First Mid/Highs build Midbass heavy PA speakers

BIGlep

Member
2016-05-28 8:05 pm
Hey everybody. To go with the 15" subwoofer I have I want to build a pair of music/ht/party speakers. I want them to get loud..like LOUD.

I already own a pair of perfectly flat klipsch monitors with a small 8" sub tuned low for my sq listening and want a pair of PA tops.

The sub to pair is a 15" PSI Platform 2 car subwoofer that will be on 650 watts until I can get a larger amp. Then I will have around 2000 rms.

While loudness is my #1 priority, and I would completely mind slightly bright highs as is inevitable with PA style horns tweeters, I want them to still sound good enough for everyday listening in the livingroom/kitchen. So good voicing and clarity with a (relatively speaking for PA speakers) flattish FR though the midrange into the highs.

My biggest thing is I want a lot of midbass. That good punch that you get in the chest. The amp I plan to use is a behringer 4 channel 75 watt @ 4 ohms and 45 watt @8 ohms. All rms. I figured I would go active with the 2 way highs using an external crossover I have.

For spl goals I would like a loudness aproaching concert levels in a small apartment room.

With everything I said I was wondering what size mid woofer I should look at. I have found 10 or so 8 and 10" PA midranges on parts express and after choosing a size I would like you guys help to choose which one would best suit my needs. The horn tweeters I see myself using as of now are the PRV WG1-175Ph. The reason for choosing it is its ability to be highpassed as low as 2000hz and take rated power (as if I would need all of rated power to keep up with the mids) which should help me avoid beaming with larger midranges.

Thank for your help everybody:)
 

AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
The Geddes style waveguide/15" midbass are loud, efficient, and are hifi. Club levels in your home are achievable cleanly. The econowave project by Zilch is a lower cost look at the same concept. The waveguide you choose makes the difference from the stereotypical 'PA' sound.

Your 45+45 amp should get quite loud with these. The 'RMS' qualifier doesn't apply to Watts but I know what you mean so based on that, it's all we talk about here. 2000W is just huge for normal home use.
 

BIGlep

Member
2016-05-28 8:05 pm
The Geddes style waveguide/15" midbass are loud, efficient, and are hifi. Club levels in your home are achievable cleanly. The econowave project by Zilch is a lower cost look at the same concept. The waveguide you choose makes the difference from the stereotypical 'PA' sound.

Your 45+45 amp should get quite loud with these. The 'RMS' qualifier doesn't apply to Watts but I know what you mean so based on that, it's all we talk about here. 2000W is just huge for normal home use.

I googled econowave, is it just the suggested compression driver and horn that I seem to be seeing? Is it a well known good combination for a horn tweeter I'm guessing?
 

BIGlep

Member
2016-05-28 8:05 pm
I'm tight on money at the moment so do you think that simply running the speakers in active without the mini DSP would still be ok until I could save up a bit more to purchase the actual dsp? I would just use gain attenuation to level match the woofer and tweeter. I understand the effect that would have on FR but would it impact the directivity and beaming very badly?
 

AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
Have you personally listened to this setup?
I have built several large OS waveguides, round and otherwise. Originally I followed the two way formula but otherwise the tweeter remained as is. It can be crossed below 1kHz and subjectively it is virtually distortion free to its maximum level. At night it could probably be heard from a mile away ;)


I'm tight on money at the moment so do you think that simply running the speakers in active without the mini DSP would still be ok until I could save up a bit more to purchase the actual dsp? I would just use gain attenuation to level match the woofer and tweeter. I understand the effect that would have on FR but would it impact the directivity and beaming very badly?
I normally use passive crossovers but am partially active (analogue). There really isn't much of a difference, it depends on your skill level. A simple crossover like you suggest can get you good sound. Great sound takes a very complex crossover but don't let that put you off.

Directivity is set by the waveguide, baffling and woofer size (the woofer size needs to be chosen primarily for the crossover point as that sets its directivity to match the waveguide). The crossover needs to blend the two in the right way at the right frequency, but you can work on that.

The crossover should also perform any equalisation, level setting, and the usual range setting.
 

BIGlep

Member
2016-05-28 8:05 pm
I have built several large OS waveguides, round and otherwise. Originally I followed the two way formula but otherwise the tweeter remained as is. It can be crossed below 1kHz and subjectively it is virtually distortion free to its maximum level. At night it could probably be heard from a mile away ;)



I normally use passive crossovers but am partially active (analogue). There really isn't much of a difference, it depends on your skill level. A simple crossover like you suggest can get you good sound. Great sound takes a very complex crossover but don't let that put you off.

Directivity is set by the waveguide, baffling and woofer size (the woofer size needs to be chosen primarily for the crossover point as that sets its directivity to match the waveguide). The crossover needs to blend the two in the right way at the right frequency, but you can work on that.

The crossover should also perform any equalisation, level setting, and the usual range setting.

This sounds like a plan. I plan to cross them over at 80hz on the low side so I will be able to gain efficiency since I'm not chasing flatness down low. For now I'll stick to a simple 12db/oct crossover with the inverted tweeter. After some rough modelling that 12" in that box seems to take 50 watts at 80hz which is 3db down so crossed over there should be perfect if I ever want to get a larger highs amp around 100 watts per channel. This is assuming a 50L box which would include a displacement of 2 L for the woofer and 3L for the horn assembly. I'm going to use the D220-ti for now but may upgrade to the B&C unit at another time.

Thank you for the help.
 

AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
Ideally the waveguides are the same size or larger than the woofer. If you want to use a 12" woofer the tweeter should be controlled below 2kHz where it will be crossed.

They are sensitive. You can do a lot with 1 Watt. So moving on to the woofers you will probably be interested in an efficient one although with an active crossover you do have a choice, but it should be well behaved at it's higher frequencies which is something a paper cone with pleated surround can be.
 

BIGlep

Member
2016-05-28 8:05 pm
Ideally the waveguides are the same size or larger than the woofer. If you want to use a 12" woofer the tweeter should be controlled below 2kHz where it will be crossed.

They are sensitive. You can do a lot with 1 Watt. So moving on to the woofers you will probably be interested in an efficient one although with an active crossover you do have a choice, but it should be well behaved at it's higher frequencies which is something a paper cone with pleated surround can be.

I plan to use the suggested 12" eminence woofer. It has good frequency response, is in my budget and has an efficiency within the given passband of around 96-97 db. Once gain matched the woofer and tweeter should be able to push into the 115db range cleanly down to 80 hz with a LR 12db/oct cross over to the subwoofer.
 

AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
Your waveguide concerns me, but you have to start somewhere.. Rather than cross your woofers to the sub, why not try to just put the sub in some location where the woofers are failing to get bass to. This is not terribly simple but I think it is a better approach.
 

BIGlep

Member
2016-05-28 8:05 pm
Your waveguide concerns me, but you have to start somewhere.. Rather than cross your woofers to the sub, why not try to just put the sub in some location where the woofers are failing to get bass to. This is not terribly simple but I think it is a better approach.

Well it is more than I want to protect the midranges from overexcursion and the inherent reduction in power handling at low frequency when the subwoofer is better suited to such a task.

For the waveguide I plan to use the Pyle model that is suggested on gainphile article for the econowave. In there measurements it seemed to perform admirably with the selenium compression driver. Heres a link: Gainphile: S15 - Econowave DSP