I’m looking for some small single-cabinet options that will go a bit louder than a PM90, playing down to 80-100hz to meet a handful of TH18.
I’ve seen some people discussing coax HF (eg bms4090) and that seems great for a diy synergy/MEH, maybe with 4x LF.
Before I get too ahead of myself, are there any existing similar threads, or has anybody tried this? I’ve tried search with no luck.
I’ve seen some people discussing coax HF (eg bms4090) and that seems great for a diy synergy/MEH, maybe with 4x LF.
Before I get too ahead of myself, are there any existing similar threads, or has anybody tried this? I’ve tried search with no luck.
"Synergy" horns are conical, they are not as loud for a given cabinet volume as the Peter Morris 90 design, which can reach ~132dB in the 100-650Hz range.
If by a "handful", you mean four XOC1 TH18, for bass heavy music, a pair of PM90 will keep up.
4x10" could go a bit louder than 2x12", but then would outrun a co-ax compression driver in the crossover range ~650Hz. The weight also would probably be too much for pole-mounting.
Don't know of any BMS coax with a 4090 designation.
The HF horn used with a BMS coax in the PM90 also has better loading then a 90 degree conical horn.
The B&C DCX464 coax has a bit more output potential than the BMS 4590 or 4594, but it's low end still can't compete with multiple 4 to 6.5" cone drivers offering far more displacement.
Closest you may find are the references to the DSL J7-95 in this thread:
I think the design approach used in the DSL J7-95 probably not only achieves the highest output density, while also is more cost effective per output than anything with a similar bandwidth.
That said, it's 265 pound weight puts it well past the PM90 "speaker on a stick" category, and into serious rigging- the 140 dB SPL levels it can put out can quickly and easily cause hearing damage.
Art
We have 4 synergy horns 2x12", and mid/high section still has more headroom (even when using 2 per side). Each mid/high consists of DCX354 and 2 5NSM38, midranges have even a bit more more headroom than DCX (quite amaizing IMO). Those speakers get stupid loud tho. We always run out of sub well before tops have even slight issues."Synergy" horns are conical, they are not as loud for a given cabinet volume as the Peter Morris 90 design, which can reach ~132dB in the 100-650Hz range.
If by a "handful", you mean four XOC1 TH18, for bass heavy music, a pair of PM90 will keep up.
View attachment 1404914
4x10" could go a bit louder than 2x12", but then would outrun a co-ax compression driver in the crossover range ~650Hz. The weight also would probably be too much for pole-mounting.
Don't know of any BMS coax with a 4090 designation.
The HF horn used with a BMS coax in the PM90 also has better loading then a 90 degree conical horn.
The B&C DCX464 coax has a bit more output potential than the BMS 4590 or 4594, but it's low end still can't compete with multiple 4 to 6.5" cone drivers offering far more displacement.
Closest you may find are the references to the DSL J7-95 in this thread:
I think the design approach used in the DSL J7-95 probably not only achieves the highest output density, while also is more cost effective per output than anything with a similar bandwidth.
That said, it's 265 pound weight puts it well past the PM90 "speaker on a stick" category, and into serious rigging- the 140 dB SPL levels it can put out can quickly and easily cause hearing damage.
Art
But still we wanted something relatively compact and more powerful, so went 6x10" route. Important thing to note is that this cabinet actually is horn loaded till about 100hz, not like standard synergy horn where low section is only acting similar to ported in lower ranges.
Here are some sims using 10NW76 8ohm drivers, impedance matches closely with original. Few versions were tried as seen on second picture
Hope that is helpful
I have synergy horns with two 12s", four 4NDF34, and DCX464. Like yours, the two 12"s of course can't keep up.
Also have the PM90&60. Their 12" horn loading makes then hard to beat, with a synergy, and still be close to their weight.
The only synergy I've built that can outrun the PM90 down to a 100Hz sub xover, was when I added a pair of 18"s to the one described above.
A brute force solution, large and heavy as heck. The 18"s had no horn loading, with not enough cabinet volume to make reflex ports helpful.
But they did push the box response down to 40Hz convincingly. The box was maybe the most powerful single box main I've experienced (when paired with subs)..other than true big dogs from Danley and others.. It was a little louder even, than my one-box Meyer MTS4a's paired with subs.
Awesome! How much does the box weigh? Size? Do you take the 10"s all the way up the CD?
No, also 6.5" midranges are used, 4 of them total. 8x faital hf108 for CD. Same size as J7 original
We often use martin 215mk3 for kick range, for techno and similar genres.
Regardless, my issue is that we run out of subs well before tops. Pair of any of those tops should be good for 8 th18 subs if not even more IMO, Especially outside with bass heavy content
We often use martin 215mk3 for kick range, for techno and similar genres.
Regardless, my issue is that we run out of subs well before tops. Pair of any of those tops should be good for 8 th18 subs if not even more IMO, Especially outside with bass heavy content
My personal opinion is to build something like 4x10 + DCX464. Crossover should be good at about 700hz. B&C also makes good crossover for DXC464, sadly for DCX354 it looks questionable (measurements at their site look weird?). You get biamp cab with nice output. 10NW76 is good choice and also quite compact and lightweight (3.8kg I believe?) With about 700hz crossover you should get nice balanced maximum output from LF and HF section of box.
The next improvement would be to add 4 4" midranges. It makes box more complex but most certanly improves sound quality and headroom. I run DCX354 from 1200hz and up only for example. My cabs are about 42kg each (2x12" synergy as mentioned above) so you can get some perspective. You could use stands meant for lifting trusses (about 100kg capacity and not too expensive). It would give you about 4m max height, to keep you from destoying ears in front rows 🙂 also some minimal rigging hardware would be required I suppose.
Again IMO you still need a LOT of subs to properly keep up with such high output tops. Coaxial compression drivers are entire different league in terms in output.
The next improvement would be to add 4 4" midranges. It makes box more complex but most certanly improves sound quality and headroom. I run DCX354 from 1200hz and up only for example. My cabs are about 42kg each (2x12" synergy as mentioned above) so you can get some perspective. You could use stands meant for lifting trusses (about 100kg capacity and not too expensive). It would give you about 4m max height, to keep you from destoying ears in front rows 🙂 also some minimal rigging hardware would be required I suppose.
Again IMO you still need a LOT of subs to properly keep up with such high output tops. Coaxial compression drivers are entire different league in terms in output.
You make some serious acoustic horsepower, above anything I've been directly involved with DIY.
Looking forward to how you like your new subs. Can't have too much sub power, huh?
The thing is that (most?) even major manufacturers don't really have such high output compact tops. Well, they might go loud but they just simply lose quality when pushed IMO. Still yet to find some comparable tops.
We just had some Meyers for testing. Frequency response is very very similar but Synergies are more detailed, easier to separate different sounds and more constant about SPL/Quality. Also Meyers are a bit too boomy IMO even with same frequency response. My subjective findings were confirmed by many other skilled listeners and people who work in professional studios.
Synergy green, meyer red
Btw those new subs are amaizing. Maybe it would be more optimal for normal use cases to make something that does not go as low but has a bit higher SPL (like 2x15")
But we often do shows with 30hz content (rap, trap, ...), till have to be tested on events, for now they were only tested at home, in controlled and not extreme spl enviroment.
We just had some Meyers for testing. Frequency response is very very similar but Synergies are more detailed, easier to separate different sounds and more constant about SPL/Quality. Also Meyers are a bit too boomy IMO even with same frequency response. My subjective findings were confirmed by many other skilled listeners and people who work in professional studios.
Synergy green, meyer red
Btw those new subs are amaizing. Maybe it would be more optimal for normal use cases to make something that does not go as low but has a bit higher SPL (like 2x15")
But we often do shows with 30hz content (rap, trap, ...), till have to be tested on events, for now they were only tested at home, in controlled and not extreme spl enviroment.
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If you want to experiment, I have 8 4ndf34 that I bought for exactly this purpose. We really need to link up, seems like we’re working towards the same direction.
Attachments
When designing midranges important things are:
3d printing makes a lot of things much easier...
At this moment I have no interest in making synergy with 4 4" drivers, but could be a fun and really good project. My knowledge is also way more limited compared to folks at DSL, but happy to share my opinions, ideas...
PS I actually have a 3d model 4NDF34 original from b&c. I could model some things for you
And I see you are going for horn loaded subs, maybe consider my BC118 thread?
- size of taps and their position.
- volume in front of the driver, since this works as a bandpass - more volume lower crossover point to CD
- I use closed back (5nsm38) It makes things a bit easier. If you go your driver path you have to make closed back chamber, preferably in the way that it also acts as a heatsink.
3d printing makes a lot of things much easier...
At this moment I have no interest in making synergy with 4 4" drivers, but could be a fun and really good project. My knowledge is also way more limited compared to folks at DSL, but happy to share my opinions, ideas...
PS I actually have a 3d model 4NDF34 original from b&c. I could model some things for you
And I see you are going for horn loaded subs, maybe consider my BC118 thread?
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John White’s modification of Scott Hinson’s MEH could we worth a look: https://www.jwsound.live/designs/jmod
I’m not sure if it gets to the SPL you’re after, but maybe with stronger drivers it might?
I build the original MEH and to my ears it’s sublime 😀
I’m not sure if it gets to the SPL you’re after, but maybe with stronger drivers it might?
I build the original MEH and to my ears it’s sublime 😀
To achieve maximum spl I would recommend horn loading the 10” lower mids/midbass (~80-300hz).
Then use 4x 4” as midranges and a very efficient 1” cd combined in a MEH. this will take a lot of strain off the mids.
That’s why I chose to go with dedicated kicks 😉 of course then you need to place them as close as possible to each other and it’s not a speaker-pole-stand solution..
btw; the subs in the animation are designed by Scott Hinson as well, it’s the double 18 Neman horns. Wanted to build these originally but then found out about your implementation of the bc218 bdeap subs which made me seriously reconsider..
Then use 4x 4” as midranges and a very efficient 1” cd combined in a MEH. this will take a lot of strain off the mids.
That’s why I chose to go with dedicated kicks 😉 of course then you need to place them as close as possible to each other and it’s not a speaker-pole-stand solution..
btw; the subs in the animation are designed by Scott Hinson as well, it’s the double 18 Neman horns. Wanted to build these originally but then found out about your implementation of the bc218 bdeap subs which made me seriously reconsider..
Yes, horn loading midbass is certanly possible. He could just do something similar to J7 but only 4 10" total. Should be easy to modify. But in this case I think it would be a better idea to go 4 5" midranges and DCX. I believe DCX outpreforms any 1" compression driver, I only compared it to faital HF108 and they both sound great but for sure DCX has more displacement and higher sensitivity. Also DSL almost always goes for 1.4" CD when output capability is priority?
Bms has the 5530 1” CD, it says on the spec sheet that it’ll do 132db continuous and 139db peak, which is quite impressive, but I don’t know how much the dcx can do continuous at its lower crossover point. I guess also quite a bit..
DCX has 2 diaphragms. Sensitivity for Hf is 114.3db quoted by b&c. 16ohm variant with 50W AES rating, 100W cont. I use it with 18db/oct highpass at 5khz for HF section
Also consider DCX has more displacement for MF than traditional 3" CDs even tho is also 3" VC. I believe displacement is actually closer to 4" diaphragm CD? We are talking about 354 in this case ofcourse. IMO if low crossover point is not a priority 354 might be better choice than 464.
Also consider DCX has more displacement for MF than traditional 3" CDs even tho is also 3" VC. I believe displacement is actually closer to 4" diaphragm CD? We are talking about 354 in this case ofcourse. IMO if low crossover point is not a priority 354 might be better choice than 464.
the mid section of dcx354 has a sensitivity of 111db and 90w aes rating = 130db
The 5530 has 80w aes and 113db sensitivity = 132db
So I think they could compete if both are to play from 1khz up.
How they sound at these volumes is another question of course 😉
The 5530 has 80w aes and 113db sensitivity = 132db
So I think they could compete if both are to play from 1khz up.
How they sound at these volumes is another question of course 😉
For 16ohm version it should be a bit higher (112.2db). Also look at the graphs, above 1kHz it gets around 114db. This is really important since it is only going to get used in this area mostly.
Also I think is not fair to compare if sensitivity is not measured on exactly the same horn?
Also I think is not fair to compare if sensitivity is not measured on exactly the same horn?