Comparing dual standard 12 inch woofers to a 15 inch PA driver.

Hey guys,

Unfortunately there isn't much info on what I am trying to find out. I am planning to build the Visaton 890 MK3 DIY and also am contemplating the "Calpamos" DIY kit from Humblehomemade hifi.

I want to enter the high sensitive, PA style horn mids, fast attack type speaker and believe this type of speaker is the best upgrade from my Troel 3WC. I love punchy tight bass, I want to feel I am in a club, I want to feel the guitar strings in my face. And after plenty of research it seems a PA style speaker is the best for me.

Anyway to add I will be using digital crossovers which will hopefully give me more sensitivity and the ability to use less powerful amps.

Okay, so my question. I am aware that the punch and slam we get from 96db plus sensitive PA speakers is usually from short stroke stiff cones with accordion surrounds.

What would the bass be like on the Visaton 890 if they are using standard 12 inch woofers with rubber surrounds? How does is compare to the 15 inch PA drivers in large boxes such as the calpamos or any other PA speaker for tha matter.

I am aware that with digital crosssover in the mix the dual 12 inch in parralel will go from the 90db sensitivity for a single driver to 96db for the dual but really curious how that slam and punch will be?

Anyway any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
The specs for the Visaton woofers are pretty respectable and will be capable of moving more air than the woofers in the Calpamos kit. With adequate power they will offer more clean output, thump, slam, etc.

Have you considered The Loudspeaker kit by Troels? Similar price with more modern design elements.
The-Loudspeaker

Those are quite expensive...here's a similar design concept for much less but not sure when it will be back in stock.
Denovo Audio Titan-615LX
 
The specs for the Visaton woofers are pretty respectable and will be capable of moving more air than the woofers in the Calpamos kit. With adequate power they will offer more clean output, thump, slam, etc.

Those are quite expensive...here's a similar design concept for much less but not sure when it will be back in stock.
Denovo Audio Titan-615LX


That is great to know, appreciate your response. I also have two 12 inch Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 that will be crossed over at the usual crossover point between 70 and 150hz.

When you say more modern design what do you mean specifically? What is it that the Visaton is lacking?

This looks like a descent option i will look into it.
 
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The problem is most likely in the Troels' speaker voicing and lack of enclosure internal volume for optimal bass contour achievement. The drivers are quite capable. This is the downside of kits in general, you get what designer fancies.


If i was as versed as I am now with DIY and designing enclosures I would of made the 3WC bass cab a massively large closed box. But for now that will remain the way it is and I will upgrade to a larger speaker set.

But yes, your correct, we get what the desiger fancies and its a trade off, we miss the rest....
 

norman bates

Member
2003-11-25 2:28 am
if you want to get pounded, double 15's per side run all the way down, cross at 750-1khz.

part of the pounding is the lack of crossover point bass to mids.

Double 15's pounded me.
Crossing a 12" to the same double 15's 100-150hz, no pounding.
Something to do with phase through crossover.
 
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if you want to get pounded, double 15's per side run all the way down, cross at 750-1khz.

part of the pounding is the lack of crossover point bass to mids.

Double 15's pounded me.
Crossing a 12" to the same double 15's 100-150hz, no pounding.
Something to do with phase through crossover.
I am aware that the 15 inch should be crossed over around the 750 for the chest pounding.

But what do you exactly mean having a lack of crossover point bass to mids?

Well the intended DIY project has dual 12" each side. There has to be some pounding.

I will be using digital crossovers filters no passive crossover.
 
That is great to know, appreciate your response. I also have two 12 inch Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 that will be crossed over at the usual crossover point between 70 and 150hz.

When you say more modern design what do you mean specifically? What is it that the Visaton is lacking?

This looks like a descent option i will look into it.

Not that it's lacking, it's just an older design that doesn't have the even dispersion control of more recent horn designs. It's also expensive for the drivers involved. The Loudspeaker happens to use drivers near or at the the top of their class in every frequency range for a similar price.

What part of the world are you in?
 
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Not that it's lacking, it's just an older design that doesn't have the even dispersion control of more recent horn designs. It's also expensive for the drivers involved. The Loudspeaker happens to use drivers near or at the the top of their class in every frequency range for a similar price.

What part of the world are you in?
Yes, I am trying to get in contact with Visaton to see if there is any way to improve the vertical off axis response with the M300 waveguide I will be DIY ing the waveguide so perhaps its possible. By even dispersion control I am presuming you mean what I just mentioned right? If not then I will look further into it.

The Troel Loudspeaker is very expensive and although the Visaton is at a similar price I will be getting the Visaton parts for cost price also I will be DIYing the M300 and don't need the passive crossover so all in all it will cost me around $1500 for the parts. So hence why i think price to quality ratio is good and i am under impression that im punching above my weight for that money.

I am in Armenia, I have a shipping company that delivers from the US not necessarily cheap but doable.

The Titan 615 looks great I am just hesitant on the 6.5" mid woofer compared to a horn driver and the low crossover point.(which I can change with digital crossovers but want to keep the original design implementation.)

Any other recommendation for around that price for a pair that is a high end chest thumping dynamic super sensitive PA style speaker let me know.
 
A friend (rip) said slam has to do with integration.

Slam dynamics ?
Slam chest pounding ?

Jeff bagby said eminence delta pro 12a has more slam than a driver with shorting rings (10db measurably less distortion), so maybe harmonic distortion adds to slam, he prefered it.

A sharp leading edge may help (think compression drivers).

Chest pounding may have something to do with moving air, distance, and room size.
I think slam is 80-200hz (just my opinion).

I found 2x18 sub worked better than 4x12 sub (same f3, same location), eventhough both had matching sd + xmax.
Maybe a larger driver can flex the air better than a few smaller ones, still working on that one.


Slam is elusive. .
I too have been curious if adding another 12 to what i have, could add more slam.
But i also know from diysoundgroup forum, lifting a midbass module off the floor was bad.

Phase and delay through a crossover point, the distance shifts as the frequence get from 1 side of the crossover as you get close to the crossover point, but that is its own giant discussion.

I assume a 6db crossover could slam, but you still need healthy cone area.

So, i guess i don't know why, lol.

Just observed my double 15 crossed 750hz versus 12" crossed 150hz.
My pair of 3 ways pounded decades ago, maybe 250hz crossover point (using a 15"), 12db slope i think.


I used to have double 15,nothing like it, nothing.
Cross it 24db 750hz to a jbl 2384 horn with a 1.5" compression driver (2432, 2431, or 2435) depending on your budget.

I would shy away from dj speakers because they bass usually rolls off around 100hz and cross way too high to tweet (dispersion problems).
I think double 15 crossed to subs at 100hz can pound, but i am unsure, i have not tried.

I remember decades ago, i had a car audio store turn stuff off, the subs on only, sounded like mud, so slam not from down there.

And my buddy said to remove slam, pull the midrange fuse on a klipsch cornerhorn.

Looking at the titan, the horn loaded midrange should add slam (dynamics), but not sure where they crossover.
I'd get a double 15 over that thing, especially with you using dsp to eq for your taste.
 
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AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
Thump or slam that is a part of the recording, would come from 'integration' if that term means getting the system right. However extra thump or slam is a different question altogether and is something a person might look for when they don't yet have 'integration'.
to see if there is any way to improve the vertical off axis response with the M300 waveguide
Can you describe what 'improve' means to you.
 
Can you describe what 'improve' means to you.[/QUOTE]

Well, already from one of the responses it was mentioned that the horn dispersion is not as controlled as newly designed horn waveguides.

Attached is the vertical directivity pattern of the M300, i am not an expert in interpreting graphs but from my initial research it seems somewhat limited compared to other waveguides.

As I will be DIY the M300(waveguide) that is if I do decide on the Visaton 890 Mk3, I feel as well as from input I have received improving the dispersion would render this system a pretty descent one.

By improve I mean can I get it to compare with other waveguides in terms of off axis response without disrupting the overall design of the speaker with design tweaks to the M300.
 

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Too much trouble trying to change that design. Maybe try ready made horns/waveguides to get decent performance from the start.

Something like this with a good 15" or a couple of 12's will get better overall results once you're crossovers and eq set. Measuring equipment and the knowledge to understand it will go a very long way in achieving satisfying results.
Limmerhorns - 042
Limmerhorns - 870qx

Can use an 18" or a couple 15's with this.
Limmerhorns - 308
 
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Too much trouble trying to change that design. Maybe try ready made horns/waveguides to get decent performance from the start.

Something like this with a good 15" or a couple of 12's will get better overall results once you're crossovers and eq set. Measuring equipment and the knowledge to understand it will go a very long way in achieving satisfying results.
Limmerhorns - 042
Limmerhorns - 870qx

Can use an 18" or a couple 15's with this.
Limmerhorns - 308

Are you recommending keeping the Visaton 890 Mk3 Design and choosing a different waveguide to attach the compression driver such as the one you linked or choosing an overall different design with a better waveguide?

I use Audiolense for my DSP have basic measuring equipment and will be able to measure and eq properly, not professionally but know the basics.

Why I ask the question above is because people have recommended to stick to a proven design without altering it when using software DSP(digital crossovers) What risks am I taking by using a different waveguide on the Visaton? Won't the the DSP fix the frequency curve and compensate for most things?
 
Compensate is a broad term so it can mean so much, but generally I'd say no, you would want to incorporate a new waveguide acoustically. This is an important part of a crossover that has nothing to do with filters, and which filters cannot change.


I won't be able to incorporate it acoustically into the crossover, I know a little about speaker design but not that capable.

So If I have understood correctly.

Its best to choose the design and not alter it. Which leads me to think that the Visaton due to its old horn design is not the best choice.
 
Why I ask the question above is because people have recommended to stick to a proven design without altering it when using software DSP(digital crossovers) What risks am I taking by using a different waveguide on the Visaton? Won't the the DSP fix the frequency curve and compensate for most things?

I believe the design is originally passive? Once you change the crossover to DSP it almost becomes a different speaker thus making more sense to make your own speakers that will be potentially even better.

Making DSP crossovers for the Limmer horns would be no different than making them for the Visaton kit and might be even easier to get good results. It's not hard get sound out of speakers but it's not trivial to get them to sound spectacular. Good news is that there are lots of resources available.

Designing your own woofer boxes wouldn't be terribly difficult. Can always copy plans from various sources. Good prosound drivers will get you what you want and you might be able to get some very good ones at a good price from nearby distributors.
Home
Distributors

There are always powered commercial options that perform very well from JBL, RCF, Yamaha, FBT, and many others.

If you want to stick to design plans have a look at these.
Recommended Enclouse Designs - Beyma
B&C Speakers
Eighteen Sound - Professional loudspeakers

The 2-way designs require a sub for full range performance.
 
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AllenB

Moderator
Paid Member
2008-10-18 11:31 am
Once you change the crossover to DSP it almost becomes a different speaker
I believe that some older designs may have a more basic crossover. Sometimes things can get complicated and so the minimum is done with a passive design. Sometimes it comes down to money. However I don't believe it is due to the DSP itself. It comes down to crossover design.
 
I believe the design is originally passive? Once you change the crossover to DSP it almost becomes a different speaker thus making more sense to make your own speakers that will be potentially even better.

Making DSP crossovers for the Limmer horns would be no different than making them for the Visaton kit and might be even easier to get good results. It's not hard get sound out of speakers but it's not trivial to get them to sound spectacular. Good news is that there are lots of resources available.


Well this is good to hear, so there is potential to add the Limmer horns to the design?

And if this is possible then I see your point, might as well aim for a personalized design, with a choice of my alignment and drivers.

Yes the original is passive.

But if we simplify it potentially, I can use the Visaton 890 as the baseline using the same enclosure with possible personal tweaks(I know enough about enclosure design). Add the Limmer horns for the Mid compression driver(possibly the tweeter as well, I need to look into this more) and experiment with DSP. This could potentially work?

I believe this would be a cross between designing my own speaker and sticking to a design plan.