First DIY system: 4-ways! Peerless, HiVi, TangBand, Fountek

[Candisa]

Hi,

We're new to building our own home-audio speakers. We were planning to build a couple outdoors F.A.S.T. speakers first "to get the hang out of it", but since we have a limited budget at the moment and we already have all the drivers we need to build the indoor-project we want, we'll start with that one and do the outdoor speakers later...

This project will be a 4-ways setup consisting of:
- Peerless 12" XXLS subs
- 2 Peerless 10" PR's per speaker
- HiVi M8a woofers
- TangBand W4-1337 mids
- Fountek NeoCD1.0 tweeters

 

[Candisa]

The design:

To prevent problems with baffle-step, we want to keep the baffle the same width from top to bottom.

The subwoofer enclosure will be made out of 30mm thick MDF, with the subwoofer in the front and the PR's in the sides.

Because of the size of the subwoofer, the overall width has to be 34cm.
To get the tweeters at ear-level, the height of the box will be 45cm, and to get the right volume, the depth will be 38cm.

This is how the subwoofer-part of the speakers will look like seen from the left (Links), front (Voor) and right (Rechts):

 

[Candisa]

We want to work with decoupling between the subwoofer, woofer and mid+tweeter, so the woofer will get its own enclosure that will be mounted on top of the subwoofer enclosure.

Like I said before, we want to keep the width of the speaker the same from top to bottom, so the width of this enclosure will be 34cm as well.
To keep the drivers as close as possible to eachother, we want to keep the height of the woofer-enclosure as low as possible, so this will be 26cm.
To give enough volume to the woofer and leave some extra space for bracing, the passive filter... the depth will be 30cm.

In combination with the subwoofer, this is the result:

 

[Candisa]

I don't see why the midrange and the tweeter should get their own enclosure, so these will be combined together in 1 enclosure.
Again, the width will be 34cm.
To be able to put the drivers in it, the height will be 26cm, and since the width and height is already exactly the same as the woofer-enclosure, we'll keep the depth the same too: 30cm.

The total picture becomes:

 

[Candisa]

That's all for now!

Additional information:
- The woofers, mids and tweeters will be filtered passively and powered by a regular stereo-amplifier.
- The subwoofers will be filtered actively and powered by a dedicated subwoofer-amplifier.

Isabelle

 

[Cal Weldon]

Hi Isabelle:

New to building, trying to get the hang of it and starting with 4 ways. That is certainly ambitious. I'll let the others deal with some of the finer points but since I have experience with PR systems I can help you a little there. It will be a struggle to make it work with a 12" woof and two 10" drones per speaker. You might want to reconsider the design. For a 12" driver you will want either a single 15" or two 12" drones minimum per cabinet. Trying it with two 10" you will run into trouble with cone farting as soon as you turn it up.

 

[dantheman]

I'd recommend reading through this stuff:
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk at Parts-Express.com
mh-audio.nl - Home

This is an ambitious project. Best of luck.

Dan

 

[Xeentje]

Closed would be another option, but I know she wants maximum output with max low-end extension... We'll see how it turns out.

It's pretty ambitious and we got some other options: Using the css trio8's for instance... But she wants to use those in the car since there's not really that much space to put in the subs since we need the trunk for groceries.

 

[chlorofille]

Looks like a good, fun project. You seem to know more than you admit to. =)
For the sub, try to go ported if possible. The Peerless XXLS 12'' is a killer in a 75L ported box tuned low. I'm using the 12'' XXLS 830847 dual voice coil version. What is your exact subwoofer number? All your speaker sensitivities are well chosen too.
Good stuff.

-Dinesh-

 

[Candisa]

Cal: I already have 2 subs and 3 PR's laying around. I bought these subs and pr's 2 years ago to use in my car.
I based this choice on Peerless recommendations: Peerless recommends 1 12" sub in combination with 1 12" PR, and since I tought 3 10" cones looked nicer than 2 12" cones and 3 10" cones have about the same total area as 2 12" cones, I went that way...

Since I already have these subs and PR's laying around, it was more logical to buy another 10" PR and use 2 of those per sub, than to spend a lot more money and buy 2 or 4 12" PR's and still have those 3 unused 10" PR's laying around...

According to the simulations I made in WinISD, 2 10" PR's per 12" sub should suffice with the power we're planning to give them.

dantheman: thanks for the links, I'll give a look at them.

chlorofille: Like I said: I already have those PR's, so it would be a shame not to use them. Apart from that, 75L is a lot bigger than we want. The subs I have are the ....44 version, 4ohms, Nomex cone, very low Qts, optimized for use with PR's...

Isabelle

 

[Cal Weldon]

Isabelle, a 1:1 ratio PR's to woofer requires a special PR and even then you can run into excursion problems. I have done this enough times to know. You really don't want to drop it below a 1.5:1 ratio and 2:1 is better regardless of what WinISD says. With two 10's you will be attempting a 1.35:1. That will limit your max SPL but if you understand that ahead of time then I wish you well with the project.

I think you are actually making a 3.5 system rather than a 4 way.

Cheers.

 

[Candisa]

About the PR's: Those are things I didn't knew back then. I read a very positive review about the Peerless XXLS subs, I knew I wanted 2x12" subs, then I came across the Peerless application note that recommends using 1 12" PR per 12" sub, thought that 3x10" is about the same as 2x12", so I went that way.

2 10" PR's have a one-way volume displacement of 1465cm³ (333cm² surface area, 22mm x-max).
1 12" sub has a one-way volume-displacement of 600cm³ (480cm² surface area, 12.5mm x-max).
So while the cone area of 2 10" PRs is only 1.35 times the cone area of a 12" sub, the volume displacement of 2 10" PRs is over twice the volume displacement of a 12" sub and like I said, I won't be pushing the subs to their limits, so I don't worry about it.

This will be a true 4-ways system, not a 3.5-ways:
Subwoofer: sub-bass only: 20-60Hz
Woofer: midbass only: 60-300Hz
Mid: midrange only: 300-5000Hz
Tweeters: high only: 5-20kHz

Isabelle

 

[Cal Weldon]

Yes, I mistyped. I meant to say you have a bi-amped four way. Bit of a brain cramp this morning. Sorry for the mix-up.

 

[Cal Weldon]

You know, some days start off bad and just get worse. Bi-amped four way would be if they are all in the same box. Let's try again... 2.2 anyone?

 

[Candisa]

Actually it's a 2.2.2 if you want to call it that way. 2 seperate "satellites", 2 "filling" woofers and 2 subwoofers.

But I wouldn't call it that way. It is true that the mids+tweeters, the woofers and the subwoofers will get their own seperate enclosures, but they'll be physically mounted on top of eachother with minimal space in between, so it are actually 2 bi-amped 4-ways speakers.

Isabelle

 

[Dr_EM]

You may also consider the popular DIY design (using this midrange and similar ribbon tweeter, along with comparable metal cone woofers) "Statements" or one of the many variations of them. This variation is most similar to what you propose:

Statements_Monitor

And you could add in your active subwoofer(s) to round it out. I suspect if you went for the full size statements you may not need subs at all unless you're very keen on action films!

Statements

Just presenting a tried and approved option . I used the Hi-Vi M8a in my 3 ways, nice woofers, really tight in sealed alignment and very attractive (imo!)

 

[Cal Weldon]

OK, I will stop now.

If you look at my link you'll see the two sets of bi-amped 4 ways I most recently built. They are all mounted in the same divided cabinet. I really like the versatility of them. Easy to place in almost any environment. Here's a sketch of the small ones with the mid and tweet OB. They are actually rectangular, the camera angle makes them look like a coffin.

 

[mayhem13]

OK, I will stop now.

If you look at my link you'll see the two sets of bi-amped 4 ways I most recently built. They are all mounted in the same divided cabinet. I really like the versatility of them. Easy to place in almost any environment. Here's a sketch of the small ones with the mid and tweet OB. They are actually rectangular, the camera angle makes them look like a coffin.

WoW Cal......those give some real meaning to 'monkey coffins'!

 

[Candisa]

All very nice designs, but we do not want to build something that already exists (on purpose).
This is our first DIY project and building an existing design would make it a lot easier, especially since we don't have any experience with passive crossovers, but we have some ideas we'd like to embed in these speakers (f.e. the decoupled enclosures) and we want to build something that's "from us".

That's also the reason why we've chosen to keep the design very simple and basic (f.e. the width being the same from top to bottom to keep the baffle-step behavior stable).
I think we'll learn more and have more fun building something we designed ourselves from scratch, than by copying something that already exists and probably not understanding everything that we're doing...


Dr. EM and anybody else with experience with the M8a woofers:
We're planning to use the M8a's in sealed enclosures too. Do you think about 15L (.6 cu.ft.) is enough for them?
That's the volume the woofers will really see, so I already subtracted the volume of the woofer itself, bracing... and without any stuffing.
We'll only let them play down to 60, maybe 50Hz, so tight natural midbass behavior and good power handling is what's important for us, low-end extension doesn't matter at all since that's why we have the subwoofers for...

Isabelle

 

[navin]

This project will be a 4-ways setup consisting of:
- Peerless 12" XXLS subs
- 2 Peerless 10" PR's per speaker
- HiVi M8a woofers
- TangBand W4-1337 mids
- Fountek NeoCD1.0 tweeters

Cal: I already have 2 subs and 3 PR's laying around.

Any reason for this particular combination of drivers?

Other than 2 12" woofers and 3 10" PRs do you happen to have any more of the above drivers?

To prevent problems with baffle-step, we want to keep the baffle the same width from top to bottom.

We want to work with decoupling between the subwoofer, woofer and mid+tweeter, so the woofer will get its own enclosure that will be mounted on top of the subwoofer enclosure.

Tapering the sides will reduce standing waves.

You should look at Richard Vandersteen's designs specifically their Quattro , Model 5 and Model 7.

Stereophile: Vandersteen Quattro Signature Mk.2

UltraAudio.com Equipment Review - Vandersteen Audio Model Seven Loudspeakers (5/2010)

This will be a true 4-ways system, not a 3.5-ways:
Subwoofer: sub-bass only: 20-60Hz
Woofer: midbass only: 60-300Hz
Mid: midrange only: 300-5000Hz
Tweeters: high only: 5-20kHz
Isabelle

With the subwoofer crossed over so low it need not be front facing se picture below

project 10

All very nice designs, but we do not want to build something that already exists (on purpose).belle

Good thing. One of the great advantages od IY is to build something that suits yourself.