Hi guys,
first of all sorry for my poor English. I'm a German guy and I hope you can understand, what I'm asking for.
I have a DIY speaker with accuton BD 20-6-031 diamond tweeter, accuton C90-6-079 mid range driver and Revelator 26W/8867T00 woofer.
The tweeter and midrange driver have a passiv crossover. The woofer is actively driven.
I'm quite happy with the tweeter and the midrange but not with the bass. The Revelator seems to be a bit weak.
While searching the internet, the Avalon Eidolon is quite similiar but they have the ETON chassis for the bass. A friend of mine recommends to use this woofer. I think it must be the 11" chassis - the 11-581/50 Hex. Is my guess correct?
What's you opinion about the idea to upgrade to the ETON woofer?
Thanks for your support!
Greetings from Germany
Ray
first of all sorry for my poor English. I'm a German guy and I hope you can understand, what I'm asking for.
I have a DIY speaker with accuton BD 20-6-031 diamond tweeter, accuton C90-6-079 mid range driver and Revelator 26W/8867T00 woofer.
The tweeter and midrange driver have a passiv crossover. The woofer is actively driven.
I'm quite happy with the tweeter and the midrange but not with the bass. The Revelator seems to be a bit weak.
While searching the internet, the Avalon Eidolon is quite similiar but they have the ETON chassis for the bass. A friend of mine recommends to use this woofer. I think it must be the 11" chassis - the 11-581/50 Hex. Is my guess correct?
What's you opinion about the idea to upgrade to the ETON woofer?
Thanks for your support!
Greetings from Germany
Ray
Eton driver have little higher sensivity and might sound little bit different. Old eidolon have 11-581. But newer eidolon versions have some kind of oem special version of 11-212.
Revelator should be very good bass driver. And you have active crossover, then driver sensivity should not been an issue. What cabin measurements you have (size) etc.? What is height from the ground to the middle of bass driver? What crossover frequencies you use?
Revelator should be very good bass driver. And you have active crossover, then driver sensivity should not been an issue. What cabin measurements you have (size) etc.? What is height from the ground to the middle of bass driver? What crossover frequencies you use?
Please try to describe "weak".
I have a lot of experiences with scan speak woofers 18W rev-18WU-22W rev28W rev-32W rev, and also with 26W/4867 and Classic 25W/4867SE. They all sound anything but week.
One of the often mistakes to give them large volume. It looks very tempting in the sim SW, but does not sound good, and "weak" could be the right word for it.
Based on datasheet TS, and in Vituix Enclosure SW, I would use them in ~50liters BR tuned to 25Hz. As you have active crossover for the bass, closed box with mild bottom end EQ is possible as well.
"Weak" might come from (again, based on my hands on, ears on experiences):
I have a lot of experiences with scan speak woofers 18W rev-18WU-22W rev28W rev-32W rev, and also with 26W/4867 and Classic 25W/4867SE. They all sound anything but week.
One of the often mistakes to give them large volume. It looks very tempting in the sim SW, but does not sound good, and "weak" could be the right word for it.
Based on datasheet TS, and in Vituix Enclosure SW, I would use them in ~50liters BR tuned to 25Hz. As you have active crossover for the bass, closed box with mild bottom end EQ is possible as well.
"Weak" might come from (again, based on my hands on, ears on experiences):
- too large volume
- wrong or not optimal port tuning
- no or too little of damping material in the box. I usually need to use more then I would expect to get good bass qulity and especially midrange quality
- wrong measurements and not good crossover. Elevated ~300-600Hz area by ~2dB (which is not easy to measure correctly with in room, gated measurements) can result in the "weak" impression
Thanks for your reply.
The size of the cabin is in cm: 110 (H) x 30 (W) x 41 (D) or rather (in inch): 43.3 (H) x 11.8 (W) x 16 (D)
The height from ground (including feet) to the middle of the bass driver is 59cm which is aprox. 23.2"
Correct, the woofer is driven by a separate digital amplifier w/o crossover, The preamp is a Trinnov Amethyst, who can manage digital 2-way XO.
The crossover frequency is 300Hz.
The xo frquency between the midtone and tweeter is set to about 4KHz. This is been done by a passive XO.
The size of the cabin is in cm: 110 (H) x 30 (W) x 41 (D) or rather (in inch): 43.3 (H) x 11.8 (W) x 16 (D)
The height from ground (including feet) to the middle of the bass driver is 59cm which is aprox. 23.2"
Correct, the woofer is driven by a separate digital amplifier w/o crossover, The preamp is a Trinnov Amethyst, who can manage digital 2-way XO.
The crossover frequency is 300Hz.
The xo frquency between the midtone and tweeter is set to about 4KHz. This is been done by a passive XO.
@PKAudio:
Thank you as well for your interesting hints!
I find the bass sound a bit too soft. So it should sound tighter. That's what I mean by "weak".
I also tested with the box closed, but then the bass drops off noticeably in the low ranges. Do you think I should then compensate for the drop while "tuning" the Amethyst? I tried this more or less but wasn't satisfied.
I will definitely add more damping material.
I'll also try to modify the BR to set it to FR=25Hz.
Thank you as well for your interesting hints!
I find the bass sound a bit too soft. So it should sound tighter. That's what I mean by "weak".
I also tested with the box closed, but then the bass drops off noticeably in the low ranges. Do you think I should then compensate for the drop while "tuning" the Amethyst? I tried this more or less but wasn't satisfied.
I will definitely add more damping material.
I'll also try to modify the BR to set it to FR=25Hz.
Try to estimate net volume of the woofer cabinet to know what would be optimal port tuning first.
Soft, ok thats was what I expected so my points above are valid.
Soft, ok thats was what I expected so my points above are valid.
Actually it is set to about 19Hz. I will re-check it.
And I'll add damping material.
Do you think, to swap the woofer to the Eaton chassis wouldn't improve it?
And I'll add damping material.
Do you think, to swap the woofer to the Eaton chassis wouldn't improve it?
The closest to ever achieving a worthy goal like that is to start measuring T/S parameters yourself.
Qts and Fs may be higher. Manufacturer data could be off, sometimes too significantly.
Qts and Fs may be higher. Manufacturer data could be off, sometimes too significantly.
I don't think that change to eton would help. I have Eton 11-612 in my DIY speaker. And i have same kind of issue, there is low bass, but not much upper bass (punch). That is my own mistake with drivers and crossover frequencies (also smaller encosure might help me). Original eidolon use quite high bass crossover 400 - 500hz to avoid upper bass weakness. You can test it also to raise crossover frequency to 500hz. I have crossover fr 250hz and that's is bad with the ceiling and roof reflections. (with my driver spacing, this can also simulate with vituixcad)
No, 26W Revelator is excellent driver. I would suggest to do anything possible to make it sounding good with this driver. Now you have to go step by step to check volume, tuning, damping material, crossover, measurements,...etc.
Do you have any details of the crossover, schematics, measurements,...?
Do you have possibility to measure impedance?
I have bass driver 45cm from groud and midrange 84cm. Unformately i wasn't simulated that with room response. That makes floor/roof reflection null to about same frequency near 300hz. And i have crossover frequency 250hz, and in the midrange this null is even worse. That can be simulated with vituixcad and also i can see it from measurements.
Here is my room response and that don't have pucnh because of missing power from 150 to 500hz. (measured at midrange level so treble top end is missing)
And here is vituixcad simulation (from my speaker). Green line is room response simulation:
Here is my room response and that don't have pucnh because of missing power from 150 to 500hz. (measured at midrange level so treble top end is missing)
And here is vituixcad simulation (from my speaker). Green line is room response simulation:
Hi guys,
thanks again for your constructive postings!
Here an update on my actions today:
@PKAudio: I have the circuit diagram for the crossover, but remember, that I'm using passive xo for mid/high only. No passive xo for the woofer.
Yes, I can measure impedance with the ARTA box.
@jzl: it would be possible to increase the upper frequency of the woofer to 400 - 500Hz. Since I set the frequency with the Trinnov Amethyst, it's no problem but the midrange crossver is a passive crossover. Not sure, if I would combine the passive crossover with the Amethyst digital crossover. But it's woth to try it. Do you think, that a higher frquency for the woofer can improve the bass?
@Lojzek: never did measurements of T/S params.
thanks again for your constructive postings!
Here an update on my actions today:
- checked the dimensions of the woofer housing: 70.5 x 24 x 33 cm (H x W x D) which gives a volume of about 56Liters.
- 2x heavy 30mm thick damping plates habe been added inside
- did new calculation for the lentgh of the FR tube. Based on the above mentioned dimensions and based on PKAudios recommendation to set FR to 20 - 25Hz, a 28cm tube has been mounted now. Boxsim has calculated a FR of 23.3Hz.
@PKAudio: I have the circuit diagram for the crossover, but remember, that I'm using passive xo for mid/high only. No passive xo for the woofer.
Yes, I can measure impedance with the ARTA box.
@jzl: it would be possible to increase the upper frequency of the woofer to 400 - 500Hz. Since I set the frequency with the Trinnov Amethyst, it's no problem but the midrange crossver is a passive crossover. Not sure, if I would combine the passive crossover with the Amethyst digital crossover. But it's woth to try it. Do you think, that a higher frquency for the woofer can improve the bass?
@Lojzek: never did measurements of T/S params.
If i simulate your bass driver distances at 300hz crossover, it won't make much difference. Little bit better than mine.
But then i simulate to raise your crossover to 450hz and with 4th order. (with your driver spacing). That won't make much difference, still mising middle bass.
In my system that helps (In simulator), because my woofer is closer to floor.
Next system that i will make, will have multiple woofer to avoid middle bass weakness.
But then i simulate to raise your crossover to 450hz and with 4th order. (with your driver spacing). That won't make much difference, still mising middle bass.
In my system that helps (In simulator), because my woofer is closer to floor.
Next system that i will make, will have multiple woofer to avoid middle bass weakness.
Yes, of course is good to try speaker without sandstone plate. That might change room reflections.
But also if you have measurement equipment. Please make measurement from your listening point and post image of response here. (You can try make this with your phone also)
But also if you have measurement equipment. Please make measurement from your listening point and post image of response here. (You can try make this with your phone also)
The room reflections aren't a big issue for me because I have the Trinnov. I bought this guy because of a dramatic room resonance at f=37Hz. The Trinnov is an exciting tool to compensate roomreflections. I really love this unit.
So I'm wondering if amplitude measurements can help to improve the issue with the missing punch of the woofer.
So I'm wondering if amplitude measurements can help to improve the issue with the missing punch of the woofer.