How hard to clone the Orions?

Chaucer

Disabled Account
2005-06-12 5:44 am
Ohio
After much reading about the Orions I'm 100% sold I want a pair. The only downside? They're only 4x as much as I'd like to spend!

I've never heard a dipole speaker until recently and I can't wait to build a pair of my own. I know the Orions are heavily researched by the great Linkwitz, and also have some massive active crossovers with intense EQing...but what I'm wondering is how close can I get to these with a $1500 budget? I was thinking of going with a Dayton RS225 8" woofer for the mids, the new Dayton RS28A tweeter, and I'm not sure about the woofers yet, but seeing how the Peerless will run me $600 for the 4, I was going to venture down some other road. For argument's sake, let's say I went with the Peerless. I might even go with dual 12s opposed to the dual 10s after reading one review of the Orions.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-366

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-130

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-608

That would be $780 for all the drivers. I will definately be going active and love my Behringer DCX2496 so add in another $250 and we're at $1030. That leaves $470 for materials and amplification to keep it under my budget. Wood, MDF and finishing supplies will only run me $100 so figure $370 for amplification. I'll probably use my Panasonic XR-25 digital that's just sitting here and can put the $370 into a nice Crown or QSC amp and probably be under the $1500 mark.

Now, what do you guys think of this idea? I've also thought about doing an MTM top with dual 7" or 8" Dayton RS woofers, and even thought about using a ribbon tweeter like the Aurum Cantus G2Si.

You tell me. For $1500 against $6000 do you think something like this could hold up to the Orion? I will have the nice built-in EQ of the DCX2496 and have some decent measuring equipment. You guys let me know!

Thanks!
 

AJinFLA

Banned
2005-02-09 4:35 am
Tampa
Hi Chaucer,

the only fly in the ointment that I can see in your setup (and correct me if I am wrong) is the Orion requires 6ch's (I own a hybrid pair). The DCX>XR25 6ch input would allow you to use 4 amp ch's for midbass/treble. But there is only 1 sub preout correct? (Again, I'm not intimately familiar w/ this receiver). This would mean mono below 125hz, even if you split the outs into 2 ch's for your Crown/QSC. Unless I misunderstand how you plan on setting this up, that could be a problem. I'll bet that Monty's setup w/ the RS's will give you a very,very nice rig for that kind of $. I would stick w/ the 10's in his plans, then use the extra $ (perhaps later) for a sealed sub, capable of decent output below 40hz, to relieve the mains and enhance your max SPL quite a bit. SL provides the plans for such:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/thor-intro.htm
Good luck.

;)

Cheers,

AJ
 
IMHO, if you go open baffle/dipole, you've probably got most of the goal met, whether or not you try to "clone" the Orion.

I think your ideas are sound - build what you can on your budget - and build the design that excites you. I too want to build open baffle, just not in the Orion price range. I don't know much about the Dayton drivers, but get some opinions from other experienced builders here first to see what they recommend in that price point. Configuring the drivers as they are in the Orion will probably be a good idea, and going MTM with smaller diameter mids will have advantages too.

You also are ahead of the game with an existing electronic crossover, so with some good measuring and tweaking to get everything balanced and equalized, I'll bet you'll be very happy with the results.

Please keep us posted on this project!
 

AJinFLA

Banned
2005-02-09 4:35 am
Tampa
If you are intent on using the drivers you listed for an actual Orion based clone, the only driver I would reconsider would be the RS225. I would substitute this instead: L22RNX/P (H1252)
Sold @ Madisound (the link on their page for the H1252 is to the H1208 for some reason). http://www.madisound.com/seas.html.
Here is the SEAS link: http://www.seas.no/seas_line/woofers/H1252.pdf
The RS225 is an excellent driver, BUT, for the range needed in the Orion, i.e. 125hz-1.5k, the SEAS will be the better choice IMHO. The cost is $65, so not much more than the RS225. Some more info http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/8 inch woofer test group/8 inch woofer test.htm
The RS250 proto is the RS225 (well, mostly:D )
 
I should have thought of using other SEAS drivers too - maybe closer to the sound of the Orions. Going one step "down" from the Excel line would probably result in still excellent sound quality - SEAS doesn't build any "bad" drivers. Maybe the poly/paper drivers are easier to X-over/equalize than the magnesium?

P.S. - doesn't SEAS have two Excel tweeters? One is of course the Millenium, but there is another less costly one in the same line. Doesn anybody have experience with this? (Not hijacking the thread - this could be another alternative for the Orion clone.)
 
Hi, Chaucer (et al); I'm building some quasi-Orion clones similar to Steve Dodds's (username here: sfdoddsy) BOB 5 dipoles. But I'm using the new TC Sounds TC2+ incredible woofers in big birch plywood H frames with Seas Excel/Millenium MTM Corian baffles which will sit atop them*. (*or be suspended above them if vibrations are a problem).
Anyway, my point here is that, although these 10 drivers alone cost me upwards of $1650, you might want to consider using this combo instead as I have a good hunch they'd be mighty hard to improve upon. Quality only hurt$ once!
I've already built the woofers which I'm using with an old Sumo active subwoofer crossover and some Nakamichi 200 watt amps in my current Dynaudio 2 way + TC subs setup; they are nothing short of fantastic! I'm almost finished building the Sandstone-colored Corian baffles and should have the whole system up and running reasonably soon. I will post my results with photos when I do (I've been slowly working on this for nearly two years---at last I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel!). Btw, Steve uses the same XF25 receiver and dcx2496 with his dipoles and he says it works great, too---so you needn't go out and buy more amps or crossovers, only the drivers and a lot of mdf if you decided to give the Seas/TC2s a try. I suggest you search and check out Steve's postings/web site as well as the many rave reviews of the TC2+ woofers; you'll be inspired as I was for sure. You should be able to locate them easily by searching "Bob 5" (and "arvo part dipoles" for links to the woofer reviews)... Let me know if you need further info as I can dig up some urls that are not handy to me at the moment. Good luck with your project and deciding which dipole path to choose---it will be a fun journey! Jeff :cool:
 

Chaucer

Disabled Account
2005-06-12 5:44 am
Ohio
Wow, thanks for all the info so far, guys!

NH7RO, if you don't mind taking a few minutes and finding those links that would be great!

Also, I have a pair of decent line arrays that are in a ported box and was thinking of maybe making a pair of open baffle line arrays, incorporating an infinite baffle subwoofer for low-end duties. Any thoughts to something like this?
 
Chaucer said:
After much reading about the Orions I'm 100% sold I want a pair. The only downside? They're only 4x as much as I'd like to spend!

I've never heard a dipole speaker until recently and I can't wait to build a pair of my own. I know the Orions are heavily researched by the great Linkwitz, and also have some massive active crossovers with intense EQing...but what I'm wondering is how close can I get to these with a $1500 budget? I was thinking of going with a Dayton RS225 8" woofer for the mids, the new Dayton RS28A tweeter, and I'm not sure about the woofers yet, but seeing how the Peerless will run me $600 for the 4, I was going to venture down some other road. For argument's sake, let's say I went with the Peerless. I might even go with dual 12s opposed to the dual 10s after reading one review of the Orions.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-366

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-130

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-608

That would be $780 for all the drivers. I will definately be going active and love my Behringer DCX2496 so add in another $250 and we're at $1030. That leaves $470 for materials and amplification to keep it under my budget. Wood, MDF and finishing supplies will only run me $100 so figure $370 for amplification. I'll probably use my Panasonic XR-25 digital that's just sitting here and can put the $370 into a nice Crown or QSC amp and probably be under the $1500 mark.

Now, what do you guys think of this idea? I've also thought about doing an MTM top with dual 7" or 8" Dayton RS woofers, and even thought about using a ribbon tweeter like the Aurum Cantus G2Si.

You tell me. For $1500 against $6000 do you think something like this could hold up to the Orion? I will have the nice built-in EQ of the DCX2496 and have some decent measuring equipment. You guys let me know!

Thanks!


sort of wondering... have you heard the orion's? or any dipole with speakers for that matter?

also have you considered an ESL.... in your price range it might be the ticket... dual ESL design.... maaaaaybe
 
Tweeter

Be careful with the tweeter you choose. The orion uses the Excel Millenium and it is crossed very low i think. The millenium have 0,5 mm X max and many tweeters have only 0,25 mm. That means that the millenium is able to handle much lower frequency signal than most tweeters.

You can always cross higher. Or use a good tweeter with high X max.
F
 
Chaucer; here's those links I promised the other day---not to be missed:

www.doddsy.net/steve6_008.htm

(suggest reading Steve's entire site; truly inspiring---what got me going on dipoles again (I used to have Magnepans years ago, loved their sound...)

What my Corian MTM baffles are designed after (see TP14 dimensions in the chart at the second url below):

http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/digital_seas_puffin.htm

http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/PrototypeTestResults.htm

Good food for thought. Don't have the url handy with all the info on TC+2 woofers but I got mine from Todd at O Audio in Texas (perhaps some of the first ones as I bought them last year); can recommend them highly from experience.

Getting late here so sayonara for now.:eek: Enjoy!
 
Firstly I question the idea of using dipoles into the midrange. Why do this? Bass is another thing, however ...

Have you considered the Adire Extremis as a midbass?

It would be easier than a lot of the alternatives to cross to a tweeter, but its displacement means it can show up a 10" with its bass! Using just one would keep the cost down. You could also keep the cost down by using a passive xo between the tweeter and midbass.

You could make it all quite simple by using the Exodus audio 2 way kit with the Extremis, then adding on some active woofers. The bonus here is that you could either use the DCX for a centre speaker as well, or use it to control stereo subs as well.
 
Chaucer said:
After much reading about the Orions I'm 100% sold I want a pair. The only downside? They're only 4x as much as I'd like to spend!

I've never heard a dipole speaker until recently and I can't wait to build a pair of my own. I know the Orions are heavily researched by the great Linkwitz, and also have some massive active crossovers with intense EQing...but what I'm wondering is how close can I get to these with a $1500 budget?

I spent $2200 building my Orions. The price tag is only $6500 when you want a complete assembled system that you plug into the wall and your preamp- you get the assembled speakers, a 12 channel ATI amp, and even the cables.

Less expensive open baffle designs include John Kreskovsky's NaO with a passive mid-range to tweeter cross-over, the passive Arvo Part dipole, and maybe Monte Kay's RS dipole. I haven't heard any of the others.


Now, what do you guys think of this idea? I've also thought about doing an MTM top with dual 7" or 8" Dayton RS woofers, and even thought about using a ribbon tweeter like the Aurum Cantus G2Si.

Maintaining realistic output levels requires a lot of displacement from the midrange drivers due to dipole roll off so you need to use large drivers. The large drivers beam at high frequencies so you need a low tweeter cross-over. That precludes using an affordable ribbon tweeter.
 
paulspencer said:
Firstly I question the idea of using dipoles into the midrange. Why do this?

IMHO they sound more natural than a boxed mid-range. While some visiting audiophiles have wanted more bass from the orions or wanted a different top-end, they've all liked the Orion midrange and several have considered it the best midrange they've heard from any speaker. Reasons probably include polar response remaining more uniform as the frequency drops and attenuated side-wall, floor, and ceiling reflections
 
Re: Re: How hard to clone the Orions?

Audiophilenoob said:



sort of wondering... have you heard the orion's? or any dipole with speakers for that matter?

also have you considered an ESL.... in your price range it might be the ticket... dual ESL design.... maaaaaybe

Compared to the Orion, on-axis Martin Logan (Aerius ii) mid-range is more similar than different, Airy, open, liquid, transparent, etc. The downsides to ML's hybrids are that the bass is not as natural and they're less tolerant of off-axis listening.
 
Drew, well you can't argue against a person's preference. I can't say I've yet heard the Orions, but I have heard speakers using those drivers, and similar other seas excel drivers. Do you find them a bit unforgiving with typical non-audiophile approved recordings? I heard some VAF signature speakers and they were very impressive on good recordings, unlistenable on bad recordings!

I'm not yet sold on the idea of dipole midrange, it seems to me that from an accuracy point of view one aims to eliminate the rear wave of the driver. Conventionally this is done within the box. With a dipole you are allowing it to enter the room, and attempting to delay and attenuate the rear wave so it's perceived as ambience. In some way you must deal with it, either within the room or within the box. It seems to me a more accurate method is to deal with it within the box, as this should result in less coloration, however this is not normally done very well IMO.
 

I'm not yet sold on the idea of dipole midrange, it seems to me that from an accuracy point of view one aims to eliminate the rear wave of the driver. Conventionally this is done within the box. With a dipole you are allowing it to enter the room, and attempting to delay and attenuate the rear wave so it's perceived as ambience. In some way you must deal with it, either within the room or within the box. It seems to me a more accurate method is to deal with it within the box, as this should result in less coloration, however this is not normally done very well IMO. [/B]


Have you actually heard dipoles to make these comparisons? IMHO "accuracy" would also include the speakers doing more or less what live performances do - radiate sound in all directions. The benefits of dipoles are largely dependent on room size & characterisitcs, speaker placement, etc. - Linkwitz goes into this in depth on his site, and his arguments for dipoles seem quite sound to me.

As always, individual preferences will always prevail.
 
paulspencer said:
I'm not yet sold on the idea of dipole midrange, it seems to me that from an accuracy point of view one aims to eliminate the rear wave of the driver.

From LDC 6th Edition: "Last and often overlooked option for mid-range enclosures is no enclosure at all... The benefits include complete freedom from internal box reflections (critical to midrange drivers) and bi-polar radiation in the mid-frequency range."

I haven't tried an OB midrange yet, but I'm waiting on delivery of a couple of pairs of WR125ST's that will allow me to try it and see for myself what all the fuss is about.