1. What kind of efficiency / what kind of amp?
2. What type(s) and size of cabinets can you tolerate? Can you build a horn, or does it need to be OB, TL, BR etc.
3. Any budgetary considerations?
4. What styles of music?
5. Why limit yourself to those two? There are lots and lots of good 8" drivers. Does it need to be 8"? There are some amazing drivers somewhat smaller (and bigger). If you don't need the sensitivity, there are some drivers which are very easy to work with.
2. What type(s) and size of cabinets can you tolerate? Can you build a horn, or does it need to be OB, TL, BR etc.
3. Any budgetary considerations?
4. What styles of music?
5. Why limit yourself to those two? There are lots and lots of good 8" drivers. Does it need to be 8"? There are some amazing drivers somewhat smaller (and bigger). If you don't need the sensitivity, there are some drivers which are very easy to work with.
I would advise you to stick with the higher efficiency paper cone drivers. The liveliness of these will make the whole thing sound much more real besides being able to play louder. Of course, the trade-off is in the bass region, where the high eff drivers roll off much quicker. I've had success with a voight pipe cabinet with the AN8... it gets down to 50-60 hz.
If you have the money, go for the Lowthers but higher models, otherwise, as a start, the audio nirvanas are perfect. Do get the model with the phase plug.
If you have the money, go for the Lowthers but higher models, otherwise, as a start, the audio nirvanas are perfect. Do get the model with the phase plug.
I just can't resist 
The Lowther units are simply no good, imo. Wait, let me try to explain! It is true, they are among the world's very best at resolving your music. If it's there, you will hear it.
But that's not enough. Doppler limitations aside, I expect any driver to sound good with all types of music and at low and high volumes. The Lowther (and Fostex) drivers simply fall apart on music with energy in the upper midrange, which is a big chunk of our music. Yes, upper mids are the problem area for all drivers, but these drivers have little or no engineering to combat the problem. They are built to be as light as possible without regard for response flatness or cone breakup issues. They impress quickly but annoy 'down the road'. They are 100% failures! So we're talking about saxophones, female vocals and electric guitar. All you get is painful shrieking mush unless you listen at low volume. Many people who love these drivers consciously or unconsciously modify their listening to exclude these types of music. That's why they move toward jazz, for example. They also use amplification based around tubes because the 'warmth' or harmonic distortions of vacuum tube sound will help reduce the problems a little.
Now the AN drivers aren't free of these issues. But they are light years ahead! They have good damping in the cone construction. They play loud and sound great! With everything. No, they do not resolve as much detail. But the difference is slight. And they cost way less. They are also more durable and contain no foams to rot. They have a flatter response.
No, I don't work for CSA
So I will summarize: buy Lowther or Fostex if you want to be impressed quick and if you want to resell them within a week. Or if you want to tell yourself the problems are fixable with enclosures, treatments, wires, amps and months or years of useless effort.
Or try the AN S8 and still be loving them 2 years from now in the simple whatever you hammered together in 3 hours.
The Lowther units are simply no good, imo. Wait, let me try to explain! It is true, they are among the world's very best at resolving your music. If it's there, you will hear it.
But that's not enough. Doppler limitations aside, I expect any driver to sound good with all types of music and at low and high volumes. The Lowther (and Fostex) drivers simply fall apart on music with energy in the upper midrange, which is a big chunk of our music. Yes, upper mids are the problem area for all drivers, but these drivers have little or no engineering to combat the problem. They are built to be as light as possible without regard for response flatness or cone breakup issues. They impress quickly but annoy 'down the road'. They are 100% failures! So we're talking about saxophones, female vocals and electric guitar. All you get is painful shrieking mush unless you listen at low volume. Many people who love these drivers consciously or unconsciously modify their listening to exclude these types of music. That's why they move toward jazz, for example. They also use amplification based around tubes because the 'warmth' or harmonic distortions of vacuum tube sound will help reduce the problems a little.
Now the AN drivers aren't free of these issues. But they are light years ahead! They have good damping in the cone construction. They play loud and sound great! With everything. No, they do not resolve as much detail. But the difference is slight. And they cost way less. They are also more durable and contain no foams to rot. They have a flatter response.
No, I don't work for CSA
So I will summarize: buy Lowther or Fostex if you want to be impressed quick and if you want to resell them within a week. Or if you want to tell yourself the problems are fixable with enclosures, treatments, wires, amps and months or years of useless effort.
Or try the AN S8 and still be loving them 2 years from now in the simple whatever you hammered together in 3 hours.
Hi All,
Thanks you very much for your valuable infos. Since I am a newbie so I would like you to help to choose a driver as well as suitable cabinet (I have a cayin A88T amp, Carat I57 CD and amp combo, Rega P3,P7, Graham slee V era gold). Most of my time, I listen Classic, Jazz, Pop, Rock,..., can you please advice which driver and cabinet that I should buy.
Thanks
Thanks you very much for your valuable infos. Since I am a newbie so I would like you to help to choose a driver as well as suitable cabinet (I have a cayin A88T amp, Carat I57 CD and amp combo, Rega P3,P7, Graham slee V era gold). Most of my time, I listen Classic, Jazz, Pop, Rock,..., can you please advice which driver and cabinet that I should buy.
Thanks
Yea InclinedPlane, it would help the community if you could answer this.
Have you tried the Fostex Sigma series. I think they are among the best (for the price) provided you have them in some sort of a TL cab. I have the Fostex 168Sigmas in MLTQWT and once the slight shout is taken care of (by EnAbling and proper damping) you thoroughly enjoy them. They do go down to about 50Hz and with a high damping amp (plus QWL for minimal cone movement), you can play any high energy music.
Check Nelson Pass' opinion on this driver in a voting thread buried somewhere in this forum.
Your opinion... and that's fine
In my experience, Lowthers have been on top of my short list for quite some time. I have extended experience with various Lowthers, Fostex (Modified and not), AN, and many multiway variants (Living voice, Harbeth, Triangle, etc...etc...). Lowthers are amongst the Top few if implemented correctly. Lowthers need horns that are well adapted to their caracteristics. When properly done, they beat the crap out of Fostex, AN and most other variants.
Properly corner loaded (Bigfun and Allfun horns), they are truely fullrange. My current system uses AER Mk1 in Lamhorns... Different, but not necessarely better than the Allfunhorn with Lowther DX-3 that I previously built.
Everyone should deserve the chance to hear Lowthers done right at least once...
In my experience, Lowthers have been on top of my short list for quite some time. I have extended experience with various Lowthers, Fostex (Modified and not), AN, and many multiway variants (Living voice, Harbeth, Triangle, etc...etc...). Lowthers are amongst the Top few if implemented correctly. Lowthers need horns that are well adapted to their caracteristics. When properly done, they beat the crap out of Fostex, AN and most other variants.
Properly corner loaded (Bigfun and Allfun horns), they are truely fullrange. My current system uses AER Mk1 in Lamhorns... Different, but not necessarely better than the Allfunhorn with Lowther DX-3 that I previously built.
Everyone should deserve the chance to hear Lowthers done right at least once...
I just can't resist
The Lowther units are simply no good, imo. Wait, let me try to explain! It is true, they are among the world's very best at resolving your music. If it's there, you will hear it.
But that's not enough. Doppler limitations aside, I expect any driver to sound good with all types of music and at low and high volumes. The Lowther (and Fostex) drivers simply fall apart on music with energy in the upper midrange, which is a big chunk of our music. Yes, upper mids are the problem area for all drivers, but these drivers have little or no engineering to combat the problem. They are built to be as light as possible without regard for response flatness or cone breakup issues. They impress quickly but annoy 'down the road'. They are 100% failures! So we're talking about saxophones, female vocals and electric guitar. All you get is painful shrieking mush unless you listen at low volume. Many people who love these drivers consciously or unconsciously modify their listening to exclude these types of music. That's why they move toward jazz, for example. They also use amplification based around tubes because the 'warmth' or harmonic distortions of vacuum tube sound will help reduce the problems a little.
Now the AN drivers aren't free of these issues. But they are light years ahead! They have good damping in the cone construction. They play loud and sound great! With everything. No, they do not resolve as much detail. But the difference is slight. And they cost way less. They are also more durable and contain no foams to rot. They have a flatter response.
No, I don't work for CSA
So I will summarize: buy Lowther or Fostex if you want to be impressed quick and if you want to resell them within a week. Or if you want to tell yourself the problems are fixable with enclosures, treatments, wires, amps and months or years of useless effort.
Or try the AN S8 and still be loving them 2 years from now in the simple whatever you hammered together in 3 hours.
While I respect Inclinedplane's opinion, I fear he has inadvertantly neglected to note that much of his post is his opinion only, which is not only at odds with the majority of people's experiences, but also with some rather critical facts. So. Speaking within the context of wide-band drive units:
While I am not a particular fan of Lowthers, and could not live with them unless supported with LF units or have suitable Eq applied, I haven't heard one 'fall apart' compared to any other wide band drive unit. I haven't heard a Fostex 'fall apart' either. Admittedly, I've no idea exactly what is being refered to by 'fall apart', but in no particular area have I heard one substantially inferior to any of its equivalents, including some ludicrously pricy ones. Different, yes.
I can only surmise Inclinedplane has not attempted to avail himself of any knowledge on these, because this statement is completely inaccurate. Take the new FE166En for example, which has several dips engineered into its response in the critical sibilance zones to ensure things are kept smooth; something independently noted here by Bob Brines. Lowther are somewhat more idiosyncratic, as they have different priorities in mind (efficiency is their primary goal, with other factors being secondary), and are to a large extent prisoners to the requirements entailed by their heritage. However, their efforts in developing their motor & VC designs, whizzers and plugs rather contradicts statements that they have 'little or no engineering to combat the problem.'
A (forgive me) completely untrue statement. Lowther, while partially stuck due to the need to give customers what they want yes, try to compensate as far as possible elsewhere. Fostex? Different story entirely. For a start, you might note that Fostex drive units do not in fact, always possess a lower Mms than, say, their AN equivalents. Much of the time, yes. But the FE206En for e.g. at 12.2g is heavier than the ANS8 at 11.66g. Which brings us onto response flatness & cone breakup. Let us take those two units as our examples, and compare the respective factory released FR plots. Both companies employ roughly equivalent smoothing, so there are no major issues with a rough comparison.
ANS8. Nominal sensitivity 95.28dB. Peak at ~112dB. 16.72dB difference.
FE206En. Nominal sensitivity 96dB. Peak at ~106dB. 10dB difference.
In general terms, neither has more significant variances in the response than the other, ergo by definition, the AN is rather less flat than the 206. How they can therefore be
is therefore mysterious. Especially given the thousands of people who are very happy with them and would be startled at such a pronouncement, which is frankly both insulting, and not a little patronising toward owners of these products.
I think you will discover that the majority of people who purchase such units already like such material. The choice of amplification is less to do with valves than the output impedance: Fostex & Lowther units are primarily intended to be used with amplifiers with a modest - high output impedance. Incidentally, not all valve amplifiers are 'warm' sounding, nor SS devoid of harmonic distortion. To put it mildly, these are sweeping generalisations based on cliche. For e.g., I could point out very sharp sounding valve amplifiers indeed, with what little distortion exists being predominantly 3rd order harmonic, and just as many very warm sounding, relatively high (2nd order harmonic) SS amps.
This is not a 'problem.' If a drive unit is designed for a specific function, or to work with particular components, it is not its fault if someone decides to use it with something else & unsurprisingly gets poor results. Any assertion that this somehow means it is badly designed can be dismissed as twaddle, because by analogy, this would imply that a Bentley Continental R Mulliner is somehow a bad car because unlike a Land Rover, it cannot be driven up an unpaved Scotish mountain track in a thunderstorm. Focus is not a design flaw.
I'm truly glad you like your AN drivers, but this is your opinion, not fact.
%
While I am not a particular fan of Lowthers, and could not live with them unless supported with LF units or have suitable Eq applied, I haven't heard one 'fall apart' compared to any other wide band drive unit. I haven't heard a Fostex 'fall apart' either. Admittedly, I've no idea exactly what is being refered to by 'fall apart', but in no particular area have I heard one substantially inferior to any of its equivalents, including some ludicrously pricy ones. Different, yes.
I can only surmise Inclinedplane has not attempted to avail himself of any knowledge on these, because this statement is completely inaccurate. Take the new FE166En for example, which has several dips engineered into its response in the critical sibilance zones to ensure things are kept smooth; something independently noted here by Bob Brines. Lowther are somewhat more idiosyncratic, as they have different priorities in mind (efficiency is their primary goal, with other factors being secondary), and are to a large extent prisoners to the requirements entailed by their heritage. However, their efforts in developing their motor & VC designs, whizzers and plugs rather contradicts statements that they have 'little or no engineering to combat the problem.'
A (forgive me) completely untrue statement. Lowther, while partially stuck due to the need to give customers what they want yes, try to compensate as far as possible elsewhere. Fostex? Different story entirely. For a start, you might note that Fostex drive units do not in fact, always possess a lower Mms than, say, their AN equivalents. Much of the time, yes. But the FE206En for e.g. at 12.2g is heavier than the ANS8 at 11.66g. Which brings us onto response flatness & cone breakup. Let us take those two units as our examples, and compare the respective factory released FR plots. Both companies employ roughly equivalent smoothing, so there are no major issues with a rough comparison.
ANS8. Nominal sensitivity 95.28dB. Peak at ~112dB. 16.72dB difference.
FE206En. Nominal sensitivity 96dB. Peak at ~106dB. 10dB difference.
In general terms, neither has more significant variances in the response than the other, ergo by definition, the AN is rather less flat than the 206. How they can therefore be
is therefore mysterious. Especially given the thousands of people who are very happy with them and would be startled at such a pronouncement, which is frankly both insulting, and not a little patronising toward owners of these products.
I think you will discover that the majority of people who purchase such units already like such material. The choice of amplification is less to do with valves than the output impedance: Fostex & Lowther units are primarily intended to be used with amplifiers with a modest - high output impedance. Incidentally, not all valve amplifiers are 'warm' sounding, nor SS devoid of harmonic distortion. To put it mildly, these are sweeping generalisations based on cliche. For e.g., I could point out very sharp sounding valve amplifiers indeed, with what little distortion exists being predominantly 3rd order harmonic, and just as many very warm sounding, relatively high (2nd order harmonic) SS amps.
This is not a 'problem.' If a drive unit is designed for a specific function, or to work with particular components, it is not its fault if someone decides to use it with something else & unsurprisingly gets poor results. Any assertion that this somehow means it is badly designed can be dismissed as twaddle, because by analogy, this would imply that a Bentley Continental R Mulliner is somehow a bad car because unlike a Land Rover, it cannot be driven up an unpaved Scotish mountain track in a thunderstorm. Focus is not a design flaw.
I'm truly glad you like your AN drivers, but this is your opinion, not fact.
%
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Back OT, I wholeheartedly concur with rj's comments. We can't help you choose until you give us more information about your system, room, musical preferences, type of enclosure you desire, how large & complex an enclosure you desire, & what you are hoping to achieve.
Comparing Lowther to AN is chalk & cheese really. They're in different price bands, and although both are nominally 8in wide-band drive units with whizzer cones, they have different priorities in sonic & engineering terms, so direct comparisons are difficult. Which Lowthers, and which AN drivers? In the case of the Lowthers, were you thinking about the silver voice-coil, or different phase plugs, which are options Lowther make available for all their drive units, & changes their behaviour compared to those with other options? 8ohm or 15ohm (ditto)?
Comparing Lowther to AN is chalk & cheese really. They're in different price bands, and although both are nominally 8in wide-band drive units with whizzer cones, they have different priorities in sonic & engineering terms, so direct comparisons are difficult. Which Lowthers, and which AN drivers? In the case of the Lowthers, were you thinking about the silver voice-coil, or different phase plugs, which are options Lowther make available for all their drive units, & changes their behaviour compared to those with other options? 8ohm or 15ohm (ditto)?
this is the great thing about audio..lol...
my .02 and just my opinion
The fun factor on the AN drivers are awesome.. by no means the end all be all or reference... but fun and one can easily live with them.. And I have yet to be impressed with any fostex to date.. but I always keep an open mind and want to like them... but I'd take an AN over fostex.. once again my .02
And scott hit it on the head with Lowthers being a little base shy unless either horn loaded or augmented with a bass driver.. but I have heard no fullrange come close above 300hz keeping in mind that I am talking about the "A" series only and I haven't had the pleasure of listening to a feastrex.
but resolution, tonality, just a pureness in emotion and playback that a lowther portrays better then any driver I had had the pleasure of playing with to date..
my .02 and just my opinion
The fun factor on the AN drivers are awesome.. by no means the end all be all or reference... but fun and one can easily live with them.. And I have yet to be impressed with any fostex to date.. but I always keep an open mind and want to like them... but I'd take an AN over fostex.. once again my .02
And scott hit it on the head with Lowthers being a little base shy unless either horn loaded or augmented with a bass driver.. but I have heard no fullrange come close above 300hz keeping in mind that I am talking about the "A" series only and I haven't had the pleasure of listening to a feastrex.
but resolution, tonality, just a pureness in emotion and playback that a lowther portrays better then any driver I had had the pleasure of playing with to date..
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Oh, all the major types of enclosures. Horns to wonderful things to the bass even though you won't get very low unless they are large. But no enclosure solved the inherent midrange problems.
And yes I anticipated the collective rebuttal. I also found the AER drivers' sound completely unacceptable and I'm sure feastrex would be as well.
Here's an opinion by Serenechaos; someone else not ashamed to type out the truth:
(I keep remembering the field coil feastrex nessies a couple years ago @ RMAF-- beautiful on simple material @ low volume, but broke up @ high volume. Last year, "augmented" w/ woofers, etc, they played metal & symphony loud, but not "big" but all the magic was gone... Bottom thumped like best buy special & top screeched & hurt my ears...
'beautiful on simple material on low volume'. That's Lowther. That's AER. That's FE series. That's ... what else? You know what? The Bose 301 sounds pretty darn good on simple material at low volume. A good speaker driver holds it together at high volume. And only the AN gets it nearly right. Granted, I haven't heard the TB or the Seas. Keep trying to find a workaround for life on screech planet everyone!
And yes I anticipated the collective rebuttal. I also found the AER drivers' sound completely unacceptable and I'm sure feastrex would be as well.
Here's an opinion by Serenechaos; someone else not ashamed to type out the truth:
(I keep remembering the field coil feastrex nessies a couple years ago @ RMAF-- beautiful on simple material @ low volume, but broke up @ high volume. Last year, "augmented" w/ woofers, etc, they played metal & symphony loud, but not "big" but all the magic was gone... Bottom thumped like best buy special & top screeched & hurt my ears...
'beautiful on simple material on low volume'. That's Lowther. That's AER. That's FE series. That's ... what else? You know what? The Bose 301 sounds pretty darn good on simple material at low volume. A good speaker driver holds it together at high volume. And only the AN gets it nearly right. Granted, I haven't heard the TB or the Seas. Keep trying to find a workaround for life on screech planet everyone!
Inclined, without getting into an internet ******* match which solves nothing or proves nothing.. that's your opinion.. and one that is a huge minority against many...many people..
the best analogy I can give is this:
you can have an Aston Martin DBS "Lowther" or a Corvette ZO6 "Audio Nirvana"... sure the ZO6 has brute force and is tons of fun to romp around and hit corners at lightning speed.. but at the end of the day.. you are still driving a Vette.. It will never be as refined and sophisticated as the Aston Martin...
once again... just .02
the best analogy I can give is this:
you can have an Aston Martin DBS "Lowther" or a Corvette ZO6 "Audio Nirvana"... sure the ZO6 has brute force and is tons of fun to romp around and hit corners at lightning speed.. but at the end of the day.. you are still driving a Vette.. It will never be as refined and sophisticated as the Aston Martin...
once again... just .02
Quite.
Not 'truth' Inclined old bean. Could you please stop calling your opinion / personal preferences (or those of other people) 'truth?' Opinion is fine, but it is not fact, nor truth, other than in the narrow sense that it is a view you happen to hold -in this case that you happen to prefer x over y. Fair enough. But that is still only your opinion, presented with a large amount of factually incorrect statements at that, and one which is rather at odds with the majority of other peoples' experience. Given these points, I fear you are not in the best of positions to be making an attempt at a condescending remark.
I'm glad however, that you are enjoying your lack of screech from drivers which have substantially more peaking than a direct equivalent you state is less flat in response (!), and possesses 'little or no engineering to solve the problem.' Oh well, never let the facts & all that...
Not 'truth' Inclined old bean. Could you please stop calling your opinion / personal preferences (or those of other people) 'truth?' Opinion is fine, but it is not fact, nor truth, other than in the narrow sense that it is a view you happen to hold -in this case that you happen to prefer x over y. Fair enough. But that is still only your opinion, presented with a large amount of factually incorrect statements at that, and one which is rather at odds with the majority of other peoples' experience. Given these points, I fear you are not in the best of positions to be making an attempt at a condescending remark.
I'm glad however, that you are enjoying your lack of screech from drivers which have substantially more peaking than a direct equivalent you state is less flat in response (!), and possesses 'little or no engineering to solve the problem.' Oh well, never let the facts & all that...
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You need to hear some FF85k... better yet FF85KeN
dave
I'd love to play with a set one of these days
The reason that older people gravitate away from current pop music is that after a while they grow up. The primary purpose of pop music is to p**s off their parents. This has been going on for the ~a century of recorded music. Google the "flapper" era for instance. I suppose you have heard the saying, "If it is too loud, you are too old". Add to that the fact that pop music has become more compressed and clipped during the last 15 or so years to the point that it is not much more than white noise on a decent system. I demonstrated this to my step-son not long ago with two U2 CD's one from the early '90s and the other from 2004.
The reason I don't listen to current pop is that I 1) got over aggravating my parents and 2) I like to listen to decently recorded material.
Bob
If I were building my first single-driver system, and did not require high efficiency, I would start with something like the very affordable Mark Audio CHR-70.
Or if budget permits, either the Jordan JX92S or Mark Audio Alpair 10. If efficiency is required, at an affordable price, then I would recommend some kind of Fostex (I too love the FE168E-Sigmas), or perhaps the AN's (have only heard the AN Super 12 and it was nice but could have used some taming in the application I heard).
The Lowthers do require taming (out of the box, with no compensation, there does seem to be a certain "buzzy" resonant quality) but once they are tamed, as they must be, they have a spectacular palpable "flesh and bones" quality.
This is especially true in a huge front-loaded horn like an Azurahorn 160. That horn is a massive dose of "mechanical EQ" and it transforms the Lowther into something mellow and "airy." But it must be mated to a bass cab, obviously.
Digital EQ makes all the difference for Lowthers as well, as Bob Brines' system demonstrated to me a few years ago. A flat response lets that "palpable" quality shine but it's hard for a newbie (like me) to get right. And it might not be for everyone or all types of music.
The Feastrex are a wide range and the various models all sound different to me, from mellow (D5nf) to bright and sweet (D9nf). They seem easier to tame than the Lowthers, but they are much more expensive, and they have a much smaller eco-system of cabs and users. And when a group listens to Feastrex, in my limited experience, it seems there is no perfect consensus on strengths and weaknesses. So they aren't an "easy answer" in the quest for great sound.
Or if budget permits, either the Jordan JX92S or Mark Audio Alpair 10. If efficiency is required, at an affordable price, then I would recommend some kind of Fostex (I too love the FE168E-Sigmas), or perhaps the AN's (have only heard the AN Super 12 and it was nice but could have used some taming in the application I heard).
The Lowthers do require taming (out of the box, with no compensation, there does seem to be a certain "buzzy" resonant quality) but once they are tamed, as they must be, they have a spectacular palpable "flesh and bones" quality.
This is especially true in a huge front-loaded horn like an Azurahorn 160. That horn is a massive dose of "mechanical EQ" and it transforms the Lowther into something mellow and "airy." But it must be mated to a bass cab, obviously.
Digital EQ makes all the difference for Lowthers as well, as Bob Brines' system demonstrated to me a few years ago. A flat response lets that "palpable" quality shine but it's hard for a newbie (like me) to get right. And it might not be for everyone or all types of music.
The Feastrex are a wide range and the various models all sound different to me, from mellow (D5nf) to bright and sweet (D9nf). They seem easier to tame than the Lowthers, but they are much more expensive, and they have a much smaller eco-system of cabs and users. And when a group listens to Feastrex, in my limited experience, it seems there is no perfect consensus on strengths and weaknesses. So they aren't an "easy answer" in the quest for great sound.
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