LM317s

[Jocko Homo]

Give me a break.......

Superior? To what? In terms of using op-amps and three-terminal regulators out the wazoo, maybe. And really cheap caps.

My ex-business partner was friends with the late president of Naim (sorry for his loss......as I almost suffered the same fate......). I was able to hear that $60K .......shall we say...... "signature" system of theirs.

As you would say...."Bloody awful."

As I would say......"A load of crap. Sounded so bad I had to leave the room after 2 minutes."

It came with, shall we say.......an extreme power supply for the phono stage. Yeah, really extreme. A transformer, two filter caps, and two LM317s......in T0-3 cases.

Yeah.......really extreme.

Jocko

 

[Jocko Homo]

What is the matter with me?

Seeing bandwidth wasted by your contentless posts.

So.............tell me why British audio gear is superior. I'm waiting........in particular, the above mentioned system. I have heard it, and I was NOT impressed. Especially for $60K.

Jocko

 

[Jocko Homo]

Nothing beats Burr-Brown?

No. I've used AD for years, longer than B-B. Just suggested it to you in case you never heard of them. Some of the Crystal stuff is supposed to sound very good.

What does this have to do with British gear?

Every audiophile I have ever run into, at one time or another, wished that they could have a Threshold, Krell, Levinson, Rowland, or some other big-name US amp. Never met one that said "Gee, if I only had $60K, I could buy some of that Briish stuff."

European speakers? Easy sell, over here; so it has nothing to do with the old US vs. The World thing.

Go to the Far East.......look at what sells there. They can get anything they want, and what is it that they want.....

US gear, not British.

Jocko

 

[ALW]

Jocko

It came with, shall we say.......an extreme power supply for the phono stage. Yeah, really extreme. A transformer, two filter caps, and two LM317s......in T0-3 cases.

I can think of at least one manufacturer who does exactly this, and I promise you you could not do better with the same parts sourced off-the-shelf.

Maybe you're confusing schematics with implementation.

I'm not saying for one second that you could not do better, but there is often more than meets the eye in some of this stuff.

Not magic, but engineering, before you ask

A.

 

[Jocko Homo]

Not sure I quite understand your point

So, if I made my contentious point a bit too confusing.

The $60K Naim setup....I do not know what it is called......came with an outboard power supply for the phono stage exactly as I described.

For the price of the system, and the additional price for said power supply, I would expect something MUCH better. Not so much in terms of money thrown at parts for no good reason other than to justify price. No, for something that is supposed to be the top drawer model, why does it have the same stuff one would expect to find in lower performing models?

Jocko

 

[peranders]

"Some of the Crystal stuff is supposed to sound very good."

Mr. Homo, didn't you write a while that Crystal CS43122 was crap, crap, crap? I don't understand you. This is a joke probely which I don't understand.

"What does this have to do with British gear?"

What this? In this thread I simply ask if anyone knows something about dCS. Do you mix up things?

Besides, I think europeans are not so hang up about american stuff. What about the german and french stuff? Lot's of fine equipment there. I would say that Sweden (yes!), Denmark, Germany, France and UK has lots of interesting stuff. Krell isn't the dream amp over here, only to a few.

 

[ALW]

My point

For the price of the system, and the additional price for said power supply, I would expect something MUCH better. Not so much in terms of money thrown at parts for no good reason other than to justify price. No, for something that is supposed to be the top drawer model, why does it have the same stuff one would expect to find in lower performing models?

Interesting, we are talking about exactly the same brand.

Were you to build a similar supply, using the same parts types, you would find that your one did not sound anywhere near as good.

Those parts perform much better than you think they do, but you would not be aware of this, because you have not compared with anything else, in the same situation.

I agree that one may have a right to expect more apparent technology for the money, but your view is based upon what you saw, not what you would hear if you attempted to do the same thing yourself.

It's expensive because the value added by its performance is that great. The perceived VFM depends upon the end user, and I'm not disagreeing that for the sum of money asked on emay have a right to expect more apparent design effort.

If that simple supply is better than almost anyone elses offerings though, why bother?

Andy.

 

[Jocko Homo]

Were you to.....

You don't think so?

I beg to differ.

I could do better.

And I could do better still with different parts.

My opinion........

Jocko

 

[ALW]

Jocko

I'll wait for you to do just that then

Having spent many hundreds of hours building, then trying to understand why the resulting PSU did not sound as good, I'll beg to differ too.

Having actually measured just about every conceivable parameter of the Naim supplies, there are certain parameters you cannot obtain, that are crucial to the end result sonically, without resort to the genuine Naim parts.

It's not difficult though to do better with different parts, which is exactly what I did.

I'd love to know where your high confidence about improving on the existing design, using the off-the-shelf equivalent parts, comes from - I very respectfully suggest it's misplaced.

Anyway, probably shouldn't take this off-topic any more...

Andy.

 

[Christer]

Jocko,

FYI in another thread ALW mentions what special part Naim
uses and claims it not be publically available. However, this
seems completely wrong, since he seems to refer to the
generally available LM317K, which is nothing special at all,
but a TO3 version of LM317T, as I understand it.

ALW, correct me if you actually meant some other device. This
is how I interpreted you claim, assuming that by LM3*7K you
meant LM317K and LM337K.

 

[peranders]

ALW, this is slightly off topic here but I wonder one thing (since we talk about price performance ratio). Are hifi magazines bought by the industry? They talk very good about X-LP for 300 USD which contains NE5532 (so I've been told). NAD PP-1 contains also NE5532 (34?) for about 80 USD. Do we need something better than NE5532 when it sounds so wonderful according to the press?

Just a thought about what pay for is what we want to get. X-LP has a nice case though compared to NAD. When I read my hifi magazines, they can never dismiss a thing, always good, very good or even better. Never real bad.....

 

[ALW]

Indeed

ALW, correct me if you actually meant some other device.

No you interpret correct, but the crucial factor is the Naim regulators are NOT available by any means I'm aware of to the general public.

They are of different manufacture and perform better than any device I've obtained as an alternative.

You see, appearances CAN be deceptive.

Andy.

 

[Christer]

Re: Indeed

No you interpret correct, but the crucial factor is the Naim regulators are NOT available by any means I'm aware of to the general public.

They are of different manufacture and perform better than any device I've obtained as an alternative.

You see, appearances CAN be deceptive.

Andy.

Yes, I know that specs and behaviour can differ between
manufacturers. I did not realize from your post that you
were referring to a specific brand. Which brand would that be,
by the way?

 

[Jocko Homo]

I'll tell you.......when I get a chance to open it up. Assuming that I do not kill the person involved (See "Turning Pro" thread) first.

Andy,

I know I can do better, because I have. The old one is sitting on his floor somewhere, not being used.

Oh......almost forgot....

Per, I think it is more the other way around. You give the magazines money in the form of ads, and they let you have the privlilege of being reviwed. Ask anyone who has been hustled at CES by them.


Jocko

 

[ALW]

I bow to your superior knowledge

Jocko,

I suspect, very strongly since you didn't like the Naim system, that we listen for very different things when assessing Hifi. As a consequence your idea of better, and mine may differ. But the end user was happy, and at the end of the day that is all that matters.

I'd be keen to know what selection process you performed for your LM317's - you did have to do some selection, I assume?

Regards,

Andy.

 

[hifi]

As i see it Naim and Linn have a "clan" or a "sekt" of folowers that only accept units from those brand as the absolute truth and nothing but the truth those people get pretty annoying after a while..

btw once i was in a linn store and the dealer told me that the speaker in my mobilephone (wich was in my pocket) was affecting the sound of the system more than the room was...so i asked him if he thought it was RF related...but no it was the small speaker in the telephone that acted as a helmholtsresonator...the fact that there was several other florstanding speakers in the rom and most of the walls war uncovered/damped concreate and the room was almost cubic... did not matter much....

Well The LM317 is a pretty standard device and one shouldnt expect to find it in really good supplyes...irregardless of selecton/brand/make.... IMHO


/micke

 

[ALW]

I thought that too...

"Well The LM317 is a pretty standard device and one shouldnt expect to find it in really good supplyes...irregardless of selecton/brand/make.... IMHO"

That's what I thought, but they differ, a lot. Hard to take I know, I spent a long time denying the facts. The difference is measurable and significant though.

"there are way too many better regs (especially discrete) to pardon using this crap."

Discrete can always be better - this is the route I took, and I'm not one of the Naim army - I like their products and use some of their products but for the prices charged I feel they should be doing better, in some areas.

Andy.

 

[hifi]

I dont want to make you mad but i start believing that Naim LM317 is better than standard LM317 with a significant margin when i have made the meassurments myself or aditioned them..

;-)

/micke

 

[Brett]

As i see it Naim and Linn have a "clan" or a "sekt" of folowers that only accept units from those brand as the absolute truth and nothing but the truth those people get pretty annoying after a while..

I think the correct expression would be cult.
Ages ago I had a full Linn / Naim system, and whilst I recall loving it at the time, all the propaganda and BS were too much. Still is.

btw once i was in a linn store and the dealer told me that the speaker in my mobilephone (wich was in my pocket) was affecting the sound of the system more than the room was...so i asked him if he thought it was RF related...but no it was the small speaker in the telephone that acted as a helmholtsresonator...the fact that there was several other florstanding speakers in the rom and most of the walls war uncovered/damped concreate and the room was almost cubic... did not matter much....

I was told the same thing during a demonstration, and nearly fell on the floor laughing. I made a point of discussing acoustics, of which I have some modest knowledge, with the dealer, but he couldn't reply anything other than the party line, ie what his holy Ivorness had pronounced to be true. The demonstration was awful. The only people who would have bought anything because of it were those already indoctrinated.

This is a pity as some of the Linn gear is very good.

Well The LM317 is a pretty standard device and one shouldnt expect to find it in really good supplyes...irregardless of selecton/brand/make.... IMHO

I just removed some 317s from some HT supplies and the difference was large. It was much better without them. Sonic poison. the LT108x series seems to be a better choice and a shuntreg even better still.

 

[ALW]

Don;t get mad

I dont want to make you mad but i start believing that Naim LM317 is better than standard LM317 with a significant margin when i have made the meassurments myself or aditioned them..

I would not expect anything else from any self-respecting engineer.

You're in for a surprise though - if you measure the right things.

A.