Full range and sub suggestions for a dance studio

[dsm]

It's been a while... good to be back.

Meanwhile, I am out of touch and found myself seeking out a solution to my wife's dance studio that currently uses 8" ceiling speakers.

I'd like to replace those with a small full range wall box wall mounted and a sub.
Danley Go2 boxes came to mind but are way out of the budget so it's back to DIY.

The room is roughly 24x38'. Speakers placed on the long wall.

She has one class, hip-hop, that may tax the system. Otherwise , it's not played very loud.

Looking forward to suggestions.

 

[waxx]

I'm busy with a system for a friend who likes bass heavy steppersdub, featuring the box i already build for myself, wich is an 11.5L sealed box with a Mark Audio Alpair 10M. As sub his box will use a SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6 in 77L sealed enclosures, with a crossover at 200Hz. This is very similar like my system, where i put a Scanspeak 26W8534G00 woofer in the 77L box.

Both work very good, but the SB driver goes a bit lower (F10 in mid 20's) in the same box than the Scanspeak driver (F10 in low 30's). Efficiency is about 86dB with my crossover, and this system can handle 60w in 8R. Theoretical this should give you about 105dB in stereo without roomgain. I play a lot of music trough it, and even the bass heavy dub and jungle i listen to, does not lack nothing on this system with the Scanspeak. The version with the SB does give a bit more relaxed sub as the speaker is tuned lower than the music has material.

Mine (with the scanspeak) look like on the picture, but you can adapt the form to your wishes as that is not so important with sealed speakers. You can even build them in a wall if you wish. As long as the inner volume is respected and there is a bit space behind each driver it will work. Off course you got to fill the box with polyfill or the like to make this work well.

 

[chris661]

I'd avoid HiFi full-range speakers. They simply don't have the power handling to cope with the demands of a dance studio.

Usual questions:
- Budget?
- Any equipment already?
- Space available?
- SPL requirements?

I'd guess that this is going to come out looking like a PA system. 8" coaxials over 12" subs would be a reasonable start, but bigger is often better.

Chris

 

[waxx]

An other id is to use this driver with shallow woofer, like the
SB Acoustics SW26DBAC76-3-DV, that is only 85mm deep, and needs a 10L cabinet to give a solid 30Hz. You could make a full wallmount speaker with this, a Mark Audio 10M in a 11.5L cabinet (wich can be crossovered from 100Hz up) and this woofer in a same size cabinet. This is all toghetter maybe a 25L cabinet, so put against a wall. A 95cm high, 30cm wide and 15cm deep cabinet could be the result. And that should be wallmountable if you have a solid wall.

Just throwing id's...

 

[waxx]

I'd avoid HiFi full-range speakers. They simply don't have the power handling to cope with the demands of a dance studio.

Usual questions:
- Budget?
- Any equipment already?
- Space available?
- SPL requirements?

I'd guess that this is going to come out looking like a PA system. 8" coaxials over 12" subs would be a reasonable start, but bigger is often better.

Chris

It depends on the size of the dancestudio. This one is a smaller one (24x38') and that is more or less the size of my living room, where i run a 5.25 FR and a 10" woofer till home shaking loud with a 32w amp...

For bigger studio's, i would also go look at pro audio gear. But for this one not.

 

[chrisb]

Hafta agree with Chris on this one. You could do worse than to take a look at some of the systems on his commercial site for inspirations as to format of PA more likely to be up to the challenge of surviving. “Not really all that loud, dear” is usually the guy’s line.

Even something like any of the small stage PA / reinforcement packages such as PA Speaker Systems - Parts Express ?

 

[dsm]

I'd avoid HiFi full-range speakers. They simply don't have the power handling to cope with the demands of a dance studio.

Usual questions:
- Budget?
- Any equipment already?
- Space available?
- SPL requirements?

I'd guess that this is going to come out looking like a PA system. 8" coaxials over 12" subs would be a reasonable start, but bigger is often better.

Chris

The students are young so, we have to be mindful of the spl.

The four 8” ceiling speakers (Mica) are plenty loud but sound horrid to me and I can’t stand sound overhead.
Plus, it’s a drop ceiling and we have spill over the walls since the walls do not go all the way to the deck. They are 5/8” Sheetrock with insulation so little sound is transmitted through the walls.
There are two studio rooms separated by a lobby/parent waiting area.
One needs to be able to carry on a conversation in the lobby.

I was thinking a couple of Faital 3FE25 per side might be enough hi passed at 200hz. Then a single sub in a corner. Powered of course.
I have several LAB 12 subs in horns I am not using. One in a sealed box might be enough.

Other surplus speakers I have here are some Eminence Alpha and Beta 8s which worked ok as small stage monitors but I’m not sure they would be any better sounding than the ceiling speakers.

Budget??? It’s way over budget. That’s why I threw the ceiling speakers in instead of the Danley Go2s.

 

[perceval]

Every time i read this kind of request, my first though goes to an 8" from Dayton or the Betsy-k, placed in a Karlson enclosure.
That gives the reach and the wide spread of sound.

Especially if crossed over to subs at 80-100 Hz.
They would tackle anything you throw at them.

 

[waxx]

That LAB12 in a sealed (35L) enclosure is a good id, it will work with an F3 of 50hz and an F10 of 30Hz. But those Faital 3FE25 drivers are not more powerfull than the Mark Audio i mentioned or any other hifi FR driver that could fit this setup. You will need at least 4 to keep up with the sub (2 for each side).

Maybe a cheap bigger fullrange as a Fane 12-250TC in a 50L cabinet could do it better with one driver at each side. It's also a pro audio driver like the LAB12, but with some correction in the crossover also very fit for hifi, and if you crossover it arround 100hz, it can take 60 watt and is higher efficient (98db) so that result in 110dB on each side as max volume (louder than you ever will use it). I would use a dsp for this dance studio setup anyway, so the difference in efficiency is not really important.

 

[perceval]

Are you really trying to compare an Alpair 10M 6" to a Faital 3" ?

The Faitals are 91dB, if you add 4 of them, it's the sub that will have trouble keeping up with the Faitals and will run out of steam fast!

I do like the idea of Fane 12 or 15", in corner enclosures though.
That could work well.

Let's keep the Alpairs out of this discussion...
Definitively not for this application.

 

[xrk971]

You could do a dual PA130-8 XKi (in parallel 4ohm and ~94dB/2.83v). Bass down to about 80Hz. Wide dispersion with the K aperture. Drivers are pro oriented and can handle some power.

I also like Beta 8cx coaxials. You need to do your own crossover for them though and depending on the CD, could be very good.

I would offload the bass below 80Hz on any of these with a sub though.

 

[waxx]

Are you really trying to compare an Alpair 10M 6" to a Faital 3" ?

The Faitals are 91dB, if you add 4 of them, it's the sub that will have trouble keeping up with the Faitals and will run out of steam fast!

Let's keep the Alpairs out of this discussion...
Definitively not for this application.

I was comparing them to show that their maximum volume is the same, the Faital can only handle 20w, while the alpair handles 40, and is only 2dB less efficient. I know you don't want those, but if you want to use an other fullrange, you need to see that or they can handle more wattage, or are more efficient. The Fane 12-250TC can do both (way more than you need). But other options are also valid of course...

 

[mark100]

Are you really trying to compare an Alpair 10M 6" to a Faital 3" ?

The Faitals are 91dB, if you add 4 of them, it's the sub that will have trouble keeping up with the Faitals and will run out of steam fast!

Having concentrated on PA speakers, I've found the easiest way to judge output capability is simply to compare displacements. (Sd x Xmax)

Maximum output capability is inevitably limited at the low end of the frequency spectrum, since equal SPL across the spectrum needs a 4x increase in displacement for each octave decrease.

So if you are comparing the Alpair 10M with 88.25 Sd and 7.5 xmax = 662
to four 3FE25's with 30.2 Sd and 1.83 xmax = 55.3 x 4 = 221,
first blush would give the Alpair 10M more SPL capability.

However the Alpair10M has a Xmax protective limit at 7.5mm, so 7.5mm max.
The 3FE25 specifies Xdamage at 7.9mm, so there is some room above xmax.
It works out the four 3FE25's would need to be pushed to 5.5mm excursion to match the 10M's displacement.

All this assumes of course, that the alternative are covering equal freq range.

This is the kind of real world assessment that always rears up, when trying to figure out why pro-sound stuff isn't as loud as it's supposed to be, or has holes in the response.

Bottom line, TS parameters are small signal parameters....and sensitivity is an eyeball spec off of a response curve ....
.....extrapolate SPL off sensitivity up to AES wattage ratings at great peril vs reality.

 

[dsm]

I appreciate all the suggestions.
Way out of budget is the b&c 8cx21. If I could get it to play low I may not need a sub which saves the budget. But it’s doubtful that it will have any output below 60hz. Especially hanging on the wall.

 

[waxx]

Cheapest way will be the fane 12" fullrange wich cost a 80€ over here (and similar at yours i guess) and your Lab12's in sealed subs, it keeps the size of the box small (less wood to cut), and goes low enough for hiphop and modern pop, and lower than needed for most other music. You could make floorstand cornerspeaker for those like you suggested, as both combined you'll need an about 90L enclosure. (50+35+bracing and other wood). Use a cheap dsp as crossover and some cheap but decent class D amps (good enough for a dance studio) and your set. I don't know another driver who offer this power and good sound at this price.

 

[chris661]

dsm, do you have any tweeters on-hand?
I'm thinking 2x Lab12s in ported boxes and 2x Beta-8 with tweeters on stands.

Chris

 

[dsm]

dsm, do you have any tweeters on-hand?
I'm thinking 2x Lab12s in ported boxes and 2x Beta-8 with tweeters on stands.

Chris

I may still have some eminence APT drivers and 100 degree horns.

 

[type]

It's been a while... good to be back.

Meanwhile, I am out of touch and found myself seeking out a solution to my wife's dance studio that currently uses 8" ceiling speakers.

I'd like to replace those with a small full range wall box wall mounted and a sub.
Danley Go2 boxes came to mind but are way out of the budget so it's back to DIY.

The room is roughly 24x38'. Speakers placed on the long wall.

She has one class, hip-hop, that may tax the system. Otherwise , it's not played very loud.

Looking forward to suggestions.

Unless you're looking for a project, I'd suggest getting some NHT Superzero or Superone's, both are sealed box designs, so you can wall mount them; they sound fantastic and are ridiculously inexpensive. Add an SVS sub and you're set.

 

[GM]

+1 These were/are my default bang/buck recommendation.

GM

 

[dsm]

Unless you're looking for a project, I'd suggest getting some NHT Superzero or Superone's, both are sealed box designs, so you can wall mount them; they sound fantastic and are ridiculously inexpensive. Add an SVS sub and you're set.

Do you think they will provide enough output?
Looks like they are only 85db at 2.83v sensitivity.