I got this idea because teflon insulated wire is so @!&%# expensive. Uninsulated silver wire can be bourght relatively cheap from jewlery shops. When applying "loose" teflon tubing the chord is still exposed to the air causing it to tarnish.
So, how do I solve this? 😕
The idea is to replace the air in the tube with something else and then seal off the ends using epoxy or similar. I have found that pure oxygene is exelent for the job and easy available.
OXYGEN (68° F ) 1.000494 dieletric constant.
Other candidates might be:
Acetylene
Argon
Air (cleanned)
Neon
Nitrgen
Oxygene wont attack the silver. It is the sulphur particles in the atmosphere that tarnishes the silver.
If you want to make absolutly shure the silver is clean before applying the tubing, have a look at this:
http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/HOMEEXPTS/TARNISH.html
This is just an idea and I would like to hear what some of you guys think of it.
So, how do I solve this? 😕
The idea is to replace the air in the tube with something else and then seal off the ends using epoxy or similar. I have found that pure oxygene is exelent for the job and easy available.
OXYGEN (68° F ) 1.000494 dieletric constant.
Other candidates might be:
Acetylene
Argon
Air (cleanned)
Neon
Nitrgen
Oxygene wont attack the silver. It is the sulphur particles in the atmosphere that tarnishes the silver.
If you want to make absolutly shure the silver is clean before applying the tubing, have a look at this:
http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/HOMEEXPTS/TARNISH.html
This is just an idea and I would like to hear what some of you guys think of it.
Attachments
I had a similar idea once upon a time, but did not follow through for several reasons. A few obervations:
--Sulfur is present in many plastics, and will outgas into your clean air as sulfur dioxide.
--Plastics are more permeable than you think, and sulfur can migrate through the plastic into the interior.
--The epoxy, being rigid, will not flex well. You'll need to arrange for a strain relief to keep from straining the seal mechanically.
--The epoxy will not necessarily seal well to the jacket and/or the silver itself. In particular, when I mix epoxy, I do so in a plastic container. After I'm done with the epoxy, I let it cure, then pop it out by flexing the plastic. I've been using the same piece of plastic for years and never had it stick.
--I'd recommend using an intert gas to fill the interior (neon, argon...nitrogen would probably be easiest and cheapest to obtain) as it would forestall the reaction problems the longest.
--If you crimp, step on, or heat the cable, the gas will build up pressure and may burst the seal.
That said, I wish you luck. I think the idea has merit, but it's going to be difficult to implement in the real world.
Grey
--Sulfur is present in many plastics, and will outgas into your clean air as sulfur dioxide.
--Plastics are more permeable than you think, and sulfur can migrate through the plastic into the interior.
--The epoxy, being rigid, will not flex well. You'll need to arrange for a strain relief to keep from straining the seal mechanically.
--The epoxy will not necessarily seal well to the jacket and/or the silver itself. In particular, when I mix epoxy, I do so in a plastic container. After I'm done with the epoxy, I let it cure, then pop it out by flexing the plastic. I've been using the same piece of plastic for years and never had it stick.
--I'd recommend using an intert gas to fill the interior (neon, argon...nitrogen would probably be easiest and cheapest to obtain) as it would forestall the reaction problems the longest.
--If you crimp, step on, or heat the cable, the gas will build up pressure and may burst the seal.
That said, I wish you luck. I think the idea has merit, but it's going to be difficult to implement in the real world.
Grey
Drawn teflon is porous so it will leak. Better coat the wire first with some type of lacker. Polyurethane will do. Other possiblility is a gold flash over it. This layer does not have to be very thick.
What you want to do is what is (was) used on very high power coax cables. They fill the gap between inner and outer conductor with dried nitrogen. If I remember the sales brochures well, these cables had special connectors with a gas connection, a nitrogen separator to get it out of the air and a drier. Space needed: about a fridge. So the idea is workable, but will be difficult because of the small dimensions of the wires.
What you want to do is what is (was) used on very high power coax cables. They fill the gap between inner and outer conductor with dried nitrogen. If I remember the sales brochures well, these cables had special connectors with a gas connection, a nitrogen separator to get it out of the air and a drier. Space needed: about a fridge. So the idea is workable, but will be difficult because of the small dimensions of the wires.
GRollins said:
I hoped the outgasing/permeable problem would be about the same as regular wire, asuming the seal is tight. Maby there are problems I didn't foresee? Maybe using heatshrink (before sealing the ends) on the teflon tubing would help this? About the epoxy, I have a two component glue called "araldit". It takes 20 hours to cure, but is flexible enough (like soft plastic, but not as much as rubber).
I supose you are right about using inert gas, like nitrogene.
I think I will make a "prototype" for the speakers I am currently building. If the consept fails I will know within a few months when the wire tarnishes. I will also make a bunch of references that I can "open" over time and compare to freshly polished silver.
I live at a dorm room, so I guess any type of industrial type of installations are out of the question. 😀Havoc said:
What is the attraction of silver as a conductor? The only advantage that I can think of is lower losses when transfering power. Is there an other advantage that I'm unaware of?
I suspect that I'm going to feel like a fool after this, but I got used to that long ago.
Always willing to learn, regards WALKER
I suspect that I'm going to feel like a fool after this, but I got used to that long ago.
Always willing to learn, regards WALKER
walker said:
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Because good silver cables sound better. There are many attempts to explain why, mostly speculative. Worth looking at kimber.com site.
I guess the only thing is the lower resistance, so something about skin effect will crop up, and this is the reason the sulfide is so bad. Rest will be psycho-acoustics.
There is probably more to gain from a different geometry than silver.
There is probably more to gain from a different geometry than silver.
Mmmmmm...gas tight connections for silver wire eh?
Like many, I've looked at this problem on more than one occasion. Amongst those I've discussed this issue with, (on a variety of newsgroups), opinion seems to be that if anything, the sulphides actually improve rather than degrade the sound of silver cables.
So, if you are after teflon insulated, solid core silver interconnects on the cheap, sleeve your solid core silver with deliberately outsized teflon insulation, don't worry about airtight connections to prevent the formation of a sulphide layer, sit back and enjoy your semi-air dielectric solid core silver interconnects!
Like many, I've looked at this problem on more than one occasion. Amongst those I've discussed this issue with, (on a variety of newsgroups), opinion seems to be that if anything, the sulphides actually improve rather than degrade the sound of silver cables.
So, if you are after teflon insulated, solid core silver interconnects on the cheap, sleeve your solid core silver with deliberately outsized teflon insulation, don't worry about airtight connections to prevent the formation of a sulphide layer, sit back and enjoy your semi-air dielectric solid core silver interconnects!
Hmmmm, I know that I'm probably in the minority here buuut I've yet to hear a system so good that anything other than descent copper speaker leads are advantageous. I just love the look on the salesman’s face when he tries to guess which leads I've just plugged in, the $500 super leads he's been trying to sell me or the $10 ones. It has been my experience that he can pick it correctly about fifty percent of the time.
This doesn't mean the $500 ones don't look great.
IMHO money is usually far better spent on recordings or room acoustics than speaker leads.
Regards WALKER
Mind you, if I'm right 50% of the time I tend to think I'm doing well.
This doesn't mean the $500 ones don't look great.
IMHO money is usually far better spent on recordings or room acoustics than speaker leads.
Regards WALKER
Mind you, if I'm right 50% of the time I tend to think I'm doing well.
Hi Thomas,
I have made some silver interconnects a few years ago using the purest silver I could get (from a jewlery shop). For the first I used two silver wires in parallel with an extra shield connected on one side. I isolated them with teflon tape normally used to make heating fittings watertight😎
I also made some with a woven structure like Kimber PBJ, also with each thread isolated with teflon tape.
Although the cables didn´t sound bad they didn´t sound good enough to justify the cost/work. A relatively cheap PBJ was better.
I think one problem is the quality of the silver that isn´t normally used to make interconnects but for jewels. (I even had the jewlery put it in there oven to make it soft again).
william
I have made some silver interconnects a few years ago using the purest silver I could get (from a jewlery shop). For the first I used two silver wires in parallel with an extra shield connected on one side. I isolated them with teflon tape normally used to make heating fittings watertight😎
I also made some with a woven structure like Kimber PBJ, also with each thread isolated with teflon tape.
Although the cables didn´t sound bad they didn´t sound good enough to justify the cost/work. A relatively cheap PBJ was better.
I think one problem is the quality of the silver that isn´t normally used to make interconnects but for jewels. (I even had the jewlery put it in there oven to make it soft again).
william
I found this site for silver wire with teflon insulation a while back for what it is worth,
http://members.tripod.com/puresilversound/prod04.htm
http://members.tripod.com/puresilversound/prod04.htm
wuffwaff said:
Hi william, thank you for your interest in this subject!
This is a problem I am aware off and I have done some research on this. I found long grain wire is recomended.
When metal is hammered, stretched or rolled the grain structure gets smaller, thus more and smaller grains. The metal will get stronger physicaly, but the grain structure will be distorted. When heated the grain structure will return to 'normal' large grain and get soft again. So, heating the wire is probably a very good idea.
For what I can tell, the quality of wire is more important when using silver rather then copper.
Thomas said:
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CRYOGENIC TREATMENT
This is available in UK and sounds fine.
fmak said:
😕 Since room temperature is allready well below silver melting point, how is freezing it further going to help on anything???
If you can show me some facts I'd be interested. If this, on the other hand, is one of those religious beliefs please don't bother.
I experimented with pure silver 1mm interconnects and with teflon tape running side by side or in heat shrink tubing. I think they give my 500$ audioquest python very serious competition in terms of clarity and resolution. However there is a little brightness at the upper midrange and a hint of harshness but this is very recording dependent and I am not sure if it is the cable or it just highlights certain harsh sounding recordings which is a common problem with a lot of digital recordings. I also tried it as a digital interconnect and there seemed to be a quite obvious increase in dynamics although again the treble sometimes could be a bit harsh. But in many respects it sounded better than my 150$ nordost digital i/c. I am wondering if the 1mm might be too thick and will try thinner versions in other configurations.
However I think it is well worth the money and effort.
By the way on this cryogenic process it reminded me of a "tweak" that sounds unbelievable but works well.
You put your cd's in the freezer overnight and the next day they sound much better!
I thought too that it was impossible but I tested more than once with identical cd copies and it was immediately obvious on an A/B test , more dynamics, more space in the music!
Plus it's free and involves minimal hassle.
If anybody tries it give me some feedback so I don't feel I need a straitjacket!
However I think it is well worth the money and effort.
By the way on this cryogenic process it reminded me of a "tweak" that sounds unbelievable but works well.
You put your cd's in the freezer overnight and the next day they sound much better!
I thought too that it was impossible but I tested more than once with identical cd copies and it was immediately obvious on an A/B test , more dynamics, more space in the music!
Plus it's free and involves minimal hassle.
If anybody tries it give me some feedback so I don't feel I need a straitjacket!
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