Hi all - first post, have been lurking a while but decided to join up.
Most of what is said here goes way over my head at this point but I was hoping to dip my toe in the water so to speak. As my woodworking skills are my weak point I was thinking of buying a set of LSK F6's (theloudspeakerkit.com).
Firstly, does anyone have experience with how these sound? I currently own a pair of Paradigm Phantoms (the entry level floorstanders from a couple of years back) and a PS-1000 sub. Obviously they will sound different, but are the F6's in the same ballpark, heaps better, or way worse than the Paradigms? I am hoping for a step up here.
I find that in my room the Paradigms do well with older stuff (The Eagles, Dire Straits, Pink Floyd etc) but I also listen to hard rock, progressive and metal music which tends to show a disappointing lack of punch or be quite muddy (or both). There may (oops - WILL) be factors other than the speakers at play here.
This upgrade is supposed to fill in my 5.1 system as well, and as my budget is $1500 and I can get the F6's and a C6 centre shipped for under $1400 I figured that it's money well spent.
Am I wrong? Are there better options that require very little woodworking skills? Are the F6's no better than what I have? Am I better off treating the room? I realise that I have not given enough info to go on here so I'm happy to fill in the blanks.
If nobody has heard both the paradigms and the LSK kits then is there another speaker that the F6's compare similarly to?
Wow - that turned out to be quite a post. Thanks for reading if you made it this far 🙂
Most of what is said here goes way over my head at this point but I was hoping to dip my toe in the water so to speak. As my woodworking skills are my weak point I was thinking of buying a set of LSK F6's (theloudspeakerkit.com).
Firstly, does anyone have experience with how these sound? I currently own a pair of Paradigm Phantoms (the entry level floorstanders from a couple of years back) and a PS-1000 sub. Obviously they will sound different, but are the F6's in the same ballpark, heaps better, or way worse than the Paradigms? I am hoping for a step up here.
I find that in my room the Paradigms do well with older stuff (The Eagles, Dire Straits, Pink Floyd etc) but I also listen to hard rock, progressive and metal music which tends to show a disappointing lack of punch or be quite muddy (or both). There may (oops - WILL) be factors other than the speakers at play here.
This upgrade is supposed to fill in my 5.1 system as well, and as my budget is $1500 and I can get the F6's and a C6 centre shipped for under $1400 I figured that it's money well spent.
Am I wrong? Are there better options that require very little woodworking skills? Are the F6's no better than what I have? Am I better off treating the room? I realise that I have not given enough info to go on here so I'm happy to fill in the blanks.
If nobody has heard both the paradigms and the LSK kits then is there another speaker that the F6's compare similarly to?
Wow - that turned out to be quite a post. Thanks for reading if you made it this far 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/143326-kit-australia.html
To give you some idea of what is involved in building from scratch.
I haven't heard the latest build of that particular kit but its predecessor was OK with plenty of dynamics and SPL but 165mm is getting a little big for MTM ( in my opinion ) but the drivers are reasonable and it does have good value; depending of course on cost of shipping
To give you some idea of what is involved in building from scratch.
I haven't heard the latest build of that particular kit but its predecessor was OK with plenty of dynamics and SPL but 165mm is getting a little big for MTM ( in my opinion ) but the drivers are reasonable and it does have good value; depending of course on cost of shipping
My first chance to learn something! Why do you say that about 165mm drivers?
$1380 is the total price shipped for the F6's and the C6 centre speaker. Does that sound like good value? I am hoping that this represents better value than buying a prebuilt speaker - otherwise I don't think I have the time yet to completely do it from scratch, but I am hoping to try in the next 12 months.
Or should I just look at a set of commercial speakers and a centre for $1500 if I am not able to go from scratch? I was kinda thinking of trying something with plumbing down the track as I can get heaps of stuff through work, and I'm not scared of electronics - woodwork and time are my enemies right now 🙂
craze,
If you are in Melbourne (close to Port Melbourne), I can let you listen to some active 3 ways that I built. May be slightly over budget though.
Frank
If you are in Melbourne (close to Port Melbourne), I can let you listen to some active 3 ways that I built. May be slightly over budget though.
Frank
Personal opinion based on the need to keep the C2C distance as small as possible to minimise interference between mid and tweeter.
crazee64
You may want to tell us your location as someone may be able to let you listen to some DIY speakers for a reference point.
I'm not familiar with your speakers nor have I heard the F6 but have used the PAE mid woofers (based on Vifa BC series). They're worth about $30 each and not bad for the money but you can do better for some extra dollars.
If you want to go down the DIY route, then I'd suggest you go to the TL6 as the drivers (P17/D25AG I think) and the design are far superior to the F6. If you listen on axis when viewing HT, then you don't need a centre..... besides the C6 using a sideways MTM is not a good option.... a vertical or even a sideways TM is better.
If woodworking is a problem then look at other commercial offerings. Part of the saving in DIY speakers is doing your own enclosures plus using better quality drivers with the coin saved.
For the dollars you mentioned you could build some great other DIY designs available but would require someone helping you to build the enclosure.
You may want to tell us your location as someone may be able to let you listen to some DIY speakers for a reference point.
I'm not familiar with your speakers nor have I heard the F6 but have used the PAE mid woofers (based on Vifa BC series). They're worth about $30 each and not bad for the money but you can do better for some extra dollars.
If you want to go down the DIY route, then I'd suggest you go to the TL6 as the drivers (P17/D25AG I think) and the design are far superior to the F6. If you listen on axis when viewing HT, then you don't need a centre..... besides the C6 using a sideways MTM is not a good option.... a vertical or even a sideways TM is better.
If woodworking is a problem then look at other commercial offerings. Part of the saving in DIY speakers is doing your own enclosures plus using better quality drivers with the coin saved.
For the dollars you mentioned you could build some great other DIY designs available but would require someone helping you to build the enclosure.
Thanks for the advice so far guys. Looks like the whole point to DIY is the from scratch part - or else just better to get a fully built speaker?
I am in Melbourne, but much further to the south-east (Frankston area).
You are all starting to sway me towards taking on the cabinet myself. I am pretty handy, with a little bit of electronics background and access to some tools - though never used a router before. So I think realistically I could do it if I had to.
My room is 4100 wide x 5850 long with a large bay window on the right hand wall, as I face the speakers - that is over and above the measurements. Behind me is a double bi-fold door (1640 x 2040 opening) that opens into a 2000 x 2500 foyer and hallway. Floor is polished boards (rug to come soon I hope). Can anyone point me at a few designs that will play well in a room like this with rock/metal/prog/acoustic music?
I need pretty high SPL as I sometimes go loud and it doubles as a HT. Some day I will DIY a better sub but for now the PS1000 stays and the Phantoms will be my rears. (BTW these are them: Home Theater & Sound Equipment Review -- Paradigm System Three.2 Home-Theater Speaker System (8/2002))
I still feel like I want to build a matching centre as there are 6 seats and not many of them are on axis. I was aware that the sideways MTM was not ideal so perhaps I can improve here?
Thoughts? Budget is still $1500 at an absolute stretch... would have to be really worth it to go over the $1380 I was already planning to spend (even that is more than Santa brought me 🙂).
I am in Melbourne, but much further to the south-east (Frankston area).
You are all starting to sway me towards taking on the cabinet myself. I am pretty handy, with a little bit of electronics background and access to some tools - though never used a router before. So I think realistically I could do it if I had to.
My room is 4100 wide x 5850 long with a large bay window on the right hand wall, as I face the speakers - that is over and above the measurements. Behind me is a double bi-fold door (1640 x 2040 opening) that opens into a 2000 x 2500 foyer and hallway. Floor is polished boards (rug to come soon I hope). Can anyone point me at a few designs that will play well in a room like this with rock/metal/prog/acoustic music?
I need pretty high SPL as I sometimes go loud and it doubles as a HT. Some day I will DIY a better sub but for now the PS1000 stays and the Phantoms will be my rears. (BTW these are them: Home Theater & Sound Equipment Review -- Paradigm System Three.2 Home-Theater Speaker System (8/2002))
I still feel like I want to build a matching centre as there are 6 seats and not many of them are on axis. I was aware that the sideways MTM was not ideal so perhaps I can improve here?
Thoughts? Budget is still $1500 at an absolute stretch... would have to be really worth it to go over the $1380 I was already planning to spend (even that is more than Santa brought me 🙂).
Oh and if it helps I have extensive access to and experience with fibreglass and plumbing supplies through work.
If you can do a DIY speaker then it's a bigger bang for buck vs a commercial offering providing you choose a good design. I'm sure you could find someone to help you.
Have a look at Troel's site for some great designs.
Troelsgravesen Diy Loudspeaker Projects
This one is a good bang for buck design that will not break the bank. I've used these drivers and are worth the coin.
Troelsgravesen Peerless HDS830875
You could base a centre speaker on the same design by doing a TM only and set the HT centre to small.... or go the full TMM design as a centre.
I've done a few PVC pipe based speakers but only for very small fullrange drivers.... 3" - 4" (search for Triffid or Hydrant). For larger speakers you need to go the way of MDF or plywood.
Have a look at Troel's site for some great designs.
Troelsgravesen Diy Loudspeaker Projects
This one is a good bang for buck design that will not break the bank. I've used these drivers and are worth the coin.
Troelsgravesen Peerless HDS830875
You could base a centre speaker on the same design by doing a TM only and set the HT centre to small.... or go the full TMM design as a centre.
I've done a few PVC pipe based speakers but only for very small fullrange drivers.... 3" - 4" (search for Triffid or Hydrant). For larger speakers you need to go the way of MDF or plywood.
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Thanks Rabbitz - looks like a nice project, very similar in design to what I already have, but I assume much higher quality 🙂
I'm just pricing up the parts now, any suggestions on where to shop? I've looked at speakerbits, but they don't seem to list that tweeter.
With regards to tweaking this design, it is not a huge box and i am not limited for room - would I get better extension by making the box bigger? My current sub does not seem to do much below 35Hz so perhaps I can make it redundant and sell it off?
I'm just pricing up the parts now, any suggestions on where to shop? I've looked at speakerbits, but they don't seem to list that tweeter.
With regards to tweaking this design, it is not a huge box and i am not limited for room - would I get better extension by making the box bigger? My current sub does not seem to do much below 35Hz so perhaps I can make it redundant and sell it off?
Isn't it already big enough ?
By reading the article that Troels has written , he chose the best tuning arrangement for those drivers ,though he didn't expect that real sub-bass information could come out by such design . Indeed he suggests to fine-tune the possible subwoofer by occluding the port or put some felt in..
By reading the article that Troels has written , he chose the best tuning arrangement for those drivers ,though he didn't expect that real sub-bass information could come out by such design . Indeed he suggests to fine-tune the possible subwoofer by occluding the port or put some felt in..
Yes I read that he did not expect anything between 20-40Hz but I am new to all of this and I wondered if that is due to the box design or the driver arrangement? If it is a limitation of the drivers then fine, I guess my DIY sub will fill that in when I save up enough to replace my current one.
If not I was wondering if there was any tweaking that could be done to the original design. I am however way out of my depth so I need someone else's expertise here.
If not I was wondering if there was any tweaking that could be done to the original design. I am however way out of my depth so I need someone else's expertise here.
The drivers would be much higher quality than your existing speakers. I currently use that tweeter in my mains and the mid woofer in another speaker. In fact these drivers are used in the highly regarded Elsinore.
Customanalogue Elsinore
The tweeter is known as the Peerless 810921 or Scan Speak D2608/913000.
You can get drivers from WES, Hasaudio, Madisound.
Wescomponents Aus
Hasaudio NZ
Madisound USA
With the AU$ as it is buying from NZ or USA is a good option.
Stick to the design size or the larger volume option as it's designed to make the most of the drivers. Increasing box volume too much is not an option as designs are done using the driver's parameters.
You can always build a sub later to do the subsonic frequencies that's required by the LFE channel. This way you get better results than trying to get the FR to try and do it. In my HT, all speakers are set to small and the LFE is handled only by the sub. For music I use a different system with speakers that do to 30Hz.
LSK kits seem a bit pricey. There are better designs that will cost you less, or a much better design for the same price.
If you need a hand with cabinets I can CNC machine most designs and send them in flat pack form so you don't have to worry about cutting\routering.
If you need a hand with cabinets I can CNC machine most designs and send them in flat pack form so you don't have to worry about cutting\routering.
rabbitz - thanks again, you have been very helpful with information, I will look into OS pricing with our very good dollar. I had always thought I would build a sub later so I guess I got a bit hung up on LF extension back there.
Although you have piqued my interest... what speakers are you using for music that go to 30Hz? My guess is something outside of my budget and self designed?
thornspawn - Thanks for the offer. I see you are located in geelong, I sometimes get over there for work (was there last week). But my brother is actually looking at getting a router too (he is into guitars) so I may be able to twist his arm into helping 🙂
I think I need to price up a design or two first and think seriously about my ability to complete something like this in a reasonable time frame but I am getting rather excited at the possibilities.
Although you have piqued my interest... what speakers are you using for music that go to 30Hz? My guess is something outside of my budget and self designed?
thornspawn - Thanks for the offer. I see you are located in geelong, I sometimes get over there for work (was there last week). But my brother is actually looking at getting a router too (he is into guitars) so I may be able to twist his arm into helping 🙂
I think I need to price up a design or two first and think seriously about my ability to complete something like this in a reasonable time frame but I am getting rather excited at the possibilities.
Been putting together some prices for parts and I figure the components for Troels 'Nomex 164' should come in around $630 (give or take).
Given that the 'Elsinore' uses more of the same drivers I played around with the costings for the crossovers and they are not dissimilar. Perhaps a touch over $920 by my reckoning.
Obviously the boxes are additional costs. If I am going to do this, the Elsinore seems like it's not that much more complicated to put together, especially if I get the timber cut for me. Anyone have any thoughts on the differences between the two designs?
Just throwing it out there for now.
Given that the 'Elsinore' uses more of the same drivers I played around with the costings for the crossovers and they are not dissimilar. Perhaps a touch over $920 by my reckoning.
Obviously the boxes are additional costs. If I am going to do this, the Elsinore seems like it's not that much more complicated to put together, especially if I get the timber cut for me. Anyone have any thoughts on the differences between the two designs?
Just throwing it out there for now.
It's my own design using Peerless 810921 + Scan Speak 18W8531G00 + Vifa M22WR-09-08 in an electrical 2.5 way arrangement.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/168554-based-hugh-deans-aksa-55-a-15.html#post2255963
Joe's Elsinore should be a better speaker for not much more dollars with a much lower bass extension, higher SPL and power handling. How they actually sound compared to each other is anyone's guess but tonally they should be similar as they use the same drivers. There is a thread on the Elsinore here.
At a guess, I'd say the Elsinore may be more critical (revealing) on partnering amp and source where Troel's may be a bit more forgiving. Joe does mention that it can replace a sub for most users which may help you decide on which design.
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