I purchased DATS 3 because I have to measure the parasitic components of capacitors and other components.
I noticed that the ESR measurement of the capacitors is always around high values and always similar to the test frequency of 120Hz (to give an example of frequency).
I would like to point out that I am measuring capacitors like Mundorf Supreme! and all of the same value!
I would like to share my experience with you, have you also encountered this problem with the same type of capacitors as mine?
Is there a truly reliable instrument that gives certain and repeatable values?
In fact, if I measure a capacitor 3 times it always gives me very little different values but all the measured parameters are different.
I wonder, is the much-vaunted DATS really reliable and with repeatable results?
As for the capacitors, I don't think so.
I noticed that the ESR measurement of the capacitors is always around high values and always similar to the test frequency of 120Hz (to give an example of frequency).
I would like to point out that I am measuring capacitors like Mundorf Supreme! and all of the same value!
I would like to share my experience with you, have you also encountered this problem with the same type of capacitors as mine?
Is there a truly reliable instrument that gives certain and repeatable values?
In fact, if I measure a capacitor 3 times it always gives me very little different values but all the measured parameters are different.
I wonder, is the much-vaunted DATS really reliable and with repeatable results?
As for the capacitors, I don't think so.
If you simply break it down DATS is an external soundcardchip with usb and probes. The V3 got an internal resistor for calibration reasons. In the end it's more meant for validation than precise measurement.
If you need the real ESR you need a Wheatstone measurement bridge from Peak or Hameg or whatever suits your pocketmoney. For audio application especially crossover parts the dats works super easy and is a no-brainer.
If you expect results comparable to lab equipment you need to create a lab environment with measurements under lab conditions.
Else do it as taught ongoing electricians - repeat the same measurement of a component and take the mean value 😏
If you need the real ESR you need a Wheatstone measurement bridge from Peak or Hameg or whatever suits your pocketmoney. For audio application especially crossover parts the dats works super easy and is a no-brainer.
If you expect results comparable to lab equipment you need to create a lab environment with measurements under lab conditions.
Else do it as taught ongoing electricians - repeat the same measurement of a component and take the mean value 😏
may a have more info on this ?
I'm searching at the right cost an instrument that measure ESR of capacitors with reliability.
Does DATS do this in proper manner ?
thank you
Most of the shops I know are German based so best would be to search for LCR meter - simple ones are around 35-50$ and dedicated equipment only for inductance, caps and resistance some even for diodes. Those won't give you the ESR in a proper way. I assume something like the PeakTech 2170 – LCR-Meter does the trick and is a dedicated tool only for this task. I suspect to get precise measurements from this one.
Dats is a tool that is measuring the voltage behaviour on the input and compares it to the output on a time basis - like an oscilloscope.
Based on the information it calculates the results which may vary.
The tolerance need to be in a narrow band or else two things happened:
1) the calibration especially with the probes is off and needs to be redone
2) the object changes drastically and is more on the broken than the reliable side and should be replaced
If not already done perform the calibration again to ensure the DATS ain't rolling the dice due to wrong reference data.
Get a brand new cap of any type and do the measurements, if the tolerance is just in the smaller digits, forget about it.
I would be interested in the values you get out of DATS from a cap to get a feeling what we are talking about.
Dats is a tool that is measuring the voltage behaviour on the input and compares it to the output on a time basis - like an oscilloscope.
Based on the information it calculates the results which may vary.
The tolerance need to be in a narrow band or else two things happened:
1) the calibration especially with the probes is off and needs to be redone
2) the object changes drastically and is more on the broken than the reliable side and should be replaced
If not already done perform the calibration again to ensure the DATS ain't rolling the dice due to wrong reference data.
Get a brand new cap of any type and do the measurements, if the tolerance is just in the smaller digits, forget about it.
I would be interested in the values you get out of DATS from a cap to get a feeling what we are talking about.
how to calibrate DATS ?
after this probably i could write you more precise values, because i have never done the calibration
after this probably i could write you more precise values, because i have never done the calibration
It's just a guess but without the calibration the DATS is really far off from a reliable measurement tool 🤓
I hope I gave you the right hint and the situation improves immediately after the very quick and easy process.
If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask!
I hope I gave you the right hint and the situation improves immediately after the very quick and easy process.
If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask!
Hi,
after calibration the results are more stable, the doubt is why regarding the value of my tests (4.7uF) are the results identical even for significantly different brands, construction types and voltages?
after calibration the results are more stable, the doubt is why regarding the value of my tests (4.7uF) are the results identical even for significantly different brands, construction types and voltages?
The images are looking promising and gladly the situation is now as expected.
I also own a DATS and for the size/prize/usability I'm more than happy with it and up till yet it did the trick to get TSP and for matching components.
I prefer the term verification than precise absolute measurement but the values I got from it are closely comparable to the much more expensive CLIO system.
I found some info in my formular books that might help. The used frequencies are standardized as following:
120 Hz are used for electrolyte caps and for other cap types with C > 10uF
1 kHz and/or 10 kHz for small caps 1 nF ≤ C ≤ 10 µF
I would simply go with the ESR of 1kHz because this is the more interesting frequency area if we are talking about the mid-/highrange crossover point.
The 10kHz can be interesting if you have an application for a super tweeter but usually the ESR values are close between 1 & 10kHz and are better than the tolerances of the speaker in the end 😉
There are resistance losses that are due to frequency, temperature and a part is surely a time related.
If you still hesitating with the accuracy of the measurements than as mentioned before redo the measurement a couple of times with everything untouched and note the values in a table.
There will be variations but they should be minor.
Another thing might be is ageing of the surfaces - means it can improve the situation to use some sandpaper on the first 1-2cm of the cap leads.
More importantto do on coils due to the used varnish but it can be a slight improvement and is a simple method 🙂
Happy experimenting 🤓
I also own a DATS and for the size/prize/usability I'm more than happy with it and up till yet it did the trick to get TSP and for matching components.
I prefer the term verification than precise absolute measurement but the values I got from it are closely comparable to the much more expensive CLIO system.
I found some info in my formular books that might help. The used frequencies are standardized as following:
120 Hz are used for electrolyte caps and for other cap types with C > 10uF
1 kHz and/or 10 kHz for small caps 1 nF ≤ C ≤ 10 µF
I would simply go with the ESR of 1kHz because this is the more interesting frequency area if we are talking about the mid-/highrange crossover point.
The 10kHz can be interesting if you have an application for a super tweeter but usually the ESR values are close between 1 & 10kHz and are better than the tolerances of the speaker in the end 😉
There are resistance losses that are due to frequency, temperature and a part is surely a time related.
If you still hesitating with the accuracy of the measurements than as mentioned before redo the measurement a couple of times with everything untouched and note the values in a table.
There will be variations but they should be minor.
Another thing might be is ageing of the surfaces - means it can improve the situation to use some sandpaper on the first 1-2cm of the cap leads.
More importantto do on coils due to the used varnish but it can be a slight improvement and is a simple method 🙂
Happy experimenting 🤓
a question: with all measued caps with the same capacitance (4.7uF) but diffrent brand, type, voltage....mesured the same ?
so the best manufactured caps are the same in measurements but different in listening ?
Why ?
Is there a method to view the differences also in the measurements ?
so the best manufactured caps are the same in measurements but different in listening ?
Why ?
Is there a method to view the differences also in the measurements ?
Oh this is not my topic. I accept the fact to use non aging MKP types but I don't see any point in buying super expensive ones.
For myself I tried a couple of different brands and accepted defeat due to obviously having not so well trained golden ears.
There are plenty very small factors that can influence the sound eg. the way the foils are rolled, the used dielectric film, especially grade of production but for me only to factors are the most relevant - getting a cap with a correct value and low ESR.
I assume one influencing factor might be the size - the better/best valued caps are usually large. There seems to be something in the area and internal geometry. As you can see alot of guessing but no real evidence 😉
Just to clarify my point of view, I usually don't use expensive speakers and try to keep everything in a modest way.
I like building and trying stuff but as a hobby without trying to find the holy grail.
Just a guess but maybe you find some info on the following page if not already known:
Capacitor Test
For myself I tried a couple of different brands and accepted defeat due to obviously having not so well trained golden ears.
There are plenty very small factors that can influence the sound eg. the way the foils are rolled, the used dielectric film, especially grade of production but for me only to factors are the most relevant - getting a cap with a correct value and low ESR.
I assume one influencing factor might be the size - the better/best valued caps are usually large. There seems to be something in the area and internal geometry. As you can see alot of guessing but no real evidence 😉
Just to clarify my point of view, I usually don't use expensive speakers and try to keep everything in a modest way.
I like building and trying stuff but as a hobby without trying to find the holy grail.
Just a guess but maybe you find some info on the following page if not already known:
Capacitor Test
In passive speaker crossovers you would probably prefer film and foil types vs metallized film for their higher current handling.
Some capacitor measurements as a comparison: https://www-jobst--audio-de.transla...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=de&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
More detailed (only in german, sorry: https://www.jobst-audio.de/images/artikel/kondensator_vergleich_2015_einzel.pdf )
More detailed (only in german, sorry: https://www.jobst-audio.de/images/artikel/kondensator_vergleich_2015_einzel.pdf )
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