Unfortunately, my old Technics SL-MC4 is dying. So, I looked around for replacement, probably DVD, with good DAC, more than 3 buttons on the front panel (not just stop, play and pause, but FF and FB also) and internal display, that can show some navigation through directories. And I could not find any. There were some interesting models from Panasonic and Pioneer some time ago, but they all seem to be discontinued.
I would like to stay within $100 and get a decent audio quality.
Is it possible?
I would like to stay within $100 and get a decent audio quality.
Is it possible?
No
The clock architecture of multiplayers is such that the audio clock jitter is horrible to get decent sound quality.
best
It sure would be nice to have a display that at least showed a 'calendar' of tracks, but even this seems asking too much. And are companies even making new DVD players now that Blu-Ray is taking hold?
This doesn't fill your requirements, but I'm thinking of getting the new Panasonic DMP-BD65K (~$120) which can also stream Netflix, then doing the easy PS and analog audio output op amp upgrades, and see where that gets me. If it is still not great, then I'd have an excuse to build a DAC kit....
This doesn't fill your requirements, but I'm thinking of getting the new Panasonic DMP-BD65K (~$120) which can also stream Netflix, then doing the easy PS and analog audio output op amp upgrades, and see where that gets me. If it is still not great, then I'd have an excuse to build a DAC kit....
Panasonic is probably a good choice for home theatre. Good overall product + Netflix. But just for sound? And very few controls on front panel. It is not so convenient for stand alone sound player.
What do you think of Pioneer Dv610av-k.
DVDA and SACD are nice features. It would be interesting to figure-out, what DAC is used in this Pioneer.
Speaking about clock architecture, do you mean PLL?
What's the problem to design low noise PLL? Or it's just the fact that manufactures are not paying attention to it? Do you have data for jitter in those players?
What do you think of Pioneer Dv610av-k.
DVDA and SACD are nice features. It would be interesting to figure-out, what DAC is used in this Pioneer.
Speaking about clock architecture, do you mean PLL?
What's the problem to design low noise PLL? Or it's just the fact that manufactures are not paying attention to it? Do you have data for jitter in those players?
DVD players have a 27 MHz master clock for video. Silicon based synthesizers derive audio clocks. These do jitter, way too much. A secondary PLL using a crystal based voltage controlled oscillator solves the problem. But it will raise the price consistently. Unfortunately, these architectures have become an industry standard hence also expensive DVD players suffer from similar problems.
Conclusion: If you want decent audio playback, stay away from multi-players. An alternative could be the use of a decent exetrnal DAC: One that is designed with high jitter immunity.
best
Thanks for explanation. So, as a possible upgrade, external DAC with good clock recovery. Are there any data for jitter requirements to be met? I mean, some blind testing, showing hearing limits of jitter? This may be DAC related, but at least some data to set the reasonable target.
We are around 1ps (>10Hz) and still notice improvements when going below 1ps. These figures are seldomly met by normal equipment, let alone gear with price tags of 100 euro.
If you are looking for "cheap" but decent playback, look at an NAD C541 for example.
best
We are around 1ps (>10Hz) and still notice improvements when going below 1ps. These figures are seldomly met by normal equipment, let alone gear with price tags of 100 euro.
If you are looking for "cheap" but decent playback, look at an NAD C541 for example.
best
That is true only for el-cheapo DVD players. The ones that are serious have independent clocks and some kind of SRC/upsampling in between...
I have two Denon DVD playes that have that - DVD 2910 and 2930, and the sound is way better than my old Phillips CD player based on TDA1541 (that has the "right" clock).
The fact that is sounds better than "an other player" does not say anything about the Denon quality. The back-end of most (if not all) Philips players is lousy, clean it up and you may be surprised.
Anyhow, the 2910 has a synthesizer that generates the audio clock from 27MHz crystal. The audio clock is truly horrible, 30 to 40 dB more jitter than an average decent crystal oscillator.
best
Guido, I don't deny importance of your work - heck I would like one of those clocks if I could afford them!
But there are cases when the jitter from a DVD optical unit send to the DAC (via a DSP/SRC) is not bigger than a CD optical unit. Of course, always can do better with a super clock like yours, but that is not what a regular CD player has originally.
Denon DVD-2910 audio clock (via Analog Devices DSP) - dedicated 18.75MHz. Processing is just for PCM, DSD is derived still from video clock - but is not so sensitive to jitter as PCM.
Denon DVD-2930 audio clock - dedicated 25MHz. Processing in DSP is more advanced (AL24).
But there are cases when the jitter from a DVD optical unit send to the DAC (via a DSP/SRC) is not bigger than a CD optical unit. Of course, always can do better with a super clock like yours, but that is not what a regular CD player has originally.
Denon DVD-2910 audio clock (via Analog Devices DSP) - dedicated 18.75MHz. Processing is just for PCM, DSD is derived still from video clock - but is not so sensitive to jitter as PCM.
Denon DVD-2930 audio clock - dedicated 25MHz. Processing in DSP is more advanced (AL24).
Last edited:
Hi Begemot,
I have Pioneer DV-656A on e-bay for sale right now for $25. very decent audio tract for the money.
Check it out
Pioneer DV-656A DVD Player - eBay (item 230566853580 end time Dec-31-10 20:21:14 PST)
I have Pioneer DV-656A on e-bay for sale right now for $25. very decent audio tract for the money.
Check it out
Pioneer DV-656A DVD Player - eBay (item 230566853580 end time Dec-31-10 20:21:14 PST)
It has. Maybe you overlooked that Analog Devices DSP that is on the PCM data stream. DVD-3910:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I can put in an enthusiastic vote for the Pioneer DV-656A(aka DV-45A). It's a HUGELY reliable laser & mech, and this generation of Pioneers, from 656A up to the DV-79avi(which has wonderful OPA2134A output opamps stock), are shockingly great sounding cd players even in stock form, and can be upgraded fairly easily to be even better.
unfortunately, from DV-46AV, DV600, etc. forward, Pioneer went to a MUCH LESS reliable laser maker. So, until I see that change, anyone asking me for a cheap but terrific cd player gets the strongest recommendation for the DV-45A & it's brothers. There is not a new dvd or even blu-ray player from any maker on the market that I could recommend, reliability-wise(which is as important to me as sound quality).
unfortunately, from DV-46AV, DV600, etc. forward, Pioneer went to a MUCH LESS reliable laser maker. So, until I see that change, anyone asking me for a cheap but terrific cd player gets the strongest recommendation for the DV-45A & it's brothers. There is not a new dvd or even blu-ray player from any maker on the market that I could recommend, reliability-wise(which is as important to me as sound quality).
What ADI DSP has to do with clock jitter? Clock jitter is a hardware related item. To have a good jitter, it is necessary to start with a good crystal itself, then it requires good and low noise front end (input buffer/comparator), and proper design of direct or indirect (PLL) clock architecture. ADI DSP is used for signal processing. It may use it's clock to do generate reference clock, but why it is better than just hardware based clock solution? DSP needs clock for it's internal operation. Quality of these clocks is not really very high.
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.