all, not even close. I'd take a pair of McIntosh MC60 amps over any SET as most people's clear preference in tube amplifiers. DHT doesn't matter, and they are a fad. You dragged this discussion in a direction it was never intended to go in, nor matters to the original query.
Hi DJDestiny,
Again, nothing to do with mesh plate tubes. Argue your preference elsewhere.
I design tube amps, I've worked on every kind for decades, including new DHT SETs. I design and build solid state types as well. So I have a pretty balanced experience. I have never said anything but what you want is a preference (which is okay). If it is a SET, your preference happens to be in the minority.
My car has class D amplifiers. As soon as it is out of warranty I'm installing my Nakamichi class AB power amps. My bluetooth / WiFI speaker used in the back yard sounds pretty good, but high fidelity it isn't. What it is, is the right technology for the intended use. This has zero to do with mesh plates.
What I am saying is irrelevant to you. Doesn't bother me one bit. It is relevant to the market, and each intended use has a technology that suits it. Your examples are actually focused on differences, and yes., I choose tires carefully. Not once have I ever suggested your examples are just "sameness". You have.
So folks, read the thread title and ask yourself if your comments fit the thread title. I've been commenting as a member - which I am allowed to do.
Hi DJDestiny,
Again, nothing to do with mesh plate tubes. Argue your preference elsewhere.
I design tube amps, I've worked on every kind for decades, including new DHT SETs. I design and build solid state types as well. So I have a pretty balanced experience. I have never said anything but what you want is a preference (which is okay). If it is a SET, your preference happens to be in the minority.
My car has class D amplifiers. As soon as it is out of warranty I'm installing my Nakamichi class AB power amps. My bluetooth / WiFI speaker used in the back yard sounds pretty good, but high fidelity it isn't. What it is, is the right technology for the intended use. This has zero to do with mesh plates.
What I am saying is irrelevant to you. Doesn't bother me one bit. It is relevant to the market, and each intended use has a technology that suits it. Your examples are actually focused on differences, and yes., I choose tires carefully. Not once have I ever suggested your examples are just "sameness". You have.
So folks, read the thread title and ask yourself if your comments fit the thread title. I've been commenting as a member - which I am allowed to do.
And I am allowed to say that you have not been on topic ever at all, if ever
I've had mesh plate EF86 variant (both mesh and non mesh) preamp specifically designed for the tube and they sounded different, even with a plate load CCS. That's it.
It definitely sounded better and if its true that push pull is better, 1 tube is better served with a plate load CCS
Trioded measures lowest distortion on top of that
I've had mesh plate EF86 variant (both mesh and non mesh) preamp specifically designed for the tube and they sounded different, even with a plate load CCS. That's it.
It definitely sounded better and if its true that push pull is better, 1 tube is better served with a plate load CCS
Trioded measures lowest distortion on top of that
We were all ONE HUNDRED PERCENT back on topic this whole time until you entered the thread, and you did it again. Again YOU are the participant who keeps taking the thread way off topic, and then reply "it's so off topic it's funny" and threaten to close the thread.
"Andy, I don't care how you use mesh plates tubes. That isn't the discussion at all, not even close. I'd take a pair of McIntosh MC60 amps over any SET as most people's clear preference in tube amplifiers. DHT doesn't matter, and they are a fad. You dragged this discussion in a direction it was never intended to go in, nor matters to the original query."
I started this thread so I think I have a clear idea of where I intended it to go. A number of the mesh tubes we have discussed are DHTs like 300b, so of course DHTs are relevant. You don't like them and call them a "fad" which just continues your off topic tirade against "old tubes" and everyone that uses them, and shouldn't because they should be reserved for radio restorers. As DJDestiny points out, you have been off topic throughout the thread. Now you're talking about your car and at the same time telling everyone else to stay on topic. As you know, you are not moderating this thread, so it's not up to you to tell us what direction it should go in. Once again we are wasting posts just responding to your idiosyncrasies.
As the person who started this thread I'd welcome comments on various other mesh plate tubes like the rectifier tubes, AZ1, AZ11 and others. I've used those for many years and found the mesh plates different from the solid plate versions. Clearly others do as well because they sell for 3 or 4 times the price of the solid plates. There's been discussion on these kind of mesh plate rectifiers on several threads, here and on Audio Asylum and Head-Fi for instance.
I started this thread so I think I have a clear idea of where I intended it to go. A number of the mesh tubes we have discussed are DHTs like 300b, so of course DHTs are relevant. You don't like them and call them a "fad" which just continues your off topic tirade against "old tubes" and everyone that uses them, and shouldn't because they should be reserved for radio restorers. As DJDestiny points out, you have been off topic throughout the thread. Now you're talking about your car and at the same time telling everyone else to stay on topic. As you know, you are not moderating this thread, so it's not up to you to tell us what direction it should go in. Once again we are wasting posts just responding to your idiosyncrasies.
As the person who started this thread I'd welcome comments on various other mesh plate tubes like the rectifier tubes, AZ1, AZ11 and others. I've used those for many years and found the mesh plates different from the solid plate versions. Clearly others do as well because they sell for 3 or 4 times the price of the solid plates. There's been discussion on these kind of mesh plate rectifiers on several threads, here and on Audio Asylum and Head-Fi for instance.
Andy thanks for mentioning them, I wouldn't have known they existed otherwise, I thought it was just signal tubes until last week
Oh yes, mesh plate rectifiers have quite a following. I have some AZ1 and AZ11 if you're interested. Good for preamps and headphone amps.
Where you intended Andy, is not laid out in the title.
This is what you asked in post #1
This is what you asked in post #1
So okay, now we know what you didn't say.
If all threads had to follow the first post, they would fizzle out within seconds.
Gotcha. If I ever pop by britain I know who to look for! There's a real possibility of me dropping into britain sometime soon
We were all talking about mesh plate tubes, which most are DHT types. So you reply:
"I have a huge problem with people wasting no longer made tubes for new builds. I restore equipment that actually needs those tubes. The prices have been driven up and supply diminished by wasting what is a scarce resource. You can do so much better, I mean telephone companies figured this out in the 1920's and 1930's. Later designs really sound better and use technologically advanced tubes. Wasting a DHT old tube number to build something that doesn't perform well, or even as those circuits did back then doesn't makes sense - except that you can."
That was the start of the thread getting pulled off topic, which was YOU. They you take this further off topic.
"Yes, newer tube and circuit designs perform much better than any DHT or early heater type tube., I know, I was apprenticed on that stuff and restore very old electronics." "I grew up with this stuff, was apprenticed on tube equipment. Later I serviced the modern interpretations and still do. I am exposed to the supposed best quite often, and I have a very good sound system on the bench I can audition this equipment on." "I have built a TON of stuff, and still do. I've built and repaired just about everything. Having formal and apprenticeship training, I have been forced to be very practical and factual." "When I was young, I knew some real tube design engineers, long since passed away. They taught me the stark truth about tubes just about everything else with industry." "From long experience and training from other techs (mentors), I state what has been seen and proved over the years as factual. "I design tube amps, I've worked on every kind for decades, including new DHT SETs. I design and build solid state types as well. So I have a pretty balanced experience. I have never said anything but what you want is a preference (which is okay). If it is a SET, your preference happens to be in the minority."
Multiple bragging posts about your personal work life, which no one here cares about, lots of opinions posted as facts and NONE of what you have posted in this thread is on topic in any way shape or form.
"Andy, I don't care how you use mesh plates tubes. That isn't the discussion at all, not even close. I'd take a pair of McIntosh MC60 amps over any SET as most people's clear preference in tube amplifiers. DHT doesn't matter and they are a fad. You dragged this discussion in a direction it was never intended to go in, nor matters to the original query."
So we were all back to discussing mesh plate tubes, so you start talking about MC60 amps, that DHT is a fad. You start talking about inflation, YOU were the one who drug SE vs PP into this thread! NOTHING you have brought into this discussion at any point has ANYTHING to do with mesh plate tubes. If you want the thread to stay on topic, simply stop posting replies here.
As @Rod Coleman mentioned way back in the thread, there are more modern IDH tubes with mesh anodes; he mentioned EF183, EF184, 30F5, 6F23.
Perhaps it could be interesting if Andy updated the first post with all the known mesh plate variants for future reference?
Seeing the list of tubes that have mesh plate variants could help single out the secret sauce they have to offer? If it is to reduce secondary emission by improving heat radiation/reducing absorption, then perhaps a test with and without a metal sleeve over the tube could be interesting?
The difficulty this thread has had, has been pitching the 'technical amplification' fraternity vs the 'music amplification' brotherhood. Surely there must be some property of a tube that can be agreed to be contributing to the 'flavour', for want of a better word, that can also be quantified in an experiment? Otherwise it is just an ideological minefield.
My personal view is phase shift across the frequency range, to which our ears are very sensitive. That contributes to 'staging', and is primarily because a lot of these tubes are used in classic and simple designs, with minimal component counts.
Perhaps it could be interesting if Andy updated the first post with all the known mesh plate variants for future reference?
Seeing the list of tubes that have mesh plate variants could help single out the secret sauce they have to offer? If it is to reduce secondary emission by improving heat radiation/reducing absorption, then perhaps a test with and without a metal sleeve over the tube could be interesting?
The difficulty this thread has had, has been pitching the 'technical amplification' fraternity vs the 'music amplification' brotherhood. Surely there must be some property of a tube that can be agreed to be contributing to the 'flavour', for want of a better word, that can also be quantified in an experiment? Otherwise it is just an ideological minefield.
My personal view is phase shift across the frequency range, to which our ears are very sensitive. That contributes to 'staging', and is primarily because a lot of these tubes are used in classic and simple designs, with minimal component counts.
A list of mesh plate tubes would be a good idea. We can start this now and see how many we can identify. I know very little about pentodes like the various EF ones so maybe others can supply those. What I know are these mesh variants. Be aware that some could be perforated plates rather than mesh.
27
24
AZ1
AZ11
TF RGN2004
RGN1064
Sophia 274A and 274B
300B
2a3
EML45
Sophia 45
Sophia 101D
Sophia 250D
Sophia 206
EL50 Mullard
EL33 Mesh
WE310E
MHD4
MH4
NU 35/51
I found a whole thread on mesh plate rectifiers which I seem to have started....
27
24
AZ1
AZ11
TF RGN2004
RGN1064
Sophia 274A and 274B
300B
2a3
EML45
Sophia 45
Sophia 101D
Sophia 250D
Sophia 206
EL50 Mullard
EL33 Mesh
WE310E
MHD4
MH4
NU 35/51
I found a whole thread on mesh plate rectifiers which I seem to have started....