Hemp FR8 vs Hemp FR8C - Which One?

[Estes]

I was about to purchase another set of Hemp FR8s and I see that there seems to be two Hemps out there. There is the FR8C at E-Speakers

http://www.e-speakers.com/

and I recently found the Brown Soun site that sells the FR8 Hemps.

http://www.hemptonespeakers.com/

I purchased a number of items from E-Speakers and have been very happy with their service and products. I've read a little about some controversy about certain Hemp suppliers in the past, however, I do not care about the gossip and accusations. I would just like to know where people have been buying their FR8s and what are the differences.

One other note, Brown Soun offers an 8" Hemp Sub Woofer Driver. Has anyone use it? Building a smallish sub (for a single driver system) how would it compare to the new CSS 7" driver in a simular application? I probably should ask Dave at Planet 10 because I believe he is working on designs for the CSS driver.
John

 

[BudP]

Estes,

The two drivers come from different manufacturers. The Fr8c is sold from Hemp Acoustics in Canada. The FR8 from Brown Soun is sold from here in America.

I have EnABL'd a pair of Hemp Acoustics FR8c speakers and they are extremely refined in character and more detailed than an EnABL'd Lowther equivalent. They are just a tad harsher due to the FR8c using ferrite magnet material and the Lowther using Alnico. On a dollar for sound basis they are very good without EnABL and just amazing after treatment. Audio Magus, on the web, can provide some comments as they use EnABL'd FR8c's in their speakers.

I have no experience with the FR8 and so cannot offer a comparison. It looks to have substantially the same cone construction, but that likely does not indicate anything. The materials of the main cone will differ, with the FR8c having a Hemp matrix, with other fibers like carbon fiber in the slurry. I suspect the FR8 has more hemp fibers in it's slurry, but maybe it just has some green ritt dye added. Don't know, at all.

Bud

 

[planet10]

Let me confuse you further. I do not think that the FR8 you have (a Hemp Acoustics -- sold by E-speakers and others) is the same as the Brown Soun currently sold even thou both made by Brown Soun. No one knows the details, but HA & Brown Soun had a falling out, and Hemp Acoustics lost the rights to use the particular hemp paper recipe that Brown Soun uses so they came up with their own (probably not a hardship, hemp can be used to make paper in a myriad of ways)

dave

 

[Telstar]

EnABL and C37

I have EnABL'd a pair of Hemp Acoustics FR8c speakers and they are extremely refined in character and more detailed than an EnABL'd Lowther equivalent. They are just a tad harsher due to the FR8c using ferrite magnet material and the Lowther using Alnico. On a dollar for sound basis they are very good without EnABL and just amazing after treatment. Audio Magus, on the web, can provide some comments as they use EnABL'd FR8c's in their speakers.

Bud

Hi Bud,

I'm going to use a pair of FR8C, and I'm thinking of using some cone treatments.

You used EnABL, but what about C37 lacquer (which i'll use to finish the birch baffles anyway)?

 

[Scottmoose]

Hmm. C37. That's the one that was analysed & discovered to be a combination of two varnishes that you should be able to buy from down the local DIY shop & then packaged & sold for a fortune isn't it? http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1328287#post1328287

BTW -do you have the FR8C's? Hemp Acoustics was merged into Ecologic Acoustics some time ago, and the driver was discontinued, unless you can find somewhere flogging off old stock currently gathering dust on their shelves. Presumably it is the basis for the EA's FR8Ci, but things have been extremely quiet & AFAIK, they are still not available.

 

[planet10]

hemp paper recipe that Brown Soun uses

BTW, the preferred recipe in their patent application has no real hemp in it, just a pretender.

dave

 

[BudP]

Telstar,

I cannot really help you on the use of materials other than what I have settled on.

I will say that I have tried a wide variety of clear varnishes, oils and polyester resins and have found all of them to be detrimental to the performance of the speaker. Some exaggerate the resonant peaks, the harder poly resins, and some slow the activity in the cone so much that it actually alters the frequency of pure tones to their flatted equivalent.

If you want to achieve the performance I spoke of above, please use the EnABL treatment found here.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1359745#post1359745 post 1039
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1363694#post1363694 post 1049
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1364505#post1364505 post 1060
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1367676#post1367676 post 1094
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1371260#post1371260 post 1107

And all of the pictures of various treated cones here

http://picasaweb.google.com/hpurvine

If you want to go off on your own and experiment, by all means do so. However, plan on ruining a lot of drivers, so use really cheap ones in the beginning. Before I had the mental train wreck that ended up in EnABL, I spent 15 years with all manner of hardeners, softeners, mass additions, paints, damping materials and schemes for slicing patterns that were refilled with various materials. All because the words to the rock and roll music everyone else was enjoying, made absolutely no sense to my ear / brain combo.

Soongsc provided a novel method for experimentation with patterns and their effects, using toothpaste on a Jordan cone, and his work not only benefited the EnABL process to a huge degree, but lead to his own new and rather wonderful pattern set, one he has applied for a patent on. He even provided us with a CSD teaser from what he has found, over in the main EnaBL thread. Imagine a cone driver, with less resonance and decay ringing than a pure ribbon....

Bud

 

[planet10]

Re: EnABL and C37

[I'm going to use a pair of FR8C, and I'm thinking of using some cone treatments.

You used EnABL, but what about C37 lacquer (which i'll use to finish the birch baffles anyway)?

I am a strong believer in pre-treating paper cones before EnABLing them

The one set of FR8c i modded got C37, and phase plugs (and lost the whizzer -- it is poorly attached, i've since figured out how to do a dustcapectomy without loosing the whizzer (Wild Burro also made by Misco)). I bet thinned puzzlecoat will work as well (C37 is just too expensive for me -- my 1st sample was free)

dave

 

[Scottmoose]

You could probably make your own with a bottle apiece of French polish & linseed oil. I really should mention C37 on my quackery thread elsewhere.

 

[Telstar]

You could probably make your own with a bottle apiece of French polish & linseed oil. I really should mention C37 on my quackery thread elsewhere.

I was considering already using Shellac for the wood, and I will for a first layer to give a dareker tint to my birch. I absolutely refuse to use any chemical in my speakers. That motivation pointed me to check lacquers.

The use on the speakers is secondary, but if i buy the c37 i will surely have enough to put a few layers on the cones too.

Shellack (fresh + alcohol) will set me about 30€ + 50€ at least for the person doing the job. As you know applying shellac is a long process and not the easiest one to do. My time is worth more than that, so I wont pass the Shellack myself.
Then, I would need a gloss finish, no idea what's not synthetic out there.

I checked the thread that you pointed to me and there are more components than shellac and lineseed in the C37 composition. I still think that is overpriced, but it may fit my usage pretty well.
"Probably" and "could" are not in my book.

 

[Telstar]

Re: Re: EnABL and C37

The one set of FR8c i modded got C37, and phase plugs (and lost the whizzer -- it is poorly attached, i've since figured out how to do a dustcapectomy without loosing the whizzer...

And...? How were the results (if u can tell me before phaseplugging)?

 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

I cannot really help you on the use of materials other than what I have settled on.

Foreword: Maybe this is not the right thread, but it was rather short and I erroneously thought that ENABL was just a lacquer.

I will say that I have tried a wide variety of clear varnishes, oils and polyester resins and have found all of them to be detrimental to the performance of the speaker. Some exaggerate the resonant peaks, the harder poly resins, and some slow the activity in the cone so much that it actually alters the frequency of pure tones to their flatted equivalent.

This is why I asked for advice. If i get it, i'll have enough C37 left to treat the driver soo, if i wish.
And yes, the first drivers (the fr8c) are rather cheap and will go on ebay if i dont like the sound after treatment

 

[Scottmoose]

"Probably" and "could" are not in my book.

...and wasting a ludicrous amount of money on a tiny bottle of shellac with some linseed oil added isn't in mine. Zero compromise might seem a good idea in principle, but from my POV, I usually find it's worth checking to see if any compromise is entailed in the first place, especially when you're buying essentially marketing hype. Shades of the high-priced wire brigade.

 

[planet10]

Re: Re: Re: EnABL and C37

And...? How were the results (if u can tell me before phaseplugging)?

It all happened together. They were overall better after but a bit less extended with no whizzer.

Stew Nelles owns the drivers and you can search for his comments.

dave

 

[Scottmoose]

Bet they improved off-axis without the whizzer, even if they lost some of the top end.

 

[BudP]

Telstar,

EnABL is actually about removing the noise floor in drivers. Removing peaks is a good idea too. For this reason the combination of Planet 10 pre-application of chemicals and then applying the EnABL process over that treated cone works as well as it does. The gloss coat I use is an acrylic resin, as this material has the least impact upon timbre and tone and does not, by itself, affect resonance nodes. It's use is to distribute the effects of the pattern block masses, tiny as they are, across the entire cone.

The eventual result of the two processes, Dave's pre treatment and EnABL, is worth any amount of time to accomplish, if your goal is accurate retrieval of music, from the loudest peak notes down to the least important emphasis and quietest tones.

Bud

 

[Telstar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: EnABL and C37

Stew Nelles owns the drivers and you can search for his comments.

dave

I found his posts in the fr8 thread and sent him an email
Thanks.