I am presently enjoying my 3 way active crossover 2 channel stereo system immensly right now. It wasnt what i had planned on building when i first came to this forum in the early spring but it was i ended up with. Stereo Bass 2 x Hi-Vi D10.8 Morel MW166 for the mid-bass mid-range and the Hi-Vi RT811 Pro ribbon tweeter. My Mids are a little thin and weak from the Morel being only about 84 DB efficient and trying to keep up with a 94 DB ribbon and 91 DB bass cabinets. And it shows with the position i have to keep the gain Pots on the Rane SAC-23 crossover. Bass at 6 the mid at 9 and the tweeter at 6 for close to balanced sound. I am going to rebuild the top end and add another Morel MW166 per side to bring up the efficiency so my set will look like this going from the bottom up -WWMMT- .
So all this thought on how to fix it got me thinking. Mostly because my initial thoughts were to scrap it all and start again, but when i think about it the bass is mint and effortless in those nice solid sealed cabinets. And sure the high end falls off sharply at 16k but guitars and strings sound amazing compared to what i am used to , at the outside i could always add a super tweeter later. It would not be really smart to scrap it all and start again when the fix is pretty straight forward.
BUT.
Being what we are, human, and always looking for improved ways of doing things and hindsight being 20/20 as they say. If you were to do it all again, WHAT would you build this time?
😕 😕 😀
Michael
So all this thought on how to fix it got me thinking. Mostly because my initial thoughts were to scrap it all and start again, but when i think about it the bass is mint and effortless in those nice solid sealed cabinets. And sure the high end falls off sharply at 16k but guitars and strings sound amazing compared to what i am used to , at the outside i could always add a super tweeter later. It would not be really smart to scrap it all and start again when the fix is pretty straight forward.
BUT.
Being what we are, human, and always looking for improved ways of doing things and hindsight being 20/20 as they say. If you were to do it all again, WHAT would you build this time?
😕 😕 😀
Michael
I just re-read my post and realized that it sounds like i am asking what you would build if you were me or had the gear i have. Thats not my intention. I want to know what 'you' with 'your' stuff or gear that you have accumulated would build differently from what you have built now. I hope that makes more sense. 😎
LOL y'all cannot mean to imply that all of you have perfect speakers? Everyone built perfect speakers and no one has any desire to improve upon them at all?
WOW this forum is incredible. I want all of you now to turn your attention to getting man into space permanently
We could be good to go in 2 years with all the geniuses here besides me.😀 i get to deal with weightless cookie dough. And the tough engineering puzzle of how to flip pancakes in zero g.
WOW this forum is incredible. I want all of you now to turn your attention to getting man into space permanently
We could be good to go in 2 years with all the geniuses here besides me.😀 i get to deal with weightless cookie dough. And the tough engineering puzzle of how to flip pancakes in zero g.
Madmike2 said:LOL y'all cannot mean to imply that all of you have perfect speakers? Everyone built perfect speakers and no one has any desire to improve upon them at all?
WOW this forum is incredible. I want all of you now to turn your attention to getting man into space permanently
We could be good to go in 2 years with all the geniuses here besides me.😀 i get to deal with weightless cookie dough. And the tough engineering puzzle of how to flip pancakes in zero g.
I really think you should find a better midbass.... and midrange...
preferably things not so inefficent 😉
some damn good sounding low distortion high efficency drivers out there
Madmike2 said:
Can't help you with the speakers since my project is still on going..
I am howver a master pancake chef and I propose a simple device composed of two oposed, hinged frying pans to solve solve the problem. Fill with batter, close, heat on one side, flip over heat the other side, open and enjoy...
Ok guys now that I've solved he pancake problem lets work on the man permanently in space 😉
--Chris
Well, to answer the question it souned like you were asking in the first place, I would at least experiment with different types of high-power, low-value resistors in series with the more efficient drivers to bring them down to the same output levels as the bass driver... Possibly that would be cheaper than doubling up on the drivers you want to make louder, and would also have the effect of not creating dispersion problems worse than any 3-way already will have.
some things that I have just learnt from the cabinets I just made 🙂
1. Measure the thickness of the MDF (I used 25mm and it was actually 25.5mm).
2. Buy proper T-Nuts (I used normal nuts squashed into the hole.
3. drill the bigger inside holes (for T-Nuts) before flaring the driver cutout!!!! will require some sort of depth guage.
4. I should have used quarter round with 45 deg cuts on the ends for my internal corner bracing, istead of one piece of 25mm square MDF and two bits of quarter round.
5. Do testing in a methodical manner and document absolutely everything!!!! I'm still not able to trust my acuoustic measurements.... I think I need to buy Joe D'appolito's testing Loudspeakers book.
6. Buy the veneer before starting construction. I now have cabinets with no veneer, and a 7 hour drive to where I have facilities to finish them 😉 I also can't put my chamfer on the baffle till I do the veneering......
7. maybe choose drivers that a lot of others have had experience with when it is your first attempt at a crossover.... Don't necessarily believe the freq response graphs on manufacturers or vendors sites, you may get a surprise!!
Tony.
1. Measure the thickness of the MDF (I used 25mm and it was actually 25.5mm).
2. Buy proper T-Nuts (I used normal nuts squashed into the hole.
3. drill the bigger inside holes (for T-Nuts) before flaring the driver cutout!!!! will require some sort of depth guage.
4. I should have used quarter round with 45 deg cuts on the ends for my internal corner bracing, istead of one piece of 25mm square MDF and two bits of quarter round.
5. Do testing in a methodical manner and document absolutely everything!!!! I'm still not able to trust my acuoustic measurements.... I think I need to buy Joe D'appolito's testing Loudspeakers book.
6. Buy the veneer before starting construction. I now have cabinets with no veneer, and a 7 hour drive to where I have facilities to finish them 😉 I also can't put my chamfer on the baffle till I do the veneering......
7. maybe choose drivers that a lot of others have had experience with when it is your first attempt at a crossover.... Don't necessarily believe the freq response graphs on manufacturers or vendors sites, you may get a surprise!!
Tony.
Audiophilenoob said:
Better ? Or more efficient ? Because the Morel is just fine sound wise and plays really low for a sealed box smallish driver. Which is where i am staying. I hate hate hate ported cabinets. IMO sealed sounds better although i have yet to hear Dipole boxless speakers. Doubling up the drivers should solve my problem UNLESS you know a speaker thats better/ > efficient that will run sealed happily ?
So does anyone have a suggestion for a mid-bass mid-range that likes to be in a sealed enclosure and has an efficiency rating in excess of 89 db ??
me thinks that if anyone answers that question the cost will be more than buying two new MW166's 😉 Also whether they will be optimal in the enclosure for the MW166 is an issue..
are your WWMT all in one cabinet at the moment?? if not you could go WW MTM... what are your current crossover freq's? are you straining the amp on the mids, or simply getting too much distortion from having to drive them hard?
are all amps equal in power? If you have a more powerfull bass amp, try swapping it with the mids amp 🙂 more than one way to skin a cat 🙂
or have you simply got the bug and are looking for an excuse to modify 😉
Tony.
are your WWMT all in one cabinet at the moment?? if not you could go WW MTM... what are your current crossover freq's? are you straining the amp on the mids, or simply getting too much distortion from having to drive them hard?
are all amps equal in power? If you have a more powerfull bass amp, try swapping it with the mids amp 🙂 more than one way to skin a cat 🙂
or have you simply got the bug and are looking for an excuse to modify 😉
Tony.
Madmike2 said:
something like the PHL 1220
http://www.phlaudio.com/products/6-5inchbass.html#
they supposedly sound great 🙂
Audiophilenoob said:
unfortunately it doesn't meet Mikes requirement of being good in a sealed enclosure.... with a QTS of .25 it is below Dickasons recomendation of QTS higher than .3 for sealed enclosures....
Tony.
wintermute said:
DOH! 🙁
this 8" would get the job done nicely.... PHL 2420
http://www.phlaudio.com/products/8inchbass.html#
Audiophilenoob said:
Me thinks you aren't reading the spec sheets noob... that one has a qts of .23 they are designed for reflex enclosures.... Also 8" may start to give him problems with matching to his tweeter.
Tony.
wintermute said:
I thought this was a 3-way design? and I fixed it... meant the 2420 ... it's late cut me some slack 😛
Tony, Mike,
If it's being used as a midrange and not as a mid-bass, the 1220 should be able to be used pretty happily in a 9l box. It should be pretty good sounding down to 150Hz. And if you listen at lower levels, it should be fine to much lower.
Depends on where your bass driver kick in, I guess.
Dickerson's (IMHO, of course) recommendations are for when you're using a speaker as a mid-bass. That said, I'm using 2x12" drivers, with a Qts of .3, in sealed boxes as bass modules for my speaker set-up. (I'm not sure how much notice you should take of a guy with a moniker of "Cloth Ears", though!)
If it's being used as a midrange and not as a mid-bass, the 1220 should be able to be used pretty happily in a 9l box. It should be pretty good sounding down to 150Hz. And if you listen at lower levels, it should be fine to much lower.
Depends on where your bass driver kick in, I guess.
Dickerson's (IMHO, of course) recommendations are for when you're using a speaker as a mid-bass. That said, I'm using 2x12" drivers, with a Qts of .3, in sealed boxes as bass modules for my speaker set-up. (I'm not sure how much notice you should take of a guy with a moniker of "Cloth Ears", though!)
Audiophilenoob said:
That's better 🙂 yeah it's a 3 way but this is the mid not the bass driver, so it has to cross to the tweeter 🙂
Tony.
Cloth Ears said:
ahhh so if you aren't running it all the way down, then the QTS isn't so much of a problem?? I guess now that I think about it, the problem with low QTS drivers in a sealed box is that at low freq's they will tend to fly apart due to inadequate damping... correct??
I suppose it depends on what sort of cloth it is 😉
Tony.
edit: Mike: if you haven't already, have a look at http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-7-mids.php3#MIDBASS-6.5+
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