Been living in France since mid 2009.after leaving Spain after 8 years. The Spanish word 'enchufargo' explains all, it means to be connected, I wasn't and if you aren't nothing is possible, 80% of all €500 notes were to be found in Spain, mainly in brown paper bags. No matter how much research you do you can't trust notarios/alcaldes/bankos/abogados/immobiliarios you can still end up having your house bulldozed and being fined an awful lot of money - so we left.
Would have bought land and built my own design house but health problems got in the way for the next 6 years. We will get our Residency papers soon removing any doubts about continuing to live in France.
I was all set on buying a plot of land with building consents but for some reason or other I happened to look at American motor homes and further 'fifth wheels and travel trailers'.
Why - there is land with building consents, around €30K and there are other plots of land which you can use for recreation - loisirs which is very cheap, €5-10K normally around 1000-1500 sq.m. There you can park a campervan etc. no problem but you cannot build a house.
I've read quite a bit on American sites about the good and bad points with motorhomes, fifth wheels and travel trailers. I've ruled out motor homes, so I'm only interested in fifth wheels and travel trailers.
Any Americans or Canadians with actual experience I would welcome real time info from.
A lot of problems can happen because of (a) being on the road and (b) from being left out in all weathers.
I would construct a reinforced concrete hard standing with a water proofing additive above the level of the ground and once sited would not be moved, that should take care of problems associated with being on the open road. I would also construct an insulated skirt to protect the underbody from corrosion. I believe that I can have a water supply connected as well and have a fosse septic. With a diesel generator that makes me pretty independent of Big Brother.
If I build a house then I have to pay the housing tax known as Tax foncier, this is creeping up with every year. Living in the either model avoids this tax and insurance is cheaper, much less chance of theft or damage with living full time in it.
Some well known names in the RV industry have a bad reputation and you can't trust user reviews supplied by the companies themselves because no way will a company publish stinking reviews of their companies products.
If anyone can direct me to good user forums I would be grateful.
Problems with buying American - 120V electrics and non existent servicing, though apparently this is a problem in the States as well.
Why buy American - 30ft + are hard to find in Europe and like so many other things Europe is far more expensive than the USA. There are many top of the range models with loads of features that are around $80-90K. Yes I know I would have to pay shipping and in France a TVA/sales tax of 20% but then I have a fully fitted home I can move into straight away. Very good insulation is another +. compared to an old French house where you swelter in the summer and freeze in the winter. New French houses are so noisy (construction materials) and they are obsessed with having tiled floors - no thank you.
The biggest negatives for me are the colour schemes of so many are very dark, not a good idea when living permanently in one and cookers are for me outdated when a quality multi-oven is so much better. A big shower is also a good idea. We don't need sleeping for 8, there are just the two of us and at our age we don't expect lots of visitors. a massive fridge is not a good idea rather a decent sized fridge and freezer.
So please direct me to good RV users forums and any other useful tips or suggestions - thank you
Would have bought land and built my own design house but health problems got in the way for the next 6 years. We will get our Residency papers soon removing any doubts about continuing to live in France.
I was all set on buying a plot of land with building consents but for some reason or other I happened to look at American motor homes and further 'fifth wheels and travel trailers'.
Why - there is land with building consents, around €30K and there are other plots of land which you can use for recreation - loisirs which is very cheap, €5-10K normally around 1000-1500 sq.m. There you can park a campervan etc. no problem but you cannot build a house.
I've read quite a bit on American sites about the good and bad points with motorhomes, fifth wheels and travel trailers. I've ruled out motor homes, so I'm only interested in fifth wheels and travel trailers.
Any Americans or Canadians with actual experience I would welcome real time info from.
A lot of problems can happen because of (a) being on the road and (b) from being left out in all weathers.
I would construct a reinforced concrete hard standing with a water proofing additive above the level of the ground and once sited would not be moved, that should take care of problems associated with being on the open road. I would also construct an insulated skirt to protect the underbody from corrosion. I believe that I can have a water supply connected as well and have a fosse septic. With a diesel generator that makes me pretty independent of Big Brother.
If I build a house then I have to pay the housing tax known as Tax foncier, this is creeping up with every year. Living in the either model avoids this tax and insurance is cheaper, much less chance of theft or damage with living full time in it.
Some well known names in the RV industry have a bad reputation and you can't trust user reviews supplied by the companies themselves because no way will a company publish stinking reviews of their companies products.
If anyone can direct me to good user forums I would be grateful.
Problems with buying American - 120V electrics and non existent servicing, though apparently this is a problem in the States as well.
Why buy American - 30ft + are hard to find in Europe and like so many other things Europe is far more expensive than the USA. There are many top of the range models with loads of features that are around $80-90K. Yes I know I would have to pay shipping and in France a TVA/sales tax of 20% but then I have a fully fitted home I can move into straight away. Very good insulation is another +. compared to an old French house where you swelter in the summer and freeze in the winter. New French houses are so noisy (construction materials) and they are obsessed with having tiled floors - no thank you.
The biggest negatives for me are the colour schemes of so many are very dark, not a good idea when living permanently in one and cookers are for me outdated when a quality multi-oven is so much better. A big shower is also a good idea. We don't need sleeping for 8, there are just the two of us and at our age we don't expect lots of visitors. a massive fridge is not a good idea rather a decent sized fridge and freezer.
So please direct me to good RV users forums and any other useful tips or suggestions - thank you
Around here, if I take the wheels off, a trailer becomes a taxable structure. Be sure your local taxman is *never* going to think of that.
For that reason, mostly what we use for not-moving housing is Manufactured Homes, which covers many types. From a 20' field office to double-wide, triple-wide, and modular stacked.
I can't believe you could have one delivered from the US to France at acceptable price. But maybe you know shippers.
For that reason, mostly what we use for not-moving housing is Manufactured Homes, which covers many types. From a 20' field office to double-wide, triple-wide, and modular stacked.
I can't believe you could have one delivered from the US to France at acceptable price. But maybe you know shippers.
Attachments
Too bad these are way back-ordered.
Elon Musk Now Lives in a $50,000 Prefab Tiny House in Texas | Architectural Digest
Elon Musk Now Lives in a $50,000 Prefab Tiny House in Texas | Architectural Digest
There is a large dealer of American 5th wheels, and camping trailers in the UK. This has to win over trying to get one here shipped and converted (I assume the UK dealer sells them converted to European use). The prices seem high with very little below 100K Euros.
Hey BS,
There is a big difference between a 5th wheel/travel trailer and a mobile home of which you speak. Do a little googling first. I own a travel trailer but would not consider using it for permanent accommodation. It isn't meant for that and won't put up with it.
There is a big difference between a 5th wheel/travel trailer and a mobile home of which you speak. Do a little googling first. I own a travel trailer but would not consider using it for permanent accommodation. It isn't meant for that and won't put up with it.
PRR,
taking the wheels off would make it permanent - a no-no on land designated as for loisirs only and yes the taxman would know that wrinkle here as well. One of the reasons why few Europeans buy LPs/CDs etc. from the USA is the outrageous prices of airmail, shipping is another matter. I know it's a long time ago now but in 82 I was going to try my luck in Sri Lanka. The mother of a close friend was effectively a princess and knew all the important people in that country, so I would have all the right contacts. It was famous for making spare parts for a well known make of British sports car. To hire a container cost then around £1000 all up, shipped to Felixstowe the big container port on England's east coast I reckon on paying around £10K/$14K shipping from an east coast port to France either on the Atlantic coast or possibly Marseille in the Med or to Bilbao in NW Spain.Both these ports are within easy striking distance of where it would be sited. As a point of interest I saw the other day that the difference for post by ship was 1/50th of airmail.
Scott - if I buy it in the UK then I get hammered for TVA @ 20% taking it to France and a possible Customs check which would be another 9%. Anyway importers in the UK like the EU sit on their **** and add a huge mark-up. I would definitely buy a diesel generator and some of the best are Cummins and Perkins and and a pure sine wave inverter to provide 120V so American appliances using this voltage will not be a problem.
Rayma - what got me looking at the 5th wheel/travel trailers is a series of programmes on the TV specifically about RVs and tiny houses. I cannot believe that so many in the States are laying out serious money on these t/houses , when the same money or less will buy a really nice t/trailer or a small class A motor home and most definitely they are only for the young. Also any fire either from the outside or inside will turn them into a torch in minutes, since they are all timber, simply crazy. Why are so many American houses made of flimsy timber in areas where there are forests and or where termite is king is beyond me when you have a product that is nearly 100 years old now - the aercrete block - fireproof/insect proof and with amazing thermal; and acoustic properties. all those houses burning down in the western States and Oz - aercrete block built with metal roofs and lightweight steel roof joists would still be standing. I can put up a wall in totally superior aercrete block faster than an outdated stud and plaster board wall that offers no privacy or thermal and acoustic properties to begin matching those of aercrete blocks. If I find that for various reasons that this idea is not feasible then that is what I will use to build a house. I worked with this material a long time ago and would'nt think about using anything else to build a house, it's a no brainer.
'
CW - I've done a lot of googling already if you read my post I'm not interested in a 'mobile home' if I was I would be looking at a residential site where you are at the mercy of the site owner who would'nt allow anyone to bring their own onto the site and of course you've got nosy gossiping neighbours and high charges and 'tax foncier' a lot of foreigners chose the wrong parts of France to live in and have faced massive increases in this tax and more to come in the future - who do you think is going to pay for the eye watering costs of the pandemic - yes that's right the mugs who pay taxes.
Can't agree about 5th wheel or travel trailers. Many are now using them for just this purpose. Most of the problems are caused by using them on the open road, if you read my post that is not my purpose, it will be static. AFAIK I can build a 'car port' with a strong metal roof structure to withstand violent hail storms, there have been some with hail the size of golf balls that smashed roofs to pieces. Once, when we lived a bit farther north in the Aveyron we had a hail storm and I rushed down with a glass to catch some of the hail/ice to make a gin and tonic - very nice too. Oh and of course I would never buy land near any kind of wood or forest. First it was Turkey, then Greece and now Spain and France - the Var is ablaze as I write. France is the only country in western Europe that did'nt stupidly cut down all their forests and they have a solid export business in French oak and using wood as a fuel is way cheaper than fuel oil or having an ugly big LPG tank in the garden, not to mention that if someone does'nt like you a hunter's bullet can turn it into explosive fire bomb in a moment.
30ft is rec. as a minimum length for permanent occupation - how long is yours CW?. what make, what model is it, how do you use it, when, winter, summer you hav'nt supplied any info, only your opinion.
Like most vehicles once you drive it off the forecourt you've lost 20% of the value. I found one site that outlaid the whole depreciation thing. Very often RVs of all types come up for sale because a lot are bought by retired people and the driver, normally the man dies within a year or two of buying.
The advice seems to be buy one, two or three years old with little use so the price drops an awful lot - $40-50K would be a realistic price - ergo the EU tax comes in a lot less, only the shipping price remains the same.
10 years ago I could build a house with just one helper but after a lifetime with no back problems that's not on now and whilst French builders work hard like builders across Europe they are hidebound by their own countries way of working and materials - not for me, hence my interest in buying an American RV. I may find something European but I doubt it.
taking the wheels off would make it permanent - a no-no on land designated as for loisirs only and yes the taxman would know that wrinkle here as well. One of the reasons why few Europeans buy LPs/CDs etc. from the USA is the outrageous prices of airmail, shipping is another matter. I know it's a long time ago now but in 82 I was going to try my luck in Sri Lanka. The mother of a close friend was effectively a princess and knew all the important people in that country, so I would have all the right contacts. It was famous for making spare parts for a well known make of British sports car. To hire a container cost then around £1000 all up, shipped to Felixstowe the big container port on England's east coast I reckon on paying around £10K/$14K shipping from an east coast port to France either on the Atlantic coast or possibly Marseille in the Med or to Bilbao in NW Spain.Both these ports are within easy striking distance of where it would be sited. As a point of interest I saw the other day that the difference for post by ship was 1/50th of airmail.
Scott - if I buy it in the UK then I get hammered for TVA @ 20% taking it to France and a possible Customs check which would be another 9%. Anyway importers in the UK like the EU sit on their **** and add a huge mark-up. I would definitely buy a diesel generator and some of the best are Cummins and Perkins and and a pure sine wave inverter to provide 120V so American appliances using this voltage will not be a problem.
Rayma - what got me looking at the 5th wheel/travel trailers is a series of programmes on the TV specifically about RVs and tiny houses. I cannot believe that so many in the States are laying out serious money on these t/houses , when the same money or less will buy a really nice t/trailer or a small class A motor home and most definitely they are only for the young. Also any fire either from the outside or inside will turn them into a torch in minutes, since they are all timber, simply crazy. Why are so many American houses made of flimsy timber in areas where there are forests and or where termite is king is beyond me when you have a product that is nearly 100 years old now - the aercrete block - fireproof/insect proof and with amazing thermal; and acoustic properties. all those houses burning down in the western States and Oz - aercrete block built with metal roofs and lightweight steel roof joists would still be standing. I can put up a wall in totally superior aercrete block faster than an outdated stud and plaster board wall that offers no privacy or thermal and acoustic properties to begin matching those of aercrete blocks. If I find that for various reasons that this idea is not feasible then that is what I will use to build a house. I worked with this material a long time ago and would'nt think about using anything else to build a house, it's a no brainer.
'
CW - I've done a lot of googling already if you read my post I'm not interested in a 'mobile home' if I was I would be looking at a residential site where you are at the mercy of the site owner who would'nt allow anyone to bring their own onto the site and of course you've got nosy gossiping neighbours and high charges and 'tax foncier' a lot of foreigners chose the wrong parts of France to live in and have faced massive increases in this tax and more to come in the future - who do you think is going to pay for the eye watering costs of the pandemic - yes that's right the mugs who pay taxes.
Can't agree about 5th wheel or travel trailers. Many are now using them for just this purpose. Most of the problems are caused by using them on the open road, if you read my post that is not my purpose, it will be static. AFAIK I can build a 'car port' with a strong metal roof structure to withstand violent hail storms, there have been some with hail the size of golf balls that smashed roofs to pieces. Once, when we lived a bit farther north in the Aveyron we had a hail storm and I rushed down with a glass to catch some of the hail/ice to make a gin and tonic - very nice too. Oh and of course I would never buy land near any kind of wood or forest. First it was Turkey, then Greece and now Spain and France - the Var is ablaze as I write. France is the only country in western Europe that did'nt stupidly cut down all their forests and they have a solid export business in French oak and using wood as a fuel is way cheaper than fuel oil or having an ugly big LPG tank in the garden, not to mention that if someone does'nt like you a hunter's bullet can turn it into explosive fire bomb in a moment.
30ft is rec. as a minimum length for permanent occupation - how long is yours CW?. what make, what model is it, how do you use it, when, winter, summer you hav'nt supplied any info, only your opinion.
Like most vehicles once you drive it off the forecourt you've lost 20% of the value. I found one site that outlaid the whole depreciation thing. Very often RVs of all types come up for sale because a lot are bought by retired people and the driver, normally the man dies within a year or two of buying.
The advice seems to be buy one, two or three years old with little use so the price drops an awful lot - $40-50K would be a realistic price - ergo the EU tax comes in a lot less, only the shipping price remains the same.
10 years ago I could build a house with just one helper but after a lifetime with no back problems that's not on now and whilst French builders work hard like builders across Europe they are hidebound by their own countries way of working and materials - not for me, hence my interest in buying an American RV. I may find something European but I doubt it.
Whatever you get make sure it has a slide-out section for at least the main living area, some have them for the bedroom also.
We lived in a 26’ fifth wheel for two years (with two 100lb dogs) no problem…..the slide-out was key to spaciousness.
We lived in a 26’ fifth wheel for two years (with two 100lb dogs) no problem…..the slide-out was key to spaciousness.
Black Stuart,
The tiny house movement has made me laugh, having bought a couple travel trailers for less than they pay in materials, before the builder spends ages designing and building Rube Goldberg schemes to multi-purpose the too-small area.
I owned, and lived in a mid 1960s 28 foot Streamline trailer for around 8 months in Minnesota in the mid 1990s. Looked similar to the 31" in the photo below.
I paid around $3000 for it, everything worked OK. Built a subwoofer to fit in the closet by the door, used the built in speakers it came with above. Sold it for about the same price as I paid to a friend who used it as a second house on his parent's farm.
It does not have the extra space a slide-out section would provide, but has the basic essentials- separate bathroom, bedroom and kitchen/living room.
The design and construction of the Streamline is similar to Airstream, but they don't fetch as high a price on the used market, now being relatively unknown after production ceased in 1974.
Built like aluminum airplanes (including full bellypan), they hold up well, a 60 year old Streamline may still be viable for another 60 years, unlike the typical modern trailer trash being built for the lowest cost/highest margin in a saturated market that may be landfill junk in a decade.
Art
Attachments
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Hi,
You want to do this in France?
Well it could be ok to park and live in a trailer on a 'terrain non constructible' but for periods under 3 month only in a row ( afaik).
But it is conditioned to an agreement with the major's village and where the place is located ( there is a classification from 'Natural' to industrial environnment): if in 'N' zone it'll be almost always forbiden be sure.
The major's agreement is definitive ( for the period he is elected) and can't be discussed once given ( this work both ways if yes or no). But if the next major disagree with it's predecessor...
You could not built a carport as it is considered as an unmovable built. There is way to pass through this limitation by building it removable but the law state it must be removable anyday and on ask/will from authority. So if gendarmes tells you to do it you'll have ( very) short delay allowed.
You'll have to find a way to treat and collect your waste ( dirty water, domestic waste, etc,etc,...) and this can be a nightmare. Better think about it beforehand: if there is a trailer park around and owners are friendly they can allow you to use their own facility for a fee but it'll depend of their will.
If you decide to locate on an area which accept trailers during summer they can have public facility for this but be sure their will be trailers parks around and they'll forbid any location outside the parks or dedicated area ( it'll be difficult to locate your trailer on your own terrain as major will say noway!). If you ever been in Vendee you may see what i'm talking about...
One last thing is that France is not very friendly overall to 'nomad' way of life ( except during summer on some area but there is still tons of rules to follow).
Expect to be bothered by neighbourood in countryside ( they'll check for any fault you could do and report it) especially if you are not already known by them.
You want to do this in France?
Well it could be ok to park and live in a trailer on a 'terrain non constructible' but for periods under 3 month only in a row ( afaik).
But it is conditioned to an agreement with the major's village and where the place is located ( there is a classification from 'Natural' to industrial environnment): if in 'N' zone it'll be almost always forbiden be sure.
The major's agreement is definitive ( for the period he is elected) and can't be discussed once given ( this work both ways if yes or no). But if the next major disagree with it's predecessor...
You could not built a carport as it is considered as an unmovable built. There is way to pass through this limitation by building it removable but the law state it must be removable anyday and on ask/will from authority. So if gendarmes tells you to do it you'll have ( very) short delay allowed.
You'll have to find a way to treat and collect your waste ( dirty water, domestic waste, etc,etc,...) and this can be a nightmare. Better think about it beforehand: if there is a trailer park around and owners are friendly they can allow you to use their own facility for a fee but it'll depend of their will.
If you decide to locate on an area which accept trailers during summer they can have public facility for this but be sure their will be trailers parks around and they'll forbid any location outside the parks or dedicated area ( it'll be difficult to locate your trailer on your own terrain as major will say noway!). If you ever been in Vendee you may see what i'm talking about...
One last thing is that France is not very friendly overall to 'nomad' way of life ( except during summer on some area but there is still tons of rules to follow).
Expect to be bothered by neighbourood in countryside ( they'll check for any fault you could do and report it) especially if you are not already known by them.
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krivium,
thanks for that, your post has killed the idea completely - what a shame. And yes I did know that the local marie has exceptional (by UK standards) powers.
Also I'm not sure that not having a 'fixed' address would be acceptable to the taxman = end of idea.
Having looked extensively at the commercial RVs in both the US and the EU there are so many negatives aka transferring the fixed mentality/ inertia around house building to RVs - insulation - most RVs come with glass fibre which is itself insufficient when there are excellent alternatives / small showers when a wet room would be easy to achieve / kitchens, where to start - storing food in living areas when properly constructed wet (temperature controlled) and dry larders would be far better, fitting out dated ordinary cookers and dish washers, boasting of using 'solid' work surfaces when st/steel would be far better and lighter. Far too many windows, mostly single glazed and none with Argon gas filled units, top hinged, not sliding ( a very bad idea) and all opening units with mosquito netting and most importantly with interior lightweight insulated shutters rather than stupid useless curtains. Bedrooms which need openable windows for hot weather, most don't come with small bedside shelves. Fixed heating units when fan heaters which can be moved, are cheap and far more efficient. Arm chairs that are exactly the same as per housing, heavy, with such an enormous market why havn't lightweight versions been created. It wasn't Thomas W Crapper who thought up the flushing toilet but his assistant - a thoroughly bad idea - flushing toilets use 40% of all household water and that's water that has been expensively treated - to flush a toilet - insane. Take a 10 gallon plastic drum with a snap top lid, build a 'thunderbox' around it and remove the nibs on an ordinary toilet seat, replace with a butyl seal, clean with a small portable steam cleaner (cheap), plenty of places to empty it, result - no blackwater tank nec. and fit another water tank if you want. Install a bog standard water treatment unit (only needed for drinking water). I'm sure that an awful lot of weight could be avoided but that requires an open mind.
weltersys - can only agree wholeheartedly with your comments on the Airstream and modern RVs. On a UK site someone wants to buy a s/hand bus and start from scratch, they and their family have the skills and if they don't have the all too familiar Brit mentality of 'building down to a price' rather than 'up to a standard' then they should end up with a first rate vehicle to live full time in. If I was younger this is what I would do.
So, it's down to building a house. krivium I was really disappointed when I read the new French 2012 building Regs. They are all about keeping vested interests happy rather than approaching construction with an open mind - so it goes.
thanks for that, your post has killed the idea completely - what a shame. And yes I did know that the local marie has exceptional (by UK standards) powers.
Also I'm not sure that not having a 'fixed' address would be acceptable to the taxman = end of idea.
Having looked extensively at the commercial RVs in both the US and the EU there are so many negatives aka transferring the fixed mentality/ inertia around house building to RVs - insulation - most RVs come with glass fibre which is itself insufficient when there are excellent alternatives / small showers when a wet room would be easy to achieve / kitchens, where to start - storing food in living areas when properly constructed wet (temperature controlled) and dry larders would be far better, fitting out dated ordinary cookers and dish washers, boasting of using 'solid' work surfaces when st/steel would be far better and lighter. Far too many windows, mostly single glazed and none with Argon gas filled units, top hinged, not sliding ( a very bad idea) and all opening units with mosquito netting and most importantly with interior lightweight insulated shutters rather than stupid useless curtains. Bedrooms which need openable windows for hot weather, most don't come with small bedside shelves. Fixed heating units when fan heaters which can be moved, are cheap and far more efficient. Arm chairs that are exactly the same as per housing, heavy, with such an enormous market why havn't lightweight versions been created. It wasn't Thomas W Crapper who thought up the flushing toilet but his assistant - a thoroughly bad idea - flushing toilets use 40% of all household water and that's water that has been expensively treated - to flush a toilet - insane. Take a 10 gallon plastic drum with a snap top lid, build a 'thunderbox' around it and remove the nibs on an ordinary toilet seat, replace with a butyl seal, clean with a small portable steam cleaner (cheap), plenty of places to empty it, result - no blackwater tank nec. and fit another water tank if you want. Install a bog standard water treatment unit (only needed for drinking water). I'm sure that an awful lot of weight could be avoided but that requires an open mind.
weltersys - can only agree wholeheartedly with your comments on the Airstream and modern RVs. On a UK site someone wants to buy a s/hand bus and start from scratch, they and their family have the skills and if they don't have the all too familiar Brit mentality of 'building down to a price' rather than 'up to a standard' then they should end up with a first rate vehicle to live full time in. If I was younger this is what I would do.
So, it's down to building a house. krivium I was really disappointed when I read the new French 2012 building Regs. They are all about keeping vested interests happy rather than approaching construction with an open mind - so it goes.
The point made by Cal regarding full time living is a valid one, as most just aren’t built well enough or have the right finishes to stand up to constant use.
There’s an understanding amongst many that once that an RV has been lived in for a year, it’s not going to be desirable.
Have you looked at one of these?
Yurt House | Top Rated Yurt Homes | Shelter Designs
I’ve always figured that one could be assembled onto a concrete pad and then stored, along with any fixtures, cabinets during off season inside a shipping container shed, on a vacation property, if needed, or just hauled away.
There’s an understanding amongst many that once that an RV has been lived in for a year, it’s not going to be desirable.
Have you looked at one of these?
Yurt House | Top Rated Yurt Homes | Shelter Designs
I’ve always figured that one could be assembled onto a concrete pad and then stored, along with any fixtures, cabinets during off season inside a shipping container shed, on a vacation property, if needed, or just hauled away.
phase - I understood completely what CW was saying that was why I mentioned that someone on a Brit site was going to construct a home using a s/hand bus and had the skills to do so. Buses are built to last an awful long time, used in all types of weather and on all types of roads. The benchmark has to be Airstreams that keep going.
Yurts/tiny houses etc. are for the young - we are not. I knew plenty of Brits in the 70s/80s who converted buses and long wheel base vans to live in when working mainly 'on the black' in the Netherlands and Germany, made a wodge of money and then took off literally on a 'journey to the East' - they were young.
Having worked in 3 different European countries I don't know anywhere that combines the best practices and materials of all countries to build homes - it all comes down to vested interests and the 'inertia effect' aka we've always done it this way. Look at California and Australia - the insanity of building flimsy, mainly wooden homes in high fire risk areas when there are materials that are fireproof, insect proof, thermally and acoustically efficient. Building houses at ground level by rivers or on flood plains - insane but so are the idiots that buy or rent them. You want to build or buy a home by a river then build it off the ground so that the actual house itself is built above any possible height of flood water. Add a top class waterproofing agent to the concrete and you've added a whole area the same size as the house for storage, a den, playroom - no need for flood insurance or fire. Face off the ugly dense concrete finish with whatever stone/tile finish you like. In France in la Vendee in 2004, 44 people died because they bought or rented houses where the apex of the roof was below sea level - insane but true. In Provence people drowned trying to rescue their cars in underground car parks - why, weren't the cars insured.
Buy a new house in France or Spain and they all ring like a bell why because they use 3 inch thick hollow clay blocks that give zero privacy and you have to use special fixings to hang anything on the walls. Tiled floors that are cold and noisy and all wiring has to go above single skinned plasterboard ceilings, same for the walls if plasterboard is used instead of the clay blocks - all crap construction.
A house is the biggest investment that most people make - do they bother to use the net to ascertain the best materials or construction techniques - do they hell - there's a Boy George song - la genta es muy stupido - es la verdad.
Where I live and now that the idea of some type of RV has been torpedoed where I shall buy land the substrata is clay or clay marl - you have to be careful with substrata like this why, a dry year followed by a very wet year can easily mean' heave'. Which leads onto the most important part of a house that you cannot see - the foundations. That's where you spend money. Raft type foundations make sense. Leaving starter (steel) bars to make steel cages that are shuttered and accurately to have an absolutely flat surface to build on and using a waterproofing agent to the concrete mix are a must, that way you have the best DPC possible. Factory made reinforced concrete floor plates sited with a crane mean no possible damp penetration or cold seeping through because you have created a big air gap, then build using aercrete blocks (invented in 1924 in Sweden by (shock/horror) an architect. All easy to find out on the web. The English think that cavity wall construction is the best in the world LOL - no it's not it's because English face bricks absorb water, at least the Dutch use semi-engineering bricks and rake out the joints using silver sand pointing that is waterproof. I could go on and on but the point is research is going to save a lot of heartbreak and money. If no one buys crap built houses and clued up people demand properly built houses, guess what builders will build them. Building Regs. are not the optimum but the minimum but how many people realise this - la genta es muy stupido.
Yurts/tiny houses etc. are for the young - we are not. I knew plenty of Brits in the 70s/80s who converted buses and long wheel base vans to live in when working mainly 'on the black' in the Netherlands and Germany, made a wodge of money and then took off literally on a 'journey to the East' - they were young.
Having worked in 3 different European countries I don't know anywhere that combines the best practices and materials of all countries to build homes - it all comes down to vested interests and the 'inertia effect' aka we've always done it this way. Look at California and Australia - the insanity of building flimsy, mainly wooden homes in high fire risk areas when there are materials that are fireproof, insect proof, thermally and acoustically efficient. Building houses at ground level by rivers or on flood plains - insane but so are the idiots that buy or rent them. You want to build or buy a home by a river then build it off the ground so that the actual house itself is built above any possible height of flood water. Add a top class waterproofing agent to the concrete and you've added a whole area the same size as the house for storage, a den, playroom - no need for flood insurance or fire. Face off the ugly dense concrete finish with whatever stone/tile finish you like. In France in la Vendee in 2004, 44 people died because they bought or rented houses where the apex of the roof was below sea level - insane but true. In Provence people drowned trying to rescue their cars in underground car parks - why, weren't the cars insured.
Buy a new house in France or Spain and they all ring like a bell why because they use 3 inch thick hollow clay blocks that give zero privacy and you have to use special fixings to hang anything on the walls. Tiled floors that are cold and noisy and all wiring has to go above single skinned plasterboard ceilings, same for the walls if plasterboard is used instead of the clay blocks - all crap construction.
A house is the biggest investment that most people make - do they bother to use the net to ascertain the best materials or construction techniques - do they hell - there's a Boy George song - la genta es muy stupido - es la verdad.
Where I live and now that the idea of some type of RV has been torpedoed where I shall buy land the substrata is clay or clay marl - you have to be careful with substrata like this why, a dry year followed by a very wet year can easily mean' heave'. Which leads onto the most important part of a house that you cannot see - the foundations. That's where you spend money. Raft type foundations make sense. Leaving starter (steel) bars to make steel cages that are shuttered and accurately to have an absolutely flat surface to build on and using a waterproofing agent to the concrete mix are a must, that way you have the best DPC possible. Factory made reinforced concrete floor plates sited with a crane mean no possible damp penetration or cold seeping through because you have created a big air gap, then build using aercrete blocks (invented in 1924 in Sweden by (shock/horror) an architect. All easy to find out on the web. The English think that cavity wall construction is the best in the world LOL - no it's not it's because English face bricks absorb water, at least the Dutch use semi-engineering bricks and rake out the joints using silver sand pointing that is waterproof. I could go on and on but the point is research is going to save a lot of heartbreak and money. If no one buys crap built houses and clued up people demand properly built houses, guess what builders will build them. Building Regs. are not the optimum but the minimum but how many people realise this - la genta es muy stupido.
More often than not, the environment dictates the materials used to construct a home. While much of what you say is correct, it is what is readily available and what is suited to build in that area. 'Brick and mortar' is fine on bedrock and in windy conditions but not so good for seismically active zones. That's where stick framing comes in. Here on the west coast of North America we have ideal lumber for house construction and fault lines coming out of our gazoo. Match made in heaven even if it does mean a potential fire hazard. There is compromise in every structure. Plusses and minuses must always be weighed.
Have you thought about a houseboat? They are quite popular in my area, it’s even called the ‘redneck riviera’ ! 😀
Not sure about there in France but here any river that’s in national forest (unless designated as prohibited) and as long your not in the navigable waterway is fair game to tie off your houseboat, it must be registered as a boat and have an approved sewage storage tank with pump out capabilities.
I’ve actually been thinking about building one.
Not sure about there in France but here any river that’s in national forest (unless designated as prohibited) and as long your not in the navigable waterway is fair game to tie off your houseboat, it must be registered as a boat and have an approved sewage storage tank with pump out capabilities.
I’ve actually been thinking about building one.
Black Stuart, i'm sorry to be a killjoy but better be aware of this beforehand.
I know all this because my father was architect ( retired 10 years ago) and since mid 90's i've had many friends which decided to (try to) live differently, most of them learned the restriction the hardway and went back.
This included Yourt ( which are adapted to the desert of Mongolia not so well to Continental Climates), vans and boats (in France on rivers the restrictions are even more stringent than for trailers).
I'm with Cal about building method: they are related to the environnement, the climat, etc,etc,... or at least it is for 'historical' build. Sure if you want to buy a 'new' house you'll face the 'standard' material and technique used atm: since 80's in France this is plasterboard 'shoebox' rooms typically.
For what i've seen the future in France will be wood based rather than stone/concrete: easier to build, setup on place, with good thermal/insulation performance, renewable and stock some co2, can be less costly to implement too ( it will depend).
As Cal pointed there is some tradeoff first being they are not fireproof: i once seen a build in process using wood wool as insulation catching fire and despite claims of this insulation being fire retardant material it did not take long to be a pile of ashes ( maybe 2 hours). But even a typical stone built isn't fireproof: walls could resists but roof will usually not and once it collapse it takes everything with it anyway... it allow maybe some minutes to save you but not more anyway.
I don't know if there is some 'ultimate' materials in the end, all have pros and cons and it really depend of the build too: i'm owner of an old house in Britanny countryside ( built circa 1700) and the nature of walls doesn't allow any insulation from the inside ( because of dew point issue and rot). Only external insulation is possible which limit the kind of material that can be used ( foam/polystiren is a no no as it doesn't allow walls to 'breathe') to either rockwool/glasswool or woodwool... neither of them i favour but if i want to not waste to much money on heating i've no other choices.
The same with the heating system... either nuclear powered ( electricity in France is 90% Nuclear sourced), oil powered ( through gas which release very fine particle and is not better than fuel overall - fuel will be banned in 2024 in France for home heating ) or wood ( which produce fine particles and release co2)... choose your poison!
If i had the money i would build using 'bio climate' approach using most possible passive heating approach/insulation with clever use of what the location as to offer including 'pre heating' of air ( through 'Canadian Well' - not sure it is called like that in english! ), earth heating and solar energy.
Felix Trombe was a famous french researcher in the field during 60's/70's and he had impressive results (le 'Mur Trombe' which was experimented in Font Romeu/Odeillo, France (near the 1Mega Watts solar oven he built in the same place) is a very interesting way to limit energy imprint).
Well anyway there is room to experiment for all this and it works ( we have 'passive house' near us which garantee 18*c without heating all year long ).
What are the 2012 reg you talked about Black Stuart?
And about La Faute sur mer/ L'aiguillon sur mer and the drama happening in 2004, there is things to be said: these place are Polder based ( like most of Netherlands those are place gained over ocean) and peoples thoughts the risks were past as since 17th century there wasn't real issue about it... couple this with pressure from people to live near the ocean and some lands been changed from forbiden to allowed for construction ( and there was dike to protect anyway they thoughts).
Ubris and greed. Like always...
I know all this because my father was architect ( retired 10 years ago) and since mid 90's i've had many friends which decided to (try to) live differently, most of them learned the restriction the hardway and went back.
This included Yourt ( which are adapted to the desert of Mongolia not so well to Continental Climates), vans and boats (in France on rivers the restrictions are even more stringent than for trailers).
I'm with Cal about building method: they are related to the environnement, the climat, etc,etc,... or at least it is for 'historical' build. Sure if you want to buy a 'new' house you'll face the 'standard' material and technique used atm: since 80's in France this is plasterboard 'shoebox' rooms typically.
For what i've seen the future in France will be wood based rather than stone/concrete: easier to build, setup on place, with good thermal/insulation performance, renewable and stock some co2, can be less costly to implement too ( it will depend).
As Cal pointed there is some tradeoff first being they are not fireproof: i once seen a build in process using wood wool as insulation catching fire and despite claims of this insulation being fire retardant material it did not take long to be a pile of ashes ( maybe 2 hours). But even a typical stone built isn't fireproof: walls could resists but roof will usually not and once it collapse it takes everything with it anyway... it allow maybe some minutes to save you but not more anyway.
I don't know if there is some 'ultimate' materials in the end, all have pros and cons and it really depend of the build too: i'm owner of an old house in Britanny countryside ( built circa 1700) and the nature of walls doesn't allow any insulation from the inside ( because of dew point issue and rot). Only external insulation is possible which limit the kind of material that can be used ( foam/polystiren is a no no as it doesn't allow walls to 'breathe') to either rockwool/glasswool or woodwool... neither of them i favour but if i want to not waste to much money on heating i've no other choices.
The same with the heating system... either nuclear powered ( electricity in France is 90% Nuclear sourced), oil powered ( through gas which release very fine particle and is not better than fuel overall - fuel will be banned in 2024 in France for home heating ) or wood ( which produce fine particles and release co2)... choose your poison!
If i had the money i would build using 'bio climate' approach using most possible passive heating approach/insulation with clever use of what the location as to offer including 'pre heating' of air ( through 'Canadian Well' - not sure it is called like that in english! ), earth heating and solar energy.
Felix Trombe was a famous french researcher in the field during 60's/70's and he had impressive results (le 'Mur Trombe' which was experimented in Font Romeu/Odeillo, France (near the 1Mega Watts solar oven he built in the same place) is a very interesting way to limit energy imprint).
Well anyway there is room to experiment for all this and it works ( we have 'passive house' near us which garantee 18*c without heating all year long ).
What are the 2012 reg you talked about Black Stuart?
And about La Faute sur mer/ L'aiguillon sur mer and the drama happening in 2004, there is things to be said: these place are Polder based ( like most of Netherlands those are place gained over ocean) and peoples thoughts the risks were past as since 17th century there wasn't real issue about it... couple this with pressure from people to live near the ocean and some lands been changed from forbiden to allowed for construction ( and there was dike to protect anyway they thoughts).
Ubris and greed. Like always...
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krivium - what to say about architects - nothing good. They are obsessed with the visual, just look at the ugly egotistical rubbish put up in London/Paris etc. My caveat is Japanese architects, some of their projects are wonderful.
Form should follow function - a mantra that most refuse to accept - the function of a house or apartment block is to create an effective barrier between the exterior and interior environment, very few ever achieve this goal or equally important privacy.
Most architects have maybe worked a few weeks in the summer on site. Before anyone applies to go to a school of architecture. They should first have shown that they are competent in groundwork/concreting/steel fixing/brick and blockwork and maybe stonemasonry/first and second fix carpentry/painting and decorating. Then and only then should they be considered for a course.
I remember working on a new build estate. It was when metric bricks were first used in the UK. The moron/architect designed square bay windows where these new metric bricks had so many cuts it was unbelieveable. When you used the cutting edge of a trowel the other end fell off. When he turned up on site he was facing being decked. An experienced old brickie tore him to pieces. He hadn't a clue - he should have designed the bays so that it minimalised the amount of cuts - remember this was a new build, so he wasn't restricted. As an aside, it used to be the case in the USA that they made 'bats' (half bricks) and king and queen closures - no need to cut, that's why there is no cutting edge on an American trowel. I get really hacked off that arecrete blocks which are made using an extrusion process don't create factory made half blocks, it would save so much time - half bond is the accepted method world wide for structural strength, though Dutch quarter bond is acceptable for single story building.
krivium if you live in France then you will know that termites are a huge problem. The only wood that has long term viability is oak/chene - you French are the only people in Europe not to cut down the oak forests and so make a lot of money in exports. Oak is cut and used green, given time it becomes like stone and the termites have a hard time eating it. Check out al the centuries old oak framed buildings in France and the UK but that isn't the wood being used in modern builds, it's all softwoods that termites love or these softwoods use nasty chemicals to stop termite damage but these don't last and have to be used over and over again.
Sad to say but soon it will be France's turn to see the massive forest fires like in Greece/Turkey and Portugal. to build flimsy wooden houses in and around woodland is plain stupid and I'm sure that in California and Oz they will rebuild using the same stupid methods - la genta es muy stupido.
Aercrete blocks - there are no cons with this material but guess what the French don't make them but the Germans - xella and the Dutch (de Yong, sold to Anglo- American) make the best. In 2012 the French building Regs. were updated - LOL. did they ban the use of dense concrete blocks - they did not, did they ban the use of red clay hollow blocks for interior walls or the honeycombed exterior blocks - they did not - vested interests. Single plasterboard walls where they don't even tape the joints and laughably use galvanised steel stud (instead of softwood) to create an insulation barrier - steel is an excellent heat transfer material - LOL. Long time ago in the UK it was illegal to have any electrical point within 1 metre of a faucet (water tap) not so in France. no wash basin in a toilet and the same really stupid system of steam extraction that operates 24/7 instead of timer controlled extractor fans, even the Spanish use these. Instead of using factory made reinforced concrete floor plates which are dead flat they build floors insitu that are never real y flat directly onto the ground - really, really bad for heat transfer and the obsession with tiled flooring , maybe OK in the tropics but crazy in the French climate and the reason being - termite infestation.
You don't need walls to breathe you need to install - air change systems. The ones on the market are crazy, using air drawn at roof level - LOL in summer the air is hot, in winter the air is cold and these systems use lots of electricity and are expensive to run.
In the 70s they built houses across northern Europe using polystyrene insulation but no air change systems - children developed lots of pulmonary problems because the stale air was full of micro organisms.
I have designed an air change system using ordinary components that are time tested until I have built and proved this system I say nothing - all theory must come from practice. In summer the air will be cooled and in winter heated and should use around 80-100 W in use. Domestic kitchens are a joke - the function of a kitchen is to prepare and cook food that is it's function and nothing else. In all four corners of the planet modern commercial kitchens use - stainless steel. It lasts for ever and is really easy to keep clean - a very important health issue. In the UK it is illegal for a commercial kitchen to store food in a kitchen and quite rightly so, they have cold stores and larders that are away from the kitchen - why not in domestic kitchens - space and expense. In the UK alone, 10 million tons of food are wasted every year - that is obscene.
It is really easy to create dry and wet larders but you have to use material that create an effective barrier between the interior and exterior (just like exterior walls). Using aercrete blocks this is easy to do. The dry larder requires no kind of temperature control. This is where you store bottled/tinned and dry goods and things like onions/garlic/cheeses etc. The wet larder needs to keep a constant humidity of between 60-65%. the electronic circuits needed are simple to design. This is where you can safely store vegetables, with a temperature of between 6-8C they will last weeks unlike veg or cheese stored in a fridge. which goes mouldy in no time at all.
The only food stuffs to be kept in a kitchen are dried herbs/spices/stock cubes etc. and something that is unavailable a small fridge with horizontal access - the cold air can't go anywhere. If such a fridge was available it should be made using VEP - vacuum evacuated panels. They would be around 1 inch and such a fridge would use approx. 3-6W and be an order more efficient than today's fridges , same goes for 5* freezers. My Leibherr uses approx. 72W that will go down to around 7W.
Wood burning stoves are very popular in France but once again the 'inertia' effect reigns supreme. Open the fire door to any stove available today and what happens - out gushes lots of very unhealthy smoke, why - because the top of the firebox is horizontal - the hot air is literally pushed out through the exit created by opening the fire door and sucking the hot air and smoke out. If the top plate of the firebox is angled upward to the back of the firebox, the heat and smoke will take the easy path of moving upward - aka heat rises. I'm glad to say that it is now compulsory for wood burning stoves to have an exterior air supply. But I don't see any stoves in France where the air supply can be regulated - all it requires is a butterfly hinge - why not fit an oven directly above the firebox and an integral top plate - free cooking in the winter. In Eastern Europe and Scandinavia 'masonry' stoves are common. You make a fire in the masonry fire box which then heats up the masonry pile which then gradually releases the heat through the material - a bit like a 'night storage unit'.
If governments didn't reside up the rear end of big business and vested interests then housing would already be using most of these materials and ideas today.
Unlike the corrupt self interested schools of architects in Spain I will be able to build my home using aercrete blocks which will make it fireproof/insect proof/thermally and acoustically very efficient. It will be cool in summer without using expensive a/c or lots of energy in winter.
Solar panels - maximum efficiency aprox. 22% this falls as the temperature rises and the sun doesn't shine 24/7 but there are places where wind is constant. Once domestic wind turbines are made better and able to withstand more powerful wind pressures which means using more powerful Txs and much stronger masts and batteries that can hold far more juice ( the graphene type) , they will, in the right locations be the best way to acquire electricity and cheaply.
Yes France uses nuclear energy, 82%. No one is telling the French people just how expensive it's going to be to decommission these plants perhaps200-400 €billion per plant and no one is telling the French people that around Tours there are now about 20 hectares of contaminated material which has a half life of 200,000 years - what a wonderful cadeau for future generations.
Form should follow function - a mantra that most refuse to accept - the function of a house or apartment block is to create an effective barrier between the exterior and interior environment, very few ever achieve this goal or equally important privacy.
Most architects have maybe worked a few weeks in the summer on site. Before anyone applies to go to a school of architecture. They should first have shown that they are competent in groundwork/concreting/steel fixing/brick and blockwork and maybe stonemasonry/first and second fix carpentry/painting and decorating. Then and only then should they be considered for a course.
I remember working on a new build estate. It was when metric bricks were first used in the UK. The moron/architect designed square bay windows where these new metric bricks had so many cuts it was unbelieveable. When you used the cutting edge of a trowel the other end fell off. When he turned up on site he was facing being decked. An experienced old brickie tore him to pieces. He hadn't a clue - he should have designed the bays so that it minimalised the amount of cuts - remember this was a new build, so he wasn't restricted. As an aside, it used to be the case in the USA that they made 'bats' (half bricks) and king and queen closures - no need to cut, that's why there is no cutting edge on an American trowel. I get really hacked off that arecrete blocks which are made using an extrusion process don't create factory made half blocks, it would save so much time - half bond is the accepted method world wide for structural strength, though Dutch quarter bond is acceptable for single story building.
krivium if you live in France then you will know that termites are a huge problem. The only wood that has long term viability is oak/chene - you French are the only people in Europe not to cut down the oak forests and so make a lot of money in exports. Oak is cut and used green, given time it becomes like stone and the termites have a hard time eating it. Check out al the centuries old oak framed buildings in France and the UK but that isn't the wood being used in modern builds, it's all softwoods that termites love or these softwoods use nasty chemicals to stop termite damage but these don't last and have to be used over and over again.
Sad to say but soon it will be France's turn to see the massive forest fires like in Greece/Turkey and Portugal. to build flimsy wooden houses in and around woodland is plain stupid and I'm sure that in California and Oz they will rebuild using the same stupid methods - la genta es muy stupido.
Aercrete blocks - there are no cons with this material but guess what the French don't make them but the Germans - xella and the Dutch (de Yong, sold to Anglo- American) make the best. In 2012 the French building Regs. were updated - LOL. did they ban the use of dense concrete blocks - they did not, did they ban the use of red clay hollow blocks for interior walls or the honeycombed exterior blocks - they did not - vested interests. Single plasterboard walls where they don't even tape the joints and laughably use galvanised steel stud (instead of softwood) to create an insulation barrier - steel is an excellent heat transfer material - LOL. Long time ago in the UK it was illegal to have any electrical point within 1 metre of a faucet (water tap) not so in France. no wash basin in a toilet and the same really stupid system of steam extraction that operates 24/7 instead of timer controlled extractor fans, even the Spanish use these. Instead of using factory made reinforced concrete floor plates which are dead flat they build floors insitu that are never real y flat directly onto the ground - really, really bad for heat transfer and the obsession with tiled flooring , maybe OK in the tropics but crazy in the French climate and the reason being - termite infestation.
You don't need walls to breathe you need to install - air change systems. The ones on the market are crazy, using air drawn at roof level - LOL in summer the air is hot, in winter the air is cold and these systems use lots of electricity and are expensive to run.
In the 70s they built houses across northern Europe using polystyrene insulation but no air change systems - children developed lots of pulmonary problems because the stale air was full of micro organisms.
I have designed an air change system using ordinary components that are time tested until I have built and proved this system I say nothing - all theory must come from practice. In summer the air will be cooled and in winter heated and should use around 80-100 W in use. Domestic kitchens are a joke - the function of a kitchen is to prepare and cook food that is it's function and nothing else. In all four corners of the planet modern commercial kitchens use - stainless steel. It lasts for ever and is really easy to keep clean - a very important health issue. In the UK it is illegal for a commercial kitchen to store food in a kitchen and quite rightly so, they have cold stores and larders that are away from the kitchen - why not in domestic kitchens - space and expense. In the UK alone, 10 million tons of food are wasted every year - that is obscene.
It is really easy to create dry and wet larders but you have to use material that create an effective barrier between the interior and exterior (just like exterior walls). Using aercrete blocks this is easy to do. The dry larder requires no kind of temperature control. This is where you store bottled/tinned and dry goods and things like onions/garlic/cheeses etc. The wet larder needs to keep a constant humidity of between 60-65%. the electronic circuits needed are simple to design. This is where you can safely store vegetables, with a temperature of between 6-8C they will last weeks unlike veg or cheese stored in a fridge. which goes mouldy in no time at all.
The only food stuffs to be kept in a kitchen are dried herbs/spices/stock cubes etc. and something that is unavailable a small fridge with horizontal access - the cold air can't go anywhere. If such a fridge was available it should be made using VEP - vacuum evacuated panels. They would be around 1 inch and such a fridge would use approx. 3-6W and be an order more efficient than today's fridges , same goes for 5* freezers. My Leibherr uses approx. 72W that will go down to around 7W.
Wood burning stoves are very popular in France but once again the 'inertia' effect reigns supreme. Open the fire door to any stove available today and what happens - out gushes lots of very unhealthy smoke, why - because the top of the firebox is horizontal - the hot air is literally pushed out through the exit created by opening the fire door and sucking the hot air and smoke out. If the top plate of the firebox is angled upward to the back of the firebox, the heat and smoke will take the easy path of moving upward - aka heat rises. I'm glad to say that it is now compulsory for wood burning stoves to have an exterior air supply. But I don't see any stoves in France where the air supply can be regulated - all it requires is a butterfly hinge - why not fit an oven directly above the firebox and an integral top plate - free cooking in the winter. In Eastern Europe and Scandinavia 'masonry' stoves are common. You make a fire in the masonry fire box which then heats up the masonry pile which then gradually releases the heat through the material - a bit like a 'night storage unit'.
If governments didn't reside up the rear end of big business and vested interests then housing would already be using most of these materials and ideas today.
Unlike the corrupt self interested schools of architects in Spain I will be able to build my home using aercrete blocks which will make it fireproof/insect proof/thermally and acoustically very efficient. It will be cool in summer without using expensive a/c or lots of energy in winter.
Solar panels - maximum efficiency aprox. 22% this falls as the temperature rises and the sun doesn't shine 24/7 but there are places where wind is constant. Once domestic wind turbines are made better and able to withstand more powerful wind pressures which means using more powerful Txs and much stronger masts and batteries that can hold far more juice ( the graphene type) , they will, in the right locations be the best way to acquire electricity and cheaply.
Yes France uses nuclear energy, 82%. No one is telling the French people just how expensive it's going to be to decommission these plants perhaps200-400 €billion per plant and no one is telling the French people that around Tours there are now about 20 hectares of contaminated material which has a half life of 200,000 years - what a wonderful cadeau for future generations.
Well i for most of it agree with you. But it's a bit over generalisation. My father wasn't part of a 'team' or big 'cabinet', he worked alone in countryside so neither his clients or projects were the kind you described: most clients were regular people with low or regular income and most of his projects were typical house, nothing fancy or egocentric.
And from what i've seen most of his colleague/friends were on the same boat.
One thing i'm sure is that form follow function was one of his mantra, he made a point to build spaces to live in, not to make great/nice pictures.
I had some chat with him in my 20's when i was ambitious (and full of myself) as i didn't understood why he wasn't interested in 'amazing projects': his answer was to remember myself about LeCorbusier productions we visited when i was younger ( he was a fan of the approach the guy had and we had some of his realisation close to where he live - Notre Dame du Haut in Ronchamp, Haute-Saone) and then he explained the last thing LeCorbusier did was a hut...and he prefered to go straight to the point (skip all intermediate steps).
😀
Yes this kind of things happens. You can blame the architect or any people within the chain needed to built.
From what i've heard when i talked about it with my father, in the last years he was active and in the area he worked in, the issue was to find qualified builders.
As i live in France i know you are here overgeneralising again: it may be true in the south west of France ( up to Charentes Maritime or Vendee) much less true for the others 3/4 of the country.
I grown in the area where the oak forest are located ( east of France) and i know exportation is not the only market we have for it: i'm sure you didn't miss that Notre Dame in Paris burned and our president decided to rebuild the carpentry more or less the same so most 'best' oak we have in our forest are now dedicated to this ( most village involved in oak groth HAVE to GIVE AWAY those trees for free and take transport at their own charge! Such a scandal in my view!).
Isn't it already the case? We had a very wet summer this year but we still had big fire in south east AND Landes.
The later is a concern as i can't remember this to happened before.
That said the situation about forest is different in the country you named: we have much more 'organised' forest than our south neighbour because they are not 'natural' or wild: as you pointed we exploit them for profit (and since a very long time! Iirc since 16th century there is no more really 'wild forest' in France, humans organised them for commercial production).
With this come other issues in Landes in particular as they are subject to big tempest and the way the forest are organised make them 'fragile' to big storms. We discovered this in year 2000 when most our forest were destroyed by 'the storm of century'.
Have you ever been in the north of France? Around Lille and the likes? It seems not as you'll then understand why some techniques are still allowed: red clay IS the historical technique used in the place!
For the rest you may be right i don't know if vested interest are at play, maybe? Or maybe the more modest people needs a way to build at low cost too?
To be honest i don't know every place in France but you'll find 'bad practice' everywhere if you look carefully or have bad luck! I don't know where you seen we can have electricity close to water tap but this is not what i've seen done by my father or other serious peoples.
Hmm. Well no. You have issue with termites in your area, in mine we have issues with Mushrooms (la Merule). To have air change system on a 17th century house doesn't make sense for the issue we face and yes the wall in my house need to 'breathe' if i don't want the carpentry to goes away in powder...
Here again you try to adapt 'recent' techniques to historical ones: it won't work. Insulation is difficult for this kind of built and we can't use the same approach.
If you are interested i could post pictures of one of my wall were we clearly see the effect of the concrete floor the former owner built on one of my wall. It is not pretty!
I agree and i'm aware of it. In one of the house my father renovated for my sister we used external 30cm polystyrene insulation and 40cm glasswool below roof ( the house is located in zone 1, with -20*c regularly in winter), the windows have been doubled ( we kept the original single glass windows and added some dual glass windows in contact with outside- with a 30cm plenum between both windows). Without extraction you could get choke in it! But she spend less money in heating than i do...
Worth a try! Don't forget to take a look at passive solution too: there is efficient way to do same thing without energy: 'puits canadiens' and 'puits provencal' comes to mind. Given you are in south west they could be effective solution too.
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Black Stuart, I can appreciate your thoughts, concerns and enthusiasm but krivium is right in many of his points. All situations can be handled correctly.
The disadvantage to using type II or type IV polystyrene insulation is usually cost. Why put it in your walls when fiberglass and rockwool work better for less money. It doesn't breathe as well but who would put in there in the first place? Every insulation has it's place and purpose, rigid board included.
You don't need walls to breathe you need to install - air change systems.
using polystyrene insulation but no air change systems
Two different things. Air exchangers are good. They're made for these super sealed monsters often called R-2000. That is a level of air tightness that is often poorly implemented and leads to a deluge of allergy prone sick children and seniors as you mentioned.
I'll keep my house that breathes so no mould and I open the windows when needed.
I have to inspect these kind of things and I can't help but think we are not necessarily doing ourselves or our workers any favours. Sometimes saving a little energy can have a negative long term effect.
use galvanised steel stud (instead of softwood) to create an insulation barrier
Steel studs instead of stick framing? Okay but not for bearing walls unless you buy pre-manufactured and I get the feeling those are a little too pricey for your average Joe. Here they are used for framing walls on concrete structures like office towers and below grade on the foundations like a finished basement.
The disadvantage to using type II or type IV polystyrene insulation is usually cost. Why put it in your walls when fiberglass and rockwool work better for less money. It doesn't breathe as well but who would put in there in the first place? Every insulation has it's place and purpose, rigid board included.
You don't need walls to breathe you need to install - air change systems.
using polystyrene insulation but no air change systems
Two different things. Air exchangers are good. They're made for these super sealed monsters often called R-2000. That is a level of air tightness that is often poorly implemented and leads to a deluge of allergy prone sick children and seniors as you mentioned.
I'll keep my house that breathes so no mould and I open the windows when needed.
I have to inspect these kind of things and I can't help but think we are not necessarily doing ourselves or our workers any favours. Sometimes saving a little energy can have a negative long term effect.
use galvanised steel stud (instead of softwood) to create an insulation barrier
Steel studs instead of stick framing? Okay but not for bearing walls unless you buy pre-manufactured and I get the feeling those are a little too pricey for your average Joe. Here they are used for framing walls on concrete structures like office towers and below grade on the foundations like a finished basement.
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As i quited sound engineering to run a food truck i can only say i fully agree!
Very clever approach. I've seen some colleague food trucks running fully passive: he use some 'cold accumulator' ( 'plaques eutectiques' in french) and the same materials used to built 'cold chambers'. He managed to have more than 8 hours at 4*c despite an oven which run around 800*c relatively close.
Of course you need to charge the accumulators each days but if you have a freezer it doesn't change many things anyway.
I must say i don't see this so much. Tbh, this is the way my grand parents lived in countryside ( they were farmers and relatively poors).
None of my friends arounds live with this kind of things anymore ( we are in our 40) despite we live deep in the country.
I fear you expect things which wasn't possible when people lived that way ( like the obsession about tiled floor: my grandmother had to clean a lot when my grandfather came back from work in fields... guess why she was obsessed 😉 ): they were poor and had to do with historic built, energy wasn't a preoccupation at the time and the 'ancient' had some effective answers anyway ( if you are interested just take a look at how typical houses were built in Franche-Comte and how they managed to have adapted to tuff climate and the way they lived, or how on Atlantic side they faced issues with wind and humidity - Charente Maritime, Vendee, Morbihan, Finistere, Normandie, etc,etc,...).
I hope your built will bring you satisfaction!
I talked about solar energy not for electricity production but for heating. A 'mur Trombe' will downsize your heating bill 30% with a 'basic' implementation. In optimum location it can be up 60%...
I'm doubtful about solar for electricity atm: the total imprint/cost is 'just' amortizationed on the whole life cycle of hardware and it still pollute a lot. It may change in future but for now i don't see it as a viable solution where i'm located.
Wind turbines still are not positive on their whole life cycle: retreatments of gear pollute a lot ( composite materials used for blades are a nightmare to decommission). Here again maybe it will change.
The only 'clean' way to produce electricity is from water/rivers ( lucky canadians!). Tide power plants have been experimented in brittany, and it works. As well as underwater turbine on rivers... but the issue we have in France is EDF which stop/block all this ( as they did with Felix Trombe during 70's: they invested too much money on nuclear...)
Black Stuart do you really think we are idiots? I mean Brennilis nuclear plant is located less than 200km where i live and it was built to be an example of decommissioning ( not to produce energy, it never did and was never planed to be!)... which they stopped as it was too much money...
Wherever you live on metropolitan France there is a nuclear plant in 150km radius, we have La Hague which is probably the worst dumpster on planet ( less than 300km away from where i live... outdoor pools full of radioactive materials the Greenpeace guys flyed over for many hours without being intercepted by anyone 10 years ago!!! Very reassuring in this time of extremists kamikaze actions) or the worst joke ever EPR plants which will never works and which we are going to finance in the future ( Areva and our dirigeant ubris again!)...
Contaminated materials in Tours are a drop in the ocean: road backfill are made of what in France? I'll let you guess...
I mean we are aware of all this but what can we do about it?! The choices have been made i wasn't even born and the way our dirigeant take care of our opinion talk by himself.
If you have an answer to this please tell us how to do? ( but please no condescending one telling our generation haven't done anything as yours haven't too! (Already had the discussion with my father!) 😉 ).
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krivium,
I'll take your last point first - I don't think the French people are idiots at all, if i did I wouldn't be living in France.
The ordinary French were lied to just like everywhere. I well remember a big fat turd who was the CEO of the then UK State run electricity council lying about how nuclear generated electricity was going to be so cheap they could almost give it away. Around Sellafield in northern England there are so many cases of all types of cancer. The accidents are kept undercover. To cap it all we have taken nuclear waste from other countries for profit today but they don't know where to store it nd the pile keeps growing.
Ironically in the middle ages they built better homes across Europe than they do today. They used oak framed structures and 'daub and wattle' infill (I don't know how to translate this into French, sorry). Many of those house are still standing today. The daub and wattle was a very good form of insulation.
I lived on the south coast of England and from the Georgian period (1800) onward in Brighton and Hove they built homes for the rich in big squares. In the centre of what were going to be parks when the buildings were completed they made the composite render and 'lime mortar'. In about 94 an exhibition was set up actually making theboth the render and lime mortar. It was fascinating and every day it was packed with spectators. What they didn't show or explain was that when they ran out of bricks they sent boys across toe seafront road to collect flints to make up the difference.
Any builder who ever worked on these Georgian/Victorian built squares knows very well how often you had to stop fixing a gas boiler to the wall to remove these sometimes massive flints and remake with bricks and then plaster finish before you could fix the boiler or other things to these walls. What was the only thing that stopped these buildings from literally falling down - 'compo' (composition render).
Compo = sand/cement/small aggregate. When properly made and applied is amazingly long lasting and doesn't suffer hardly at all from weathering. Cowboy builders use ordinary sand/cement for repairs which never last. Indeed it is little different from the excellent mortar that the Chinese army of the time built the Great Wall of China - most of this mortar is as good today as when the Great Wall was built - that's quality in spades.
In Blaye les Mines I went to look at a house that was built in the 1960s - the crepi was as good as the day it was applied, in fact I couldn't see a single piece of that build that needed reparation - that's quality building. Old beautiful railway stations across Europe - stunning designs and quality construction. All across Europe there were excellent bricklayers/stonemasons and real carpenter/joiners - what happened since then - building companies which once had bosses that cared about what how they built to accountants whose sole interest was the bottom line.
In the UK in the 1970s these construction companies set out to destroy the unions - they succeeded, the result is that real tradesmen with few exceptions don't exist today and cheap East European labour now dominates. Your father said he found it difficult to find real tradesmen so that mentality exists all over Europe and not only in construction.
There was a programme I think on channel 8 showing 'cowboy' building projects across France - the problem is now Europe wide. So many don't realise who created the EEC - European Economic Community, now the EU - European Union - the European Iron and Coal Federation - an organisation of Big Business. It was created to facilitate the influence and profits of Big Business - it's founding tenet was and is - the free movement of capital and labour and who does this benefit - that's right, Big Business and Big Business only. In Brussels there are over 30,000 parasites known as lobbyists, they get direct access to all MEPs but ordinary European citizens can whistle for access but it is they who pay their salaries, it's exactly the same in the USA.
So now we have deskilled labour across so many industries and especially in construction. In Italy the various mafias control construction with the help of corrupt politicians.
If the EU was for real then it would mandate effective quality control on all construction across all EU countries and set standards that all EU countries would have to meet - it never will.
Energy production - yes water turbines are the most efficient but you must know that in France you have to get permission to use one, even though the all the water is passed through the turbine, it is not 'consumed', but you need rivers for turbines. In the 1980s I spent most summers cycle camping touring across France and I was amazed that irrigation was carried out by day when a lot of that water immediately evaporated in the heat - that it is still so today - why is this irrigation not carried out by night.
The fact is that a lot of old properties right across Europe should be deconstructed. A lot of people from the UK but especially the English buy these old French stone properties because they are 'very attractive' - are they buying a painting or somewhere to live?. Then they find out that they swelter in summer and freeze in winter. Granite was freely available in Bretagne and in Scotland and Pay de Galle but it is a terrible material to build a house with - solution - knock them down and build using far better materials. In Scotland the climate is going to change dramatically - the Gulf Steam Drift is going to disappear and the climate will become like that of Scandinavia - hot summers and very cold winters but the idiots are still building the same rubbish - vested interests again.
It will never happen but the EU could stipulate that all housing had to be built using certain materials and must include air change systems/ wet and dry larders/ no 'picture windows' that cannot be shielded from the sun and that all windows should have internal lightweight insulating shutters to re-instate the U value of the walls/ that all ground floors should be built off the ground and proper insulation applied to the floors and all with an air change system - it will never happen - vested interests.
If you are going to use temperature control by insulating external walls then you don't use any materials that are good heat transfer or suffer from insect or mould - that rules out steel of any kind or wood. Glass fibre or rock wool degenerates over time - next door to me there was land and an old house up for sale. We enjoy where we live and have very good neighbours so it could have been of interest to me. I was offered first opportunity. I went to look at the old small house. My experience told me straightaway that the old house was a no-no but I went into combles/attic and saw the state of the rock wool insulation from about 20 years ago it was a complete mess but still this stuff is being used today, any glass fibre insulation will attract moisture but it is still being used today. People do not realise that building Regs. are the absolute minimum not the optimum.
Now here's a thing that I guarantee will never happen - in your last year at senior school, teenagers could be clued up about finance - how not to get ripped off by insurance salesmen and women ( I know a German female doctor who thought she would get honest advice form another woman LOL, I showed her how to get back her premiums from a crap pension plan) how to invest money, what kind of mortgage to get and how to pay it off ASAP and thereby save a fortune. To not become a consumer junkie, though probably too late by that age, the indoctrination being too deep and especially how to evaluate property - not to ever buy a river or on a flood plain, how it should be built and with what, Like I say howls of protest from vested interests and stopped by their bought and paid for politicians.
Will people ever learn, I'm thinking about California, Oz, - will people still buy flimsy wooden crap in high fire risk areas - yes or buy properties built at ground level guaranteed to flood - yes unfortunately they will. In the UK this summer on the TV I remember seeing a young man crying because he had bought a house by a river after saving for years - I guarantee it was cheap, sorry no sympathy at all.
On another thread I'm asking for advice on what I need to digitize my collection of LPs and CD - BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW, so I am asking questions. I could be stupid and refuse to accept that I do not know. Sadly many refuse to accept that they need to admit that they do not know and so make very bad buys - you pays your money and make your choice.
Back to the topic of the thread - there is a very good site run by a husband and wife called - rvblogger.com and they did an interview with the CEO of a rv company called Alliance. It featured the Alliance RV Avenue 30 RLS. This rv actually addresses a lot of the points I raised - worth checking out. They also did interviews at a site in Virginia with a meet of owners of small glass fibre bodied trailers. These have a reputation for not leaking and hold their value very well, definitely worth checking out.
I'll take your last point first - I don't think the French people are idiots at all, if i did I wouldn't be living in France.
The ordinary French were lied to just like everywhere. I well remember a big fat turd who was the CEO of the then UK State run electricity council lying about how nuclear generated electricity was going to be so cheap they could almost give it away. Around Sellafield in northern England there are so many cases of all types of cancer. The accidents are kept undercover. To cap it all we have taken nuclear waste from other countries for profit today but they don't know where to store it nd the pile keeps growing.
Ironically in the middle ages they built better homes across Europe than they do today. They used oak framed structures and 'daub and wattle' infill (I don't know how to translate this into French, sorry). Many of those house are still standing today. The daub and wattle was a very good form of insulation.
I lived on the south coast of England and from the Georgian period (1800) onward in Brighton and Hove they built homes for the rich in big squares. In the centre of what were going to be parks when the buildings were completed they made the composite render and 'lime mortar'. In about 94 an exhibition was set up actually making theboth the render and lime mortar. It was fascinating and every day it was packed with spectators. What they didn't show or explain was that when they ran out of bricks they sent boys across toe seafront road to collect flints to make up the difference.
Any builder who ever worked on these Georgian/Victorian built squares knows very well how often you had to stop fixing a gas boiler to the wall to remove these sometimes massive flints and remake with bricks and then plaster finish before you could fix the boiler or other things to these walls. What was the only thing that stopped these buildings from literally falling down - 'compo' (composition render).
Compo = sand/cement/small aggregate. When properly made and applied is amazingly long lasting and doesn't suffer hardly at all from weathering. Cowboy builders use ordinary sand/cement for repairs which never last. Indeed it is little different from the excellent mortar that the Chinese army of the time built the Great Wall of China - most of this mortar is as good today as when the Great Wall was built - that's quality in spades.
In Blaye les Mines I went to look at a house that was built in the 1960s - the crepi was as good as the day it was applied, in fact I couldn't see a single piece of that build that needed reparation - that's quality building. Old beautiful railway stations across Europe - stunning designs and quality construction. All across Europe there were excellent bricklayers/stonemasons and real carpenter/joiners - what happened since then - building companies which once had bosses that cared about what how they built to accountants whose sole interest was the bottom line.
In the UK in the 1970s these construction companies set out to destroy the unions - they succeeded, the result is that real tradesmen with few exceptions don't exist today and cheap East European labour now dominates. Your father said he found it difficult to find real tradesmen so that mentality exists all over Europe and not only in construction.
There was a programme I think on channel 8 showing 'cowboy' building projects across France - the problem is now Europe wide. So many don't realise who created the EEC - European Economic Community, now the EU - European Union - the European Iron and Coal Federation - an organisation of Big Business. It was created to facilitate the influence and profits of Big Business - it's founding tenet was and is - the free movement of capital and labour and who does this benefit - that's right, Big Business and Big Business only. In Brussels there are over 30,000 parasites known as lobbyists, they get direct access to all MEPs but ordinary European citizens can whistle for access but it is they who pay their salaries, it's exactly the same in the USA.
So now we have deskilled labour across so many industries and especially in construction. In Italy the various mafias control construction with the help of corrupt politicians.
If the EU was for real then it would mandate effective quality control on all construction across all EU countries and set standards that all EU countries would have to meet - it never will.
Energy production - yes water turbines are the most efficient but you must know that in France you have to get permission to use one, even though the all the water is passed through the turbine, it is not 'consumed', but you need rivers for turbines. In the 1980s I spent most summers cycle camping touring across France and I was amazed that irrigation was carried out by day when a lot of that water immediately evaporated in the heat - that it is still so today - why is this irrigation not carried out by night.
The fact is that a lot of old properties right across Europe should be deconstructed. A lot of people from the UK but especially the English buy these old French stone properties because they are 'very attractive' - are they buying a painting or somewhere to live?. Then they find out that they swelter in summer and freeze in winter. Granite was freely available in Bretagne and in Scotland and Pay de Galle but it is a terrible material to build a house with - solution - knock them down and build using far better materials. In Scotland the climate is going to change dramatically - the Gulf Steam Drift is going to disappear and the climate will become like that of Scandinavia - hot summers and very cold winters but the idiots are still building the same rubbish - vested interests again.
It will never happen but the EU could stipulate that all housing had to be built using certain materials and must include air change systems/ wet and dry larders/ no 'picture windows' that cannot be shielded from the sun and that all windows should have internal lightweight insulating shutters to re-instate the U value of the walls/ that all ground floors should be built off the ground and proper insulation applied to the floors and all with an air change system - it will never happen - vested interests.
If you are going to use temperature control by insulating external walls then you don't use any materials that are good heat transfer or suffer from insect or mould - that rules out steel of any kind or wood. Glass fibre or rock wool degenerates over time - next door to me there was land and an old house up for sale. We enjoy where we live and have very good neighbours so it could have been of interest to me. I was offered first opportunity. I went to look at the old small house. My experience told me straightaway that the old house was a no-no but I went into combles/attic and saw the state of the rock wool insulation from about 20 years ago it was a complete mess but still this stuff is being used today, any glass fibre insulation will attract moisture but it is still being used today. People do not realise that building Regs. are the absolute minimum not the optimum.
Now here's a thing that I guarantee will never happen - in your last year at senior school, teenagers could be clued up about finance - how not to get ripped off by insurance salesmen and women ( I know a German female doctor who thought she would get honest advice form another woman LOL, I showed her how to get back her premiums from a crap pension plan) how to invest money, what kind of mortgage to get and how to pay it off ASAP and thereby save a fortune. To not become a consumer junkie, though probably too late by that age, the indoctrination being too deep and especially how to evaluate property - not to ever buy a river or on a flood plain, how it should be built and with what, Like I say howls of protest from vested interests and stopped by their bought and paid for politicians.
Will people ever learn, I'm thinking about California, Oz, - will people still buy flimsy wooden crap in high fire risk areas - yes or buy properties built at ground level guaranteed to flood - yes unfortunately they will. In the UK this summer on the TV I remember seeing a young man crying because he had bought a house by a river after saving for years - I guarantee it was cheap, sorry no sympathy at all.
On another thread I'm asking for advice on what I need to digitize my collection of LPs and CD - BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW, so I am asking questions. I could be stupid and refuse to accept that I do not know. Sadly many refuse to accept that they need to admit that they do not know and so make very bad buys - you pays your money and make your choice.
Back to the topic of the thread - there is a very good site run by a husband and wife called - rvblogger.com and they did an interview with the CEO of a rv company called Alliance. It featured the Alliance RV Avenue 30 RLS. This rv actually addresses a lot of the points I raised - worth checking out. They also did interviews at a site in Virginia with a meet of owners of small glass fibre bodied trailers. These have a reputation for not leaking and hold their value very well, definitely worth checking out.