Censorship and other accuses
To whom it may concern,
since a short while we have active moderatorship. We have a public whipping post, called sin bin. We enforce good manners, we intercede against personal attacks and offensive lack of mutual respect. We do censor conduct-wise, no question.
We do not censor content-wise and, no, we are no too trigger-happy, we are still too lenient.
I cannot remember any of us moderators has censored points, posts, threads because of content, no matter how unscientific, unbackupped they were, i cannot remember any snake-oil discussion killed because of the content.
I can remember one of us interceded in cases of dangerous info posted without approrpiate warning and in cases of personal attacks.
Some important issue i want to point out:
we are mostly adults and out forum rules require any member to be atleast 13 for registering and becoming member. This is so for legal reasons and it oes not even cover strict laws of some countries. How can we control if the minor person clicking the "i am 13 ys old" checkmark is already 13 ys old? Worldwide? impossible to control, be assured.
So we have minors on board. We adults should give them an example how to behave as adults and not as spoiled brats.
Then, we also have elders on board (i mean real-life elders and not the misleading diyAudio Elder title) who consider it an insult to even witness any form of ruckus, personal attack and rudeness, not to speak of being the target of such. These elders are most probable of beiong able to deliver experiences we youngsters do not have but may want to learn from.
I do not want those elders to leave and i do not want a bad conscience of minors facing obscenities and leaving or being forced to leave by their parents
The elder may provide forgotten experience and knowledge and the minors may be the source of ceartivity and having weird ideas and as not yet knowing the ideas are impossible, they succeed.
I want all those positive spirits to come, not to leave. I have read comments from new members stating they were lurking for quite a period before registering and praising our forum for happiness, friendlyness, mutal respect and helpful attitude (i express it in my words, but messages were kind of that essence).
The internet is an ocean of anarchy. I want our forum to be an island of sanity and i looks like is is slowly becoming such.
So now i want to adress the statements in the thread the yldouright offense occured and urged me to say what i said above.
SteveG,
I would like to thank you for apologizing for your fellow NYer yldouright, but we both know it would have beem his job to apologize.
Peter Daniel,
and we agree we remove it because otherwise riots occur 
and then blood is boiling and we have have to hand out sin bin for members feelin provoked and shooting back, too. And we do not want that at all.
You cannot make me believe you cannot express your opinion. Particularly you. An opinion is kind of "i feel so and so" and even if you state "i feel you insulted me" this is an unquestionable statement. Although it might be more wise to say "" i feel insulted". By no means acceptable is to post "XYZ continues to post wrong info" this is a straight accuse and worse, it is without backup. As was observable with yldouright.
BTW, recently a lot of smilies were provided and you can use them to spice up your posts and to make the others see how you feel. We moderators do not consider smilies as offense (that is a promise), you are entitled to express how you feel. Except
we have not provided offensive smilies, but we have strived to provide enough smilies to cover all possible "i feel" messages. The "headshot" smilie is so blunt and unreal anybody (hopefully) grasps the jest.
Right! this is no Sunday school. We are mostly adults, see above and should behave as such. And the better that works out without the moderators having to step in, the better!
BTW, we moderators too wood like to partiipate as members and share discussions. Instead of cleaning up messes.
Spirit indeed has changed. When i came to diyAudio last January, it was a happy place. When i among a few was appointed moderator and Grey resigned, the forum was slowly but surely going into pieces. IMO, but i was not the only one having that opinion.
Now we have obvious moderator presence and actions. I leave it up to you all if we act arbitrarily, if we favour some and punish others. But, as mentioned above, the forum is again (slowly) becoming the happy place it once was.
See above, Peter, smilies and "i feel insulted" topic. Okok, AudioFreak could have stated "i feel insulted" instead of demanding apology. Would have been more wise probably. But even then the uninvolved moderator had demanded apology. He stepped aside and let a fellow moderator handle it as he was involved.
Let us look at it in a slighlty differnt way: AudioFreak is not only mod, he also is fellow member and fellow human being. And he felt insulted, accused. I looked for history, partricular for struggles
between him and yldouright and did not find anything. AudioFreak being yldouright's pet enemy does not give yldouright the right to behave like a rat in a bucket.
Fully agreed, Peter!!
A real man stands by his faults. Admits them, apologizes appropriately. Only a weakling cannot afford to admit he was wrong.
SteveG,
Fully agreed!
Of course, none of us moderator would admit publicly he is the wrong man for the job Social skills and constructive spirit are the vital point for any sort of moderation. But we do care that moderators in charge know to a certain extent what we are talking about and do not goof around content-wise. Just, we can only work with what we have, any of us, and make the best out of it. Does that suit you?
All,
comments invited, but please do not expect me to respond before 09-12-02 18 CEST; i am writing form abroad and have limited web access.
To whom it may concern,
since a short while we have active moderatorship. We have a public whipping post, called sin bin. We enforce good manners, we intercede against personal attacks and offensive lack of mutual respect. We do censor conduct-wise, no question.
We do not censor content-wise and, no, we are no too trigger-happy, we are still too lenient.
I cannot remember any of us moderators has censored points, posts, threads because of content, no matter how unscientific, unbackupped they were, i cannot remember any snake-oil discussion killed because of the content.
I can remember one of us interceded in cases of dangerous info posted without approrpiate warning and in cases of personal attacks.
Some important issue i want to point out:
we are mostly adults and out forum rules require any member to be atleast 13 for registering and becoming member. This is so for legal reasons and it oes not even cover strict laws of some countries. How can we control if the minor person clicking the "i am 13 ys old" checkmark is already 13 ys old? Worldwide? impossible to control, be assured.
So we have minors on board. We adults should give them an example how to behave as adults and not as spoiled brats.
Then, we also have elders on board (i mean real-life elders and not the misleading diyAudio Elder title) who consider it an insult to even witness any form of ruckus, personal attack and rudeness, not to speak of being the target of such. These elders are most probable of beiong able to deliver experiences we youngsters do not have but may want to learn from.
I do not want those elders to leave and i do not want a bad conscience of minors facing obscenities and leaving or being forced to leave by their parents
The elder may provide forgotten experience and knowledge and the minors may be the source of ceartivity and having weird ideas and as not yet knowing the ideas are impossible, they succeed.
I want all those positive spirits to come, not to leave. I have read comments from new members stating they were lurking for quite a period before registering and praising our forum for happiness, friendlyness, mutal respect and helpful attitude (i express it in my words, but messages were kind of that essence).
The internet is an ocean of anarchy. I want our forum to be an island of sanity and i looks like is is slowly becoming such.
So now i want to adress the statements in the thread the yldouright offense occured and urged me to say what i said above.
SteveG,
'fraid i cannot look at it the same way, of course i am biased (but impartial, so i hope), but i have numbers of member count increase and also count of leaving memebers has decreased.
I would like to thank you for apologizing for your fellow NYer yldouright, but we both know it would have beem his job to apologize.
Peter Daniel,
please read the above. A lot of cleanup happens because a moderator senses smoke or a ticking
and we agree we remove it because otherwise riots occur and then blood is boiling and we have have to hand out sin bin for members feelin provoked and shooting back, too. And we do not want that at all.You cannot make me believe you cannot express your opinion. Particularly you. An opinion is kind of "i feel so and so" and even if you state "i feel you insulted me" this is an unquestionable statement. Although it might be more wise to say "" i feel insulted". By no means acceptable is to post "XYZ continues to post wrong info" this is a straight accuse and worse, it is without backup. As was observable with yldouright.
BTW, recently a lot of smilies were provided and you can use them to spice up your posts and to make the others see how you feel. We moderators do not consider smilies as offense (that is a promise), you are entitled to express how you feel. Except
we have not provided offensive smilies, but we have strived to provide enough smilies to cover all possible "i feel" messages. The "headshot" smilie is so blunt and unreal anybody (hopefully) grasps the jest.Right! this is no Sunday school. We are mostly adults, see above and should behave as such. And the better that works out without the moderators having to step in, the better!
BTW, we moderators too wood like to partiipate as members and share discussions. Instead of cleaning up messes.
Spirit indeed has changed. When i came to diyAudio last January, it was a happy place. When i among a few was appointed moderator and Grey resigned, the forum was slowly but surely going into pieces. IMO, but i was not the only one having that opinion.
Now we have obvious moderator presence and actions. I leave it up to you all if we act arbitrarily, if we favour some and punish others. But, as mentioned above, the forum is again (slowly) becoming the happy place it once was.
See above, Peter, smilies and "i feel insulted" topic. Okok, AudioFreak could have stated "i feel insulted" instead of demanding apology. Would have been more wise probably. But even then the uninvolved moderator had demanded apology. He stepped aside and let a fellow moderator handle it as he was involved.
Let us look at it in a slighlty differnt way: AudioFreak is not only mod, he also is fellow member and fellow human being. And he felt insulted, accused. I looked for history, partricular for struggles
between him and yldouright and did not find anything. AudioFreak being yldouright's pet enemy does not give yldouright the right to behave like a rat in a bucket.
Fully agreed, Peter!!
A real man stands by his faults. Admits them, apologizes appropriately. Only a weakling cannot afford to admit he was wrong.
SteveG,
Fully agreed!
Of course, none of us moderator would admit publicly he is the wrong man for the job
Social skills and constructive spirit are the vital point for any sort of moderation. But we do care that moderators in charge know to a certain extent what we are talking about and do not goof around content-wise. Just, we can only work with what we have, any of us, and make the best out of it. Does that suit you? All,
comments invited, but please do not expect me to respond before 09-12-02 18 CEST; i am writing form abroad and have limited web access.
snip ponderously lengthy section of the kind of self-obsessed vainglorious nonsense that is strangling this forum
: 
(etc)
What never? Under no circumstances?
Interesting .. ... : Does this mean you are all weaklings?
One thing I do congratulate you on is moving this to the everything else forum. If only every would take their spats here and leave the threads for stuff of interest to people other than the pugilists themselves. A "fight" forum, perhaps?
:
(etc)What never? Under no circumstances?
Interesting .. ... :
Does this mean you are all weaklings?One thing I do congratulate you on is moving this to the everything else forum. If only every would take their spats here and leave the threads for stuff of interest to people other than the pugilists themselves. A "fight" forum, perhaps?
You hope, but you aren't. Your simplistic "no we aren't" statement is no answer. You indeed have moderated content, and you may be the worst offender of all in that respect. (see the DIY turntable thread). In short, I give up on this board. You guys (moderators) suck! I am done with this bulls***.
former member
SteveG
Maybe...
Calling names...
In portuguese it's simple. In raw translation "Go call that to your mother".
I'm not intend to hurt anyone, just translating. It's one thing I've seen in some forums, with ***.
I've learned one thing: everybody has the right to have it's own opinion about anything. If you disagree, post your opinion without calling him any name.
Is like that, dice45?
Pedro Martins
Calling names...
In portuguese it's simple. In raw translation "Go call that to your mother".
I'm not intend to hurt anyone, just translating. It's one thing I've seen in some forums, with ***.
I've learned one thing: everybody has the right to have it's own opinion about anything. If you disagree, post your opinion without calling him any
name.Is like that, dice45?
Pedro Martins
It must mean something that this thread started on 9-11.
If nothing else it emphasises the fact that ours is not perfect world
. That is a fact of life. No more no less.
This means it will never be possible to have a community (real or virtual ) in perfect harmony. It is important to at least try to keep it as agreable as possible, but at the same time there will always be differences of opinion between us (about the issues at hand but also about their presentation).
When somebody gets upset by a post I often think: Come on it wasn't that bad, don't take it so personally. But it happened to me as well (see DIY TT thread) and I too spent valuable time complaining
. However a week later I think it would have been better not to have reacted the way I did. Not because I think I was wrong but simply because it is of no use. It only gets in the way of the real issues we try to address.
Of course first of all everybody should strive to make their contributions constructive and positive but if you read a post that isn't consider to let it go and only answer the real issues at hand. I expect that most of these quarrels will go away a lot sooner. To me this means be positive and try to interpret other peoples actions in a positive way until proven otherwise.
The www is a wonderful thing but being on it it is very difficult to express yourself in such a way that you don't offend, simply because you can't see each other. Though I feel the smilies go a long way in curing this 
.
I consider the fact that we have moderators as something inevitable as total anarchy is no alternative. But eventhough I think that on the whole they are doing a fine and moderate job I sometimes feel they could be even more moderate and let things go the way they go even longer
. If only to minimise accusations of abuse of power.
Love and peace to you all.
If nothing else it emphasises the fact that ours is not perfect world
. That is a fact of life. No more no less.This means it will never be possible to have a community (real or virtual ) in perfect harmony. It is important to at least try to keep it as agreable as possible, but at the same time there will always be differences of opinion between us (about the issues at hand but also about their presentation).
When somebody gets upset by a post I often think: Come on it wasn't that bad, don't take it so personally. But it happened to me as well (see DIY TT thread) and I too spent valuable time complaining
. However a week later I think it would have been better not to have reacted the way I did. Not because I think I was wrong but simply because it is of no use. It only gets in the way of the real issues we try to address. Of course first of all everybody should strive to make their contributions constructive and positive but if you read a post that isn't consider to let it go and only answer the real issues at hand. I expect that most of these quarrels will go away a lot sooner. To me this means be positive and try to interpret other peoples actions in a positive way until proven otherwise.
The www is a wonderful thing but being on it it is very difficult to express yourself in such a way that you don't offend, simply because you can't see each other. Though I feel the smilies go a long way in curing this
.I consider the fact that we have moderators as something inevitable as total anarchy is no alternative. But eventhough I think that on the whole they are doing a fine and moderate job I sometimes feel they could be even more moderate and let things go the way they go even longer
. If only to minimise accusations of abuse of power.Love and peace to you all.
As usually, Bernhard, you handled the situation really well. My previous statements were not the voice of anger but rather an attempt to see how others feel about moderating the forum.
I agree with Peterr's observation:
"I consider the fact that we have moderators as something inevitable as total anarchy is no alternative. But eventhough I think that on the whole they are doing a fine and moderate job I sometimes feel they could be even more moderate and let things go the way they go even longer. If only to minimise accusations of abuse of power."
As to SteveG's remarks, I find them always funny (like Geoff's departure) and a lack of maturity.
And BTW, I still tend to believe in anarchy.
I agree with Peterr's observation:
"I consider the fact that we have moderators as something inevitable as total anarchy is no alternative. But eventhough I think that on the whole they are doing a fine and moderate job I sometimes feel they could be even more moderate and let things go the way they go even longer. If only to minimise accusations of abuse of power."
As to SteveG's remarks, I find them always funny (like Geoff's departure) and a lack of maturity.
And BTW, I still tend to believe in anarchy.
Attachments
Bernhard,
Perhaps you felt the place was going to hell a while back. I don't agree. But what I have noticed lately is that it's as boring as hell now, and private correspondance with a few other members have shown that I'm not alone in feeling this.
To date I feel the moderation has been more of a disadvantage than an advantage to the site. Whilst the bad language has been removed, moderation wasn't required to do this, as Jason has installed script to do it automatically. That is the only benefit I've seen since Grey's reign as moderator has concluded. I felt he was very even-handed and appropriate in his handling of issues, usually.
What is missing now is the vibrancy that the place once had, which is a tragedy.
Brett
PS: I <b>HATE</b> all the stupid smilies. They make the posts look like some sort of demented video game, are overused or misused by many and speak no emotional content at all.
Perhaps you felt the place was going to hell a while back. I don't agree. But what I have noticed lately is that it's as boring as hell now, and private correspondance with a few other members have shown that I'm not alone in feeling this.
To date I feel the moderation has been more of a disadvantage than an advantage to the site. Whilst the bad language has been removed, moderation wasn't required to do this, as Jason has installed script to do it automatically. That is the only benefit I've seen since Grey's reign as moderator has concluded. I felt he was very even-handed and appropriate in his handling of issues, usually.
What is missing now is the vibrancy that the place once had, which is a tragedy.
Brett
PS: I <b>HATE</b> all the stupid smilies. They make the posts look like some sort of demented video game, are overused or misused by many and speak no emotional content at all.
Brett said:
I also like vibrancy and stimulations and total freedom. I wish this forum could be like AA:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/51513.html
Apart from being vibrant, that link is quite entertaining as well. But hurry up and check it out, it may get deleted soon.
Like AA <i>used</i> to be would be even better. In some of the forums like Vinyl, the average IQ of posts has dropped below room temperature (there are a few exceptions), and HiRez is just hilarious. Tubes, Tube DIY, High Eff speaks and Bottlehead are the only places worth visiting.Peter Daniel said:
I also like vibrancy and stimulations and total freedom. I wish this forum could be like AA:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/51513.html
Interesting that you cite AA as a site for freedom of expression. The moderators there delete and edit posts, or move them to the obnoxiously named Whiners Woad, especially if they conflict with the site's or advertiser's agenda. Oh, and they have pages and pages of rules. Even with that, it's still more interesting than here, which is not something I would have said 3 months back. Sad.
When the new moderation was to be implemented here, I said there should be caution that it didn't end up like the Audiogon forums, which once-upon-a-time were interesting and vibrant. Now they're tame. I can see it's happening here too.
I'm not really familiar with AA, because I spend most of my time here. I just accidentally found that post when I was looking for info on DACs and was suprised with a language tolerance. At least it is still not deleted, which would be unthinkable here.
This whole approach to controlling freedom of expression reminds me of a Howard Stern movie, "Private Parts". Whenever somebody tries to impose rules and regulations the resistance and disatisfaction is inevitable. So to achieve proper balance and keep everybodys happy, true moderation should be maintained. And that's not always an easy task
Wow, this was heavy!
I praise the moderators in their job to keep the classs in order but how big is the problem really if we talk statisticly? Small hopefully, but the number counts not the number of polite postings. I like the nice and helpful touch of (most of) the members. I also think it's OK to have a visible "skamvrå" as we say in Sweden. It shows as an example how we should not behave.
Skam is shame and vrå is corner in a room. The noty boy or girl had to stand in the corner of the classroom at the front with the face towards the wall and think about their bad behavoir and get better. It was common in school to late 50' but I don't know if it exists today?
I praise the moderators in their job to keep the classs in order but how big is the problem really if we talk statisticly? Small hopefully, but the number counts not the number of polite postings. I like the nice and helpful touch of (most of) the members. I also think it's OK to have a visible "skamvrå" as we say in Sweden. It shows as an example how we should not behave.
Skam is shame and vrå is corner in a room. The noty boy or girl had to stand in the corner of the classroom at the front with the face towards the wall and think about their bad behavoir and get better. It was common in school to late 50' but I don't know if it exists today?
I think little things like the unfortunate "editing" of Rodd Yamashita's name (->Yama****a, since fixed?) are an example of the unintended consequences of censorship.
In general, I think the idea of temporary bans is reasonable (if a bit heavy handed in its current application) and I see how locking threads is reasonable when discussion has degraded to the point where no useful information is resulting. (again, this is a high standard!) Censorship--the deletion of posts--is not IMHO a good thing though. It removes any sense of accountibility from the moderators, and is generally confusing to the readers.
In general, I think the idea of temporary bans is reasonable (if a bit heavy handed in its current application) and I see how locking threads is reasonable when discussion has degraded to the point where no useful information is resulting. (again, this is a high standard!) Censorship--the deletion of posts--is not IMHO a good thing though. It removes any sense of accountibility from the moderators, and is generally confusing to the readers.
Censorship etc
I have a few observations after all these posts:
- "Vibrancy" I am not that long a member, but it seems to me that the mood, if you will, changes all the time. Some times there are days with a lot of interesting posts, then there are days where nothing really happens. Isn't that like in real life? Those members of long standing, do you really see a general downward trend, or does it bounce up and down all the time? I don't detect a general downturn personally.
- Naughty/bad behavior, I want to make a difference between "naughty" words (f**ck, sh*t etc) and personal attacks. I have no problem with the words, its what we all hear all day. It is beyond me why we all of a sudden, because we are at a terminal, need to radically change our normal mode of conversation. And don't tell me it is bad for those 13 year olds. Watching the average TV-channel should cure you quickly of that, or at least show you the futility to try to protect the brats. Do we really think that the word f**ck does more harm than the average Die Hard movie? You got to be kidding!
{Off topic etc, 2 seemingly unrelated facts: (1) US tries to keep words like sh**t, ******, m**her******r, birth control, hidden from anyone below the age of 32, (2) US has teen pregnancy rates on a par with 3rd world countries. Go ahead, shoot me. Then think about it.}
- Personal attacks. Unexcusable. We are here to exchange info and experiences so everyone benefits. Calling names or making insinuations about someones heritance is a nono and as far as I am concerned a reason for the sin bin. And someone who shows this behaviour I cannot trust in his technical judgement because he apparently is driven by emotions and not objective argumentys.
Jan Didden
I have a few observations after all these posts:
- "Vibrancy" I am not that long a member, but it seems to me that the mood, if you will, changes all the time. Some times there are days with a lot of interesting posts, then there are days where nothing really happens. Isn't that like in real life? Those members of long standing, do you really see a general downward trend, or does it bounce up and down all the time? I don't detect a general downturn personally.
- Naughty/bad behavior, I want to make a difference between "naughty" words (f**ck, sh*t etc) and personal attacks. I have no problem with the words, its what we all hear all day. It is beyond me why we all of a sudden, because we are at a terminal, need to radically change our normal mode of conversation. And don't tell me it is bad for those 13 year olds. Watching the average TV-channel should cure you quickly of that, or at least show you the futility to try to protect the brats. Do we really think that the word f**ck does more harm than the average Die Hard movie? You got to be kidding!
{Off topic etc, 2 seemingly unrelated facts: (1) US tries to keep words like sh**t, ******, m**her******r, birth control, hidden from anyone below the age of 32, (2) US has teen pregnancy rates on a par with 3rd world countries. Go ahead, shoot me. Then think about it.}
- Personal attacks. Unexcusable. We are here to exchange info and experiences so everyone benefits. Calling names or making insinuations about someones heritance is a nono and as far as I am concerned a reason for the sin bin. And someone who shows this behaviour I cannot trust in his technical judgement because he apparently is driven by emotions and not objective argumentys.
Jan Didden
Censorship
Peter, you got me thinking on this one!
You put up an example for many of us by saying, ok, I'm sorry.
Buuuut...
Do you now feel that his behaviour was not immature?
Were your comments inappropriate?
Did you make a mistake?
Jan Didden
Peter Daniel said:I'd like to apologize to SteveG for calling his behaviour immature.
He seemed to be very touched by my inappropriate comments (what I conclude from his e-mail). Anybody see how easy it is to fix ones mistake?
Peter, you got me thinking on this one!
You put up an example for many of us by saying, ok, I'm sorry.
Buuuut...
Do you now feel that his behaviour was not immature?
Were your comments inappropriate?
Did you make a mistake?
Jan Didden
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