DVI out on a DVD Player

Folks:

Are there any DVD players that have a DVI OUT on them? I've been asking around and haven't been able to find any anywhere.

The DVI is a direct digital out for flat panel / LCD monitors, but my video projector has a DVI in. Presently, the only way to use that is to go from my PC (DVI out) to DVI in.

Note: I know there are simple DVI to Analog RBG ('component video') adapaters, but I'd prefer to stay digital to digital. (this I'm posting this in the 'digital' forum <G>).

Thanks,
 
I believe any unencrypted digital video out is a violation of DVD consortium rules, so it is unlikely that you will find a stock player with DVI out. I have heard of people paying for SDI-out upgrades, though, so there may be something like that out there for DVI.

Or, you could shell out another ~$400 for an SDI PCI board, $100 or so for a good graphics card, and make a really nice computer-based deinterlacer.
 
At this time, there are no stand-alone DVD players with DVI output, and it is unlikely that you will see very many in the near future.

The reason is mostly cost-related. The DVD player market is highly competetive, and manufacturers will not be willing to add a feature that will see little to no use with a consumer product unless it has some significant marketing potential (eg progressive scan). Presently, the DVI interface is used almost exclusively for computer monitors, and given how easy and inexpensive it is to add a DVD drive to a computer, i rather doubt that anyone will consider it worthwhile to add such an interface to a DVD player. A secondary issue of concern of course is copy protection, shich is definitely a DVD consortium regulation (even analog interfaces are supposed to apply macrovision for copy protected material)... although the DVI interface does have an encryption standard. These are the same reasons you will very rarely see even an analog RGB computer-style interface on standalone DVD players. If there's one place where you might find what you're looking for, it'll be the asian market. This is the only place I've heard of dvd players being sold with analog rgb outputs, save perhaps for a few very rare north american models.

I can tell you that I haven't heard about any plans from DVD chipset makers to introduce DVI output support, except for PC applications. So, don't hold your breath. I think it far more likely that we'll see firewire becoming the standard digital video interface for consumer electronics. Whichever way it goes, affordable standalone players will probably not appear until television sets which support the digital interface start showing up in numbers anyway.

If you really want that DVI interface for your projector, you'll have to tap into a CCIR-656 data bus inside a commerical player (but these are not in RGB, rather YCrCb). At least you could pass the digital video data to your own circuitry. Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with the DVI interface beyond a basic level of understanding, so I can't give you much advice on handling the colour space conversion and interfacing to DVI. It'd be one heck of a lot of work anyway...

I think your best bet is to either stick with your PC (generally poor deinterlacing performance), or buy a decent progressive scan DVD player and use the component analog outputs. Samsung is about to put it's new progressive scan players on the market, which will contain my company's new ZiVA-5 chip... it does an excellent job of deinterlacing for DVDs with encoding problems (you'd be surprised how many titles aren't properly authored), and equals or exceeds the performance of the much-touted Sage/Faroudja FLI2200 deinterlacer for the vast majority of DVD material.

I think the high performance of the newest generation deinterlacers outweighs the disadvantage of one more AD/DA cycle... most modern HD and progressive scan TVs do an AD/DA conversion cycle of their own anyway.

Anyhow, if you have any questions i might be able answer for you, just let me know...
 
hifiZen:
These are the same reasons you will very rarely see even an analog RGB computer-style interface on standalone DVD players.

I'm a bit surprised you say this, of the 10 players I looked at, at Best Buy, I'd say 6 of them had analog RGB out.

I'm also trying to find a Surround Sound decoder that doesn't have a receiver built in, thinking maybe I'd just pass SPDIF out of a PC to a receiver, but it appears nowdays everything is horribly integrated. (there was another thread on this).

CF: Thanks - guess that's Lug the PC out in the short term <G>
 
of the 10 players I looked at, at Best Buy, I'd say 6 of them had analog RGB out.

Really? Are you sure these were the computer monitor style DIN-15 connectors for RGB, or are you thinking of component video, which is YCrCb (eg. three RCA connectors - often misleadingly coloured red green and blue)?

If the former, I'd be interested in what make and model they were.
 

halcyon

Member
2002-04-08 12:48 pm
RGB in Europe, Y/Cb/Cr component in US

RGB-signal is the most commonly used video output signal in Europe with DVD players. It is almost always piped out through the SCART (Euro) connector.

US players almost always output Y/Cb/Cr component through 3xRCA connectors.

hifiZen

I believe DVI-D output for DVD players has an encryption standard called Panel Link / HDCP.

Also, Tag McLaren has come out with a progressive DVI-output board for their DVD-32R and DVD-32FLR standalone dvd players.

It outputs PAL and NTSC progressive through DVI.

Yes, they are very expensive: up to €8000 euros.

Also, where do you get the inside information that LSI / C-Cube's Ziva-5 has better de-interlacing than Genesis (Sage Faroudja) FLI2200?

Also, Ziva-5 being an older design dating back to 2000 it has has a chroma upsampling error as it is an integrated solution (including an mpeg decompressor) from the time before this problem was known.

As for DVI output benefits being overshadowed by good AD/DA conversion for RGB/Component outputs... I dare you to try a Ravisent 4.0 decoding engine using ATI Radeon 10-bit video card straight out DVI-D output into a DVI-D input of a digital projector with 1:1 pixel mapping.

You'll be amazed as to where the motion dither, black level noise and other artifacts disappeared.

DVI in conjunction with digital projectors is a revelation.


best regards,
Halcyon
 
Video input\scaling\de-interlacing chips from Genesis\ADI\Philips already have DVI inputs. Chip sets to support HD televisions with DVI are forthcoming. This will reduce the adder for DVI input to a TV to a bare minimum and given that the HD TV market is highly differentiated, this could be a big selling point for early adopters both at the TV and DVD side. That should drive the market.
 
alvaius:

you make a good point, and i hope you're right. Unfortunately, the early adopters aren't likely going to be on the budget-end. The DVI interface will probably start out slowly in the high-end units and work it's way down as DVI becomes more widespread. As well, firewire's on the horizon, and this will compete to a certain extent.

halcyon:

...ah yes, SCART. Although the SCART signals are RGB, they not directly compatible with computer monitors. Please pardon the omission in my previous post - i was referring specifically to VESA RGB analog outputs.

Anyway, I happen to be the hardware applications engineer at LSI for the ZiVA products. The ZiVA-5 isn't actually such an old chip. While it was delayed in coming to market, the chip doesn't date back quite that far. The very first ZiVA-5 products are just about to hit the store shelves now (expect to see them in May). While early samples of the ZiVA-5 did exhibit the chroma upsampling bug (as do most DVD decoder chips still being sold at the time of this post), we have already applied a fix. In fact, ZiVA-4.1 products currently in production are starting to incorporate the chroma upsampling fix as well.

I have recently done extensive testing of progressive-scan performance with the ZiVA-5 and with competitor's products. Progressive-scan deinterlacing is a rather difficult and complex problem, and current deinterlacers on the market are all what i would consider first(maybe second)-generation products - accordingly they all have their fair share of issues. This most certainly includes computers, which unfortunately do not have much in the way of dedicated video deinterlacing hardware available. While you may consider my opinion biased, i have personally been involved in the testing of a good many DVD players, and I can tell you without hesitation that the ZiVA-5 is a superb performer in the de-interlacing arena. In theory, the Sage/Faroudja chip uses a more sophisticated solution, but in practice the algorithms are imperfect and introduce artifacts of their own. As well, the great benefit of an integrated solution like the ZiVA-5 is that it has full access to all of the information in the DVD bitstream, whereas a separate-chip deinterlacer like the FLI-2200 gets nothing but the raw sample values. This makes all the difference when playing discs with bad edits and funny authoring problems. C-Cube / LSI, being a long-time leader in digital video has developed many advanced algorithms, and has conducted extensive subjective testing to ensure that the ZiVA-5 produces high quality subjective results. The ZiVA-5 can sucessfully detect and handle all of these problems with aplomb, while separate chip de-interlacers will get tripped-up for a dozen or more frames before figuring out what's happening and responding. However, I won't lie... the ZiVA-5 is our first-generation progressive-scan product, and there is a small percentage of DVD content where other deinterlacers can do a better job. Fortunately for us, this material is quite rare and doesn't show up in anything important (like during movie playback), but only in oddball cases and of course on our competitor's so-called "test" discs (actually breaker discs, artificial video content designed to ruthlessly expose defects in a competitor's products). In most cases, test discs do not represent real content, and tend to overemphasize certain aspects of video performance while ignoring others. At LSI, we use our own internal test material, which is designed to allow a balanced evaluation of all areas of playback performance.

I am really excited about our next generation chips, which are poised to leapfrog right past the competition into third-generation deinterlacing and MCTF (motion-compensated temporal filtering). The DoMiNo architecture has been in serious R&D for some time now, and is just starting to emerge into the hands of our customers. I have seen the internal demos, and am very impressed, especially with the HD performance. I can't wait to start working with this product line in the near future. Sage may be resting on it's laurels for now, but LSI will be the first to market with true motion-compensated de-interlacing.

I'll be one happy guy the day that i get a DoMiNo equipped DVD-R / time-shifting box at home with a DVI interface to a DLP projector! ;)
 
hifiZen said:
Really? Are you sure these were the computer monitor style DIN-15 connectors for RGB, or are you thinking of component video, which is YCrCb (eg. three RCA connectors - often misleadingly coloured red green and blue)?

Hmm .. we'll, it might be three RCA, I would have sworn one of them was five though, but it wasn't that easy to look at the back so it oculd have been YCrCb. I was more focusing on the fact that it wasn't SVideo at the time.

I will double check. If they were all YCrCb, this means that I will DEFINITLY continue to use my PC.
 

Electro

Member
2002-04-12 4:41 am
Some of you said outputting SPDIF from the sound card. This is alright but it only outputs to two channels. However Creative Labs doesn't say in their paper manuals that you can output up to 6 channels (5 channels and a subwoofer channel) from one SPDIF on the LIVE! 5.1 or Audigy. The help files located on the installation CD says this and it even has a drawing of a five connector 1/8 inch headphone connector. Trying to find that special connector is going to be hard because it is a rare connector.

ATI's Radeon VE to Radeon 8500 DV has DVI connectors. Also NVidia graphics cards are now including them. One disadvantage of using video cards with built in DVD decoding is that they limit the resolution output of 800 X 600. This is o.k for projectors but not good for producing HDTV quality. I suggest looking for DVD decoding cards that have built-in DVI output or is compatible for your favorite video card manufacture that can overlay the DVD movie. Then your video card processes the video to DVI.
 
I have the ATI DV 8500, and so far it doesn't limit output to 800x600 when doing DVD decode. I was using the standard DVD player from ATI but I like the PowerDVD software a little better. I think there's better out there.

My projector is 1300 (something) however, and that's not a common desktop resolution, so I think I need to get a driver file for my 'monitor' to match the display output. Right now, I'm just driving it at 1600x1200 and letting the projector do the downsampling (it's built in).

Finding DVI cables has turned out to be a chore as well.

I just have the SB Live! right now, not the 5.1 variety. I might upgrade.

On the subject of component video out, I visited two or three electronics stores in the area and they were in fact all just 3 jacks, so it's not "true" rgb. I haven't been back to Best Buy though, they had a much better selection. Ken Crane's is down the road, but I haven't stopped by there yet either.

== John ==
 

Electro

Member
2002-04-12 4:41 am
What I mean when it limits the resolution output to 800 X 600 is that it will only decode up to that resolution. Any higher resolution it starts to pixelate from blowing the picture up.

I found a site that can modify or tweak a Creativelabs Soundblaster LIVE! to LIVE! 5.1. The site is shown below.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/livetolive51/

Buying a true LIVE! 5.1 sound card will give you less errors and easier hook up.

In my last post the digital output on LIVE! 5.1 sound cards can output 6 digital signals (5.1 channels) instead of two digital signals on normal DVD players.


I do have Cyberlink's PowerDVD. Sound quality is very nice. Though video quality is also nice but my video card (Radeon) does improve the quality some what. I have to disable hardware decoding in PowerDVD because it freezes my computer. However, this might be the copyright laws for computers coming into play.

I went to Sourceforge and found a group that has written code to downscale or deinterlaced the video.

http://www.dscaler.org/

It looks like dscaler is much better than WinDVD. Most TV tuner companies are using the code from dscaler.


Powerstrip can help you pick any resolution. You can download it at any software downloading sites.
 
Thanks Electro ... very interesting article.

I woulder if it would be possible to patch the LiveWare! installation sources to install the right software instead of desoldering the chip?

The Live 5.1! probably isn't too expensive now anyway.

I'm going to have an 'extra' Athlon 1Ghz motherboard (A7V) soon, long story - I'm almost tempted to make a 'pc' DVD player. If I can get the 3 SPDIF outputs to an external SPDIF (Stereo) to analog converter, I could go with 6 DIY amps outboard and get

1) much superior video
2) Superior sound
 

Electro

Member
2002-04-12 4:41 am
Converting from digital to analog does decrease the sound quality because of DACs and silicon limits. I did look into an amplifier that is true digital amplification and it doesn't clip or distort. The amplifier class that I looked into for some time is Class-J. It doesn't need a DAC so all it needs is a digital input. Class-J can accept any bit rate. Class-J amplifiers are hard to find because not many companies are using it or don't know if they exist. The company that invented Class-J amplifiers is Jam Tech.

Jam Tech - http://www.jam-tech.com


Don't forget to buy a UPS power supply. I'm sure that the AC lines damaged your previous ASUS motherboard. When you get everything for your computer, get some low noise fans and a huge flower heatsink from Zalman or a Zalman provider. Use dynamat only around the fans. Remember dynamat converts vibrations into heat.

Zalman - http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/intro.htm
 
Electro:

Power line Surges really don't harm computers as much as some people think, if they did, every time your CD drive started up you'd blow your motherboard. I've been in a situation in the military where the engineers had a generator revv'd way too high (>200v) and the PC's survived fine.

And I actually do have a UPS on the thing.

In my case, what blew the motherboard or CPU was a defective USB connector. My Dog went behind the couch and I jumped up (he likes to mark his territory sometimes) to grab him, and yanked the mouse out of the USB connector. It broke out the little black (white) piece of plastic. I then plugged the mouse back in (I inspected the mouse and it looked fine) and the metal contacts shorted out against the metal outter jacket. I actually saw a small blue spark. Everything shut off and it won't reboot - there's a LED on the motherboard that shows good, but I don't even get 'beep codes' out of the thing now.


I don't really understand the concept of a digital amp. I mean, if you want to digitally amplify the number '10' just make it a '20'. :)To drive a speaker, you have to have an DAC somewhere, at least until we have digital speaker coils. I do, however, like the idea of a power amp that has a digital input and high power output :) (which is of course what you are talking about!)
 

Electro

Member
2002-04-12 4:41 am
Miltary equipment are more heavy duty. When a circuit calls for a 0.25 watt 5% tolerance resistor, the designer puts in a 2 watt 1% tolerance resistor.


Connecting a mouse or a keyboard to the USB is not very good. First you are not able to use DOS or LINUX. Second, USB puts out a voltage of 12 volts and several hundred or thousands of milliamps. Motherboards limits current to 500 milliamps. Using a PS/2 mouse or keyboard the voltage is a lot smaller. USB should be used for scanners, digital cameras, or any device that needs a wide data bandwidth.

Please look through Jam Tech's site.